Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Georgia Giant Put to the Test?

Firstly Deb is correct that the conversion for grains to ppm (mg/L) is 17.1. My memory is getting foggy and I should have double checked before posting. I will edit my post above and fix my error.

I think Deb is probably correct about algal decay in sample transet and it caused increased ammonia. I think ammonia concentration is okay in Gators pond. To check if it will support fish put a small fish or two in a minnow bucket and put in the pond to be stocked. If fish live for two days pond is okay to be stocked.

I think I have had a lightbulb, maybe! I have been perplexed for awhile on this gpg versus ppm thing so I pulled out the Hach manual again just now. It does say to count the drops then multiply by 17 (or 17.1). Gator only required 1 drop before complete color change, which when multiplied by 17.1 would give the low ppm reading.
What am I missing here? I feel really ignorant on this topic (but I want things to be done right) so any help would be appreciated.
If Gator is really at 17 (or 17.1), then we need to raise him for optimum growth. Only problem will be the high ammonia levels with lime.
Thanks ML for offering to help on the local test. Maybe this will shed a bit more light. Lord knows I will benefit from it.

Deb

By the way, I noticed before that others were using some type of digital equipment when on site. Does that measure in ppm or gpg? Greg had stated 20 ppm as ideal, but could he have meant gpg of 20 x 17.1 = 342 ppm? See, told you I was confused. Give me fish, genetics, or bacteria and I am ok, but this stuff.....
Cody are you out there? Bruce? Anyone?

Is there a field tester for Ammonia?

Bill, the pond was supporting fish up until I applied the Rotenone this week. I killed off hundreds of 1” – 3” HBG.

FYI, I took the sample before the Rotenone treatment.

Gator

Hey Gator-
There sure is a test for ammonia. We offer one (through Hach) for $69.00 plus shipping, but you might find something more local (save shipping charges). I think that it would be a great idea for you to have one, that way you can continue to monitor levels once you restock as well as having the accurate results right now. The test is very simple (I can use it )

Deb

OK I have been out on lakes. Deb we are on good terms I will try to keep it this way so please hear me out I mean no disrespect but this whole thing is starting to make sense to me.

1. First we disagree on what is recommend for pond mgmt, I thought this was the case but you seemed to think it was the diff in gpg or ppm. You are indeed reporting ppm. IN aquaculture it might be that you want hardness/alk above 100 ppm or more. In pond mgmt most agree( I think) you want it above 20 ppm. IN GA I rarely see it above 10-12 naturally without lime. Now just last week hit a spot in NW GA htat had 180 so there are exceptions. Also guess what there is a high limetsone area near Alapha. This makes for a great sitaution for you to grow fish. However IS NOT NECESSARY for hardness to be this high to grow fish in a sportfish pond. It needs to be above 20 ppm for many reaons (limited time here) but no dramtic reason to get it to 100 ppm. EXCEPT with HSB I think it is real improtant to have high hardnes and the reason I feel we have limited success with survivial in many GA ponds. We can talk about this later but ask and most will tell you 20 ppm is what to strive for.

2. What are you reporting...17 ppm if his water is similiar to ML's. It is not 300's.

3. You are using a Very basic kit. Like I said almost all water in GA is less than 20 ppm. So the dropper method is very inaccurate. I use a diigital titraotr and depending on reagents can report to within 0.1 ppm with accuracy. Deb there are other cheap kits that have a conversion of 4 drops/ppm that would be big improvement.

4. What does he need to do. ML is doing exactly what I tell clients here if they have less than 20 ppm alkalinity.. add 4 tons of aglime.

5. Ammonia...you may have stumbled onto what I also disagree with in a major way. I have never seen a sportfish pond have a fish kill from Ammonia! I used to check it reguarly and have never had a reading as high as you just got. Ammonia is an issue moslty in aquaculture situation. I guess with the high numbers you rec. it could come into play. ANyone else want to explain this better to Deb. I know the catalog has a big full page that states "Ammonia is the number one cause of fish deaths". This is another one of those deceptive deals. This is probably true (I don't know) in aquaculture but Deb this is NOT the #1 cause of fish deaths a fishin' pond.

6. Why the high ammonia reading? Deb I believe you. I know you are not lying and probbaly folks in the pat have had high ammonia levels by the time the sample is tested but feel this is a "false positive". I'm guessing but bet the ammonia level for the pond in question is fine something happens as stated by Cody to the sample for it to read this high. Maybe there are testing procdures that can be improved? Deb I appreciate you trying to learn this stuff. I hope this will help use start to understand our recommendaitons better.

Gator :

We may have missed the boat by not starting with a soil test of the pond bottom. They are usualy done by your state Coop. Ext. Service. Very cheap here and they outline and test soil for for pond matters. $6 last time I had one done. Check on that with your county agent. It will give you a good baseline to work from. ewest

No Greg, you are right! I do feel things have taken a turn for our "relationship", but I am still very confused. You are listing 20 ppm, but Bruce quoted earlier today the following:

"Quote from "Culture and Propogation of Striped Bass and it's Hybrids" edited by Harrell, Kerby and Minton states the following:

"It is generally accepted that water with a total hardness greater than 150 ppm is very good for phase I culture. Under hatcherty conditions, excellent phase I crops have been reared in fresh water ranging in hardness from 60-600 ppm".

"Stress problems resulting in mortality have also occurred in striped bass and hybrids when handling fish transferred from hard water to very soft water. Hybrids are somewhat more tolerant than striped bass to soft water, but should not be subjected to radical changes in water hardness".

That said, my hardness in all of my ponds ranges from 400-480 ppm so it's not an issue for me. I couldn't find any other references as to minimum hardness needed for HSB survival." - Bruce C.

See why I am still running in circles with this. As I stated before we do not have the ability to run the in field tests like you all do, so our Hach testing procedure is what we use. I see where variables need to be noted, and again am learning. But I am getting some conflicting info. I mentioned once before that we might need to put our heads together to combine forces...any thoughts there !

Thanks to everyone! (Good point ewest)

Deb

Deb, that is the diff. that quote is for HSB. This is majorly diff than sportfish mgmt. Pleae can others quote there desired alk level for Deb so she will think it is not just me. If you read my post I said it needs to be high for HSB. IN fact I'm trying to raise HSB so they will not have dramatic diff in hardness when we stock them.

Deb, no diff. I feel stock/mgmt goes hand in hand. IN fact I state all the time to have a good pond to meet goals...Start off first with good stocking then maintain with good mgmt.

You folks do manage ponds via your product sells!

I understand you do not check the WQ in field that does not mean you can not get a good (more accurate) test kit in the lab. Alk/Hardness should not change in the sample sent to you. Any thought on what I said about ammonia?

Hey, I promise I am not trying to be hard headed but even ewest made the following comment:

"From what I understand Gator's land is in the pine belt and has acid soil. I would expect that if ag lime has not been added the alka. reading is 17 mg/L or 17 on a standard Hatch kit test, which is low."

That is why I am still confused!!! So yes, please let's have some weigh in from others on desired total hardness and total alkalinity readings in ppm. Lord I am glad we are not married. One of us might be in the bottom of a pond right now ! You know I am kidding!

As for the ammonia, I do disagree. I have done too many tests from people who brought in a water sample within a few hours of taking it, and they had really high numbers (even up in the 3.0 areas). These were not all from ponds we stocked either. The customers were experiencing drastic fish kills, and under microscopic evaluation I found ruptured vessels in the gill filaments. Once treated with microblift for three to four weeks, the ammonia numbers were drastically reduced. I still stand by high ammonia and low DO levels running neck and neck with high fish kills. Ammonia levels run high for various reasons (Cody can further this if he wishes) like organic decay, fertilizer runoff, fish death, excess feed...

Thanks for helping me keep this friendly!

Deb

OK, heading out, Deb ewest comfirmed what I said 17 ppm is low. Bring it up to well above 20 ppm with 4 tons lime and once back down below that level after a few years bring it back up. I think Deb when others find this they will add their comments.

YOu realize you can drop the gpg, you are reporting it in ppm. I used to use the same test years ago. Actually all you are saying with one drop is that his alkalinity is less than 17 ppm. Actual results can not be determined with that test kit, it may be 10ppm??

Deb, I hope BOb LUsk chimes in, I'm curious to see his and others take on ammonia. Do you understand the nitrogen cycle? SOme crazy things have to happen to get high ammonia, but I will not comment anymore on that until (hopefully others chime in, BC?)

Guys :

On my Hatch test kit one drop = to 5 ppm alka. If I put in the 4th drop and the color starts to change but not pink/red but kinda grey and then put in 5 th and it turns to red it means alka. is between 20 and 25. We are in the pine belt and have never had alka. above 40 even with lots of lime. While it would be nice to get to the 200 optimun for LMB it is not practial in $ or space in the ponds. Basic levels -- 200 optimun for LMB ( other sunfish probably close) 20 min. level for fertile pond and/or fert. use. less than 20 not good -- add ag lime. See ranges in links above and posted . ewest

Deb, Hach makes a unit called a digital titrator which is pretty accurate for field testing samples for hardness & alkalinity. You can get different strength reagents that will allow you to test higher concentrations quickly & lower concentrations more accurately. I wont say it's as good as the chemist in our lab, but I believe it is accurate enough & I think it would be a better deal for you. Also, it's not expensive at all.

Thanks Ross, the more I can learn the better. Is this unit only for field testing? I ask this because all of our samples are mailed or brought into my lab. I never get out "into the field" to do water analysis onsite which is why we have opted for the "drop" method to date.
Also, do you have any opinions on the total ammonia that Greg and I were discussing (and yes Greg I am familiar with the nitrogen cycle)? I am aware of the two different types of ammonia present, but our Hach water quality test only gives results in total ammonia without the differentiation available (although the link I will post below gives us a way to aid in separating the two through pH readings and water temperature). I have researched some online this evening and have discovered some scientific documentation of kills resulting from high levels of total ammonia in ponds. When levels get over .8 ppm, ammonia penetrates the gill filaments. In high enough numbers this leads to vessel rupture thus allowing bacterial or parasitic infections to enter the bloodstream. Obviously this compromises the immune system causing fatigue and decreased feeding (flu like symptoms) and can lead to death. Of course the total ammonia is increased with higher densities of fish and feed, but other factors also apply.
I pulled an excerpt from a link I will post below. Very interesting and simplistic reading.

"Of all the water quality parameters which affect fish, ammonia is the most important after oxygen, especially in intensive systems. In small amounts, ammonia causes stress and gill damage. Fish exposed to low levels of ammonia over time are more susceptible to bacterial infections, have poor growth and will not tolerate routine handling as well as they should. Ammonia is a killer when present in higher concentrations, and many unexplained production losses have been caused by ammonia."

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_FA031

Thanks also to you ewest! Have you ever tried anything besides ag lime to raise your levels. Obviously the higher the total hardness and alkalinity, the better the growth with less stress on the fish. Gypsum and sodium bicarb. are other options from what I understand, but you might have a soil absorbtion issue you are dealing with (or extreme water exchange). Just throwing random thoughts out there!

Deb

Deb, no not just for field testing at all. In my line of work, alot of the laboratory testing is done via burette titration. The digital titrator is good because it is as portable as any other testing equip....and I believe it is accurate enough to give you the results you need. As an I example of what meant by reagent strength: if hardness or alkalinity are expected to be >100-200ppm, I use a reagent where the multiplier is 4.0....if the hardness or alkalinity is expected to be <100 ppm, I use a reagent where the multiplier is .40 . Like I said, it allows me to more accurate on lower levels & fast/accurate on high levels. Once you get the hang of it, maybe a minute per test...so its fast.
On the ammonia, I cant help you there. I make my living with water, but it has nothing to do with ponds. It's heating & cooling water. You guys spend all your time trying to get stuff to live in your water...I spend all mine trying to kill every thing in my water!

Thanks Ross! Sounds like a good idea to me then. I will get with Ken next week and discuss this option (unit is inexpensive from what I can tell). We could get more accurate results in the lab, and our drivers could test water during truck delivery.
I know what you mean about killing everything. I spend all day long working on ways to improve and save, yet I can't keep blasted ich out of my son's 10 gallon aquarium. I have used everything from malachite green to formaldehyde, but I just can't keep those parasitic little buggers at bay. At present time I have opted to stick with frogs and crabs. Ryan is happy with that, so maybe "mommy the biologist" will figure out the fish part later. ? Maybe a green sunfish... ?

Deb

I always use the digital titrator (same as Greg) for generalized tests where it is required. However I do not perform water chem tests with accuracy of a standard chem lab. It is quite accurate compared to the "drop method & conversion number type tests" (dropper method)previouly discussed by Deb & ewest. My titrator came in the portable water lab.

Deb once you get ich cleared up in an aquarium, new ich episodes come in with newly introduced fish. Whenever you add a new fish it should be quarantined or treated until you know it is "clean". Treatment during quarantine can be as simple as holding the fish in the proper salt concentration for a week or two. This time period is usually the incubation period for the ich cycle. The onset of the ich cycle can be enhanced by elevating the water temp. If you do not do this quarantine step, then you will always be battling new infestations of ich.

Thanks Bill, but my problem is never getting rid of the stuff to begin with. For example, I resorted to 10 of the $.28 goldfish from Walmart this last time after I had left the tank "cooking" in formaldehyde for two weeks (to kill eggs). I used new gravel, rocks, and plants then added salt to the water for one week after fish were introduced. Two weeks later... you guessed it! So I have been on a parasite battle for a week now (down to three fish). I have the water temp at 82 which is high for the goldfish but I wanted to speed up the cycle. First time I dealt with this parasite I was medicating the water but had forgotten to remove the carbon filter. After a few minutes of feeling REALLY dumb, I began research. Still at a loss, but the frogs and crabs are happy. As a matter of fact I just returned from the pet store (6 more crabs) where the owner and I had a great big laugh over my situation. In fact he said "You can breed fish, identify infections, and remedy situations in large lakes, but can't keep a damn fish alive in 10 gallons of water. Don't tell your customers this!"

Deb

By the way Bill, what is up with you answering machine at home? When I hung up I wanted to go outside and rope something!

Hi guys,

Not to fan the flames, BUT...when I had my water tested locally, the advice I was given was: IF I am not going to fertilize - there is NO need to add Lime (in an attempt) to increase the total alkalinity above 20. IE - if you are not going to fertilize, then total alkalinity is not a factor.

I know this may seem to go against common practice - BUT, why would you need to adjust total alkalinity IF in affect you were not going to "do" anything with the water anyway? This seemed like a reasonable position to me.

Gator

Every pond is different. Some have a tendency to have too soft water stressing fish.
Some ponds don't need to be artificially fertilized but need the lime to better utilize the naturaly occuring nutrients.
And then there's ones goals for the pond.

I think before I gave that advise to someone I would have to know the answer to Why are you not going to fertilize.

Gator :

IMO whoever told you that is wrong assuming your water is as I think you have described ( acid as most in the pine belt). See the info below. In acid water not only does plankton have a tough time but so do the fish. If you are going to run a expir. it is even more important that the water not be the limiting factor. With low alka. you encounter 2 limiting factors at least for your fish . One is high stress related to wide swings in ph (alka. is the shock absorber , buffer to this) and two limited food production(plankton). Plankton is there with or without fertilizer. A limiting factor to its growth is acid water (may also be low fertility). Some ponds like ML's are naturally fertile but need lime to reduce the acid that is limiting its growth. The info below is from the link

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/8345539-464fs.pdf

You have seen much on the forum on water quality as to all ponds. Note that it is NOT water quality if you need to fertilize only. Note the info below esp. the first para. and that it does not say only if you need to fertilize.

However, a fundamental
understanding of the concepts and
chemistry underlying the interactions
of pH, CO2, alkalinity and
hardness is necessary for effective
and profitable pond management.
There is no way to avoid it; water
quality is water chemistry.

Phytoplankton are microscopic or
near microscopic, aquatic plants
which are responsible for most of
the oxygen (photosynthesis) and
primary productivity in ponds. By
stabilizing pH at or above 6.5, alkalinity
improves phytoplankton
productivity (pond fertility) by
increasing nutrient availability
(soluble phosphate concentrations).
Alkalinities at or above 20
mg/L trap CO2 and increase the concentrations available for photosynthesis.Calcium and magnesium are essential
in the biological processes
of fish (bone and scale formation,
blood clotting and other metabolic
reactions). Fish can absorb calcium
and magnesium directly
from the water or from food.
However, calcium is the most important
environmental, divalent
salt in fish culture water. The presence
of free (ionic), calcium in culture
water helps reduce the loss of
other salts (e.g., sodium and potassium)
from fish body fluids (i.e.,
blood). Sodium and potassium
are the most important salts in fish
blood and are critical for normal
heart, nerve and muscle function.
Research has shown that environmental calcium is also required to
re-absorb these lost salts. In low
calcium water, fish can lose (leak)
substantial quantities of sodium
and potassium into the water.
Body energy is used to re-absorb
the lost salts. For some species
(e.g., red drum and striped bass),
relatively high concentrations of
calcium hardness are required for
survival.
A recommended range for free calcium
a value of 100
mg/L (250 mg/ L calcium hardness)
matches the calcium concentration
of fish blood. Tests specific
for calcium hardness should be
performed on samples of the
water source being considered for
these animals.
In water with moderate to high alkalinity
(good buffering capacity)
and similar hardness levels, pH is
neutral or slightly basic (7.0 to 8.3)
and does not fluctuate widely.
Higher amounts of CO2 (i.e., carbonic
acid) or other acids are required
to lower pH because there
is more base available to neutralize
or buffer the acid.

ewest

Gator-

Before you add anything take ML up on his offer for Overton to test again.
Pull a deep water sample like you sent to me, but also take a "paper towel sample" from the top of your water. In other words take a wet paper towel and drag it across the top off your water (to catch algae). Wrap this paper towel up in newspaper to keep it moist, and send it with your water test (through ML).
I suggest this only because of the appearance of your pond on page #6. It appears from the color only that you already have a substantial growth of algae/plankton. Since we really can not judge from the photo alone, Overton should be able to do a microscopic examine of your "paper towel" surface water to see what you have growing.
If indeed you already have this growth, and I think you do, then I would say no to the fertilizer.
Regardless of the fertilizer issue, in order to get optimum growth you MUST raise your total hardness and alkalinity (refer to ewest's excellent post above). On a pond this small it would not be very expensive to do this. Be it ag lime as others suggest, or the use of calcium and bufferin as I suggest (I am still researching the pros and cons on this one), it is imperative to raise these #'s.
Fish do not produce their own calcium. They must absorb it from their water source or food source. With a total Hardness of 17 (or below) your pond currently does not offer much for them.
The lower the total alkalinity, the more prone to stress. I use layman terms in the office by explaining it like this:

It is 20 degrees outside, and 90 degrees inside. You stand in the doorway all day long going back and forth between the two temperatures. The stress that this puts on your body and it's immune system is similiar to the stress that the fish go through when total alkalinity in a pond is very low.

Raising the total alkalinity puts a buffer on the water that stops (or limits) the fluctuation of pH and other things. I call it "raising the immune system in the fish."
So again, regardless of whether you fertilize or not (depending on what growth you currently have) you do indeed need to raise total hardness and alkalinity in that pond for the good health and growth of the fish.

Where is Cody to explain this better? Again I will state like a broken record that water chemistry is not my "thing". I have a simplistic approach in explaining, but I am still in the learning cycle in understanding.

Deb

Deb you will like the diigitial titrator. I understand how ammonia kills fish. I worked with ammonia quite abit in aquaculture at UGA. I don;t mean to sound like a broken record...I'm just saying it is VERY rare to get high ammonia in typical sportfish pond.

Gator, I provided the same advice last week. IMHO the main reaons for liming is to raise alkalinity so fertilizer (phosphorus) is more readily avail for phytoplankton produciton. Lime has other minimial side benefits. If not fertilizing I would not spend the time/money to lime.

Ewest so you try to achieve 20 ppm by ag lime additions? I want Deb to see this, so others please provide you desired alk level. I think if you go through old pondboss articles there have been three that state desired level is above 20 ppm. Bruce you have no idea how lucky you are to have such high hardness levels. It is a pain here to just maintain above 20 ppm.

Greg :

On all our ponds alka. in normal state is 9-10ppm. It is only through an ag lime program that we can get to 20ppm. We try to get it higher but with a reasonable program can only get to 35-40 max. Over 18-24 mths it will fall to the 20 level. We add more ag lime when it gets to about 25 and it will kick in in time to keep it above 20. We do not have high flow through but a little so that is not a big factor.

I have posted my thoughts. I would add lime even if we did not fertilize for the stated reasons. We do not use hydrated lime and will not unless an emergency occurs. IMO it carries to much risk in ponds and it does not last. Instead you get an alak. spike which dissipates quickly. In addition other bad things can happen quickly if you make a mistake in application --like killing your fish. On occasion I will use pelletized lime which is like concentrated ag lime (2.5 to 3 x ag lime)which comes in bags. ewest

Ric, Greg, ewest and Deb,

I appreciate your comments and suggestions. For the moment lets assume my values are exactly as Deb had posted (these are very similar to what was tested locally) I will re-test the water after we receive more rain:

pH = 7.0
Total Hardness= 17
Total Alkalinity= 17
Total Ammonia= 1.2 ppm

Greg’s comment - “IMHO the main reaons for liming is to raise alkalinity so fertilizer (phosphorus) is more readily avail for phytoplankton produciton. Lime has other minimial side benefits. If not fertilizing I would not spend the time/money to lime.”

This comment very closely matches the advice I was given by my local contact and I am assuming for the same reasons.

Given my measurements above and knowing I do NOT plan to fertilize – do I need to raise the TH/TA to 20+?

BTW, I am not opposed to adding lime (as a point of reference I did apply Ag Lime to my large lake) to the test pond. I am seeking to understand the pluses and minuses of doing so…

ric,

On this issue of why I do not plan to fertilize: I think it complicates the mangement of your pond (based on forum discussions) and feel my experience level + lack of knowledge puts me at a disadvantage for trying it on the GG test pond. I also have a basic belief that more is not always better. Honestly I have not spent enough time studying the pros and cons of a fertilization program to see if it is right for me.

Gator

EWEST,

100% agree. I can't describe in scientific terms like you did, but in plain English, in my ponds, adding ag. lime is critical..and as most know, I do not fertilize. The ag. lime has the effect of a catalyst by enabling far more efficient utilization of nutrients in the water. I learned about ag. lime's effects on my soil many years ago when I discovered that my hay fields actually produced more hay with lime and without fertilizer than with fertilizer and without lime.

In our acidic soils of East Texas, ag. lime is magic on hay fields, gardens, and especially ponds. I'll never be without it.