Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Georgia Giant Put to the Test?

ewest - in the above referenced study you have to consider the stocking rate for the LMB. The density of LMB can be increased to improve the predatory pressure. Plus remember as an option Gator could do some thinning of offspring by sampling, trapping and angling.

Bill :

I agree. The most acurate test will be the one that does the best job of removing all the F2's. I think that will be LMB + trapping, seining etc. I think it will be harder to do that with HSB + trapping , etc. ewest

Theo,

I plan to evaluate the GG, but not necessarily Deb's total program. I want to see if GG's will grow as advertised, but in a pond environment that I know can be reliably and safely maintained in my ponds.

My objective is to have a great Kid's pond in addition to other ponds which have far different fishing experiences.

If the GG's will not grow, when stocked in a manner that I know reaches the limits of my little kid's pond's capacity, then I do not need to go to an even higher stocking rate to know that the GG isn't for me. On the other hand, if it does indeed grow out better at stocking rates I am comfortable with, then the GG will be part of a continuing program at my place.

There will be no other BG present, feeding will be done as recommended. and HSB will be stocked in the ratio Deb recommends. The final stocking rate will be what I am comfortable with knowing full well my pond and its environment.

I have no self-interest in the GGs, however, I've been following this thread.

As others have stated, there are simply two things to be evaluated, and they could be evaluated at the same time:

1) The Georgia Giant itself

2) The Holyoak method of stocking

However, the Holyoak method of stocking will put quite a pinch on Gator's wallet. Obviously, this is Gator's pond, and I haven't heard anyone coming up with any subsidized funds for his project; therefore, he is the final decision maker.

But, there are enough "fish" scientists available on this forum to give proper instructions on how to document this. Then it's finally up to Gator what he wants to do.

Bill, you've certainly pulled out the "big guns" of your experience and education. I certainly don't think you are too harsh though. More importantly, I feel you are giving Holyoak a taste of what expertise exists here on the forum.

This could be a very slippery slope for Holyoak.

Again, not that I personally care, but Deb, I assume your employer knows what you're getting Holyoak into here?

Bill, I know you have considered this, but, this is in Texas, where for 3 months the low temp. is 75 and high over 95, that even a small pond with medium stocking rates, some aeration would be needed with average to above average feeding.

Your thoughts.

Don't forget the MANAGED AS RECOMMENDED part. I think this is where the plow and clock both get cleaned.

I have thought of another question just out of curiosity.

If the offspring of the original GG are undesirable, is there not a possibility to make the GG sterile like HSB, Grass Carp, or Tiger Musky?

Bill,

The cement pond would work great! I could sit here at my PC and key in observations first hand. Not sure how they would fare when I crank up the hot tub!

All,

I appreciate your input and suggestions. I would like to ensure that whatever approach I (we) decide on is agreed to by Deb. The spirit of the test was to "try out GGs". If we take away from that, then we take away from the potential for success based on their recommendations. That being said – If Deb agrees to accept some “PB” suggestions, then I am fine with that too. AKA, pond dye.

I think we are still working through the aeration recommendation.

On the issue of LMB – I feel Bill has many valid points for Deb to consider here.

Keep in mind that my goal is GG, predator fish are secondarily important to me. If HSB get the job done and changing to LMB invalidate the test (from Debs perspective) then I go with HSB. If this is the case, then perhaps we need to do another test with LMB…I have another small pond, but don’t think I can spring for two tests at one time.

At the end of the day – I want large pan fish…GIANT pan fish in my pan!

Gator

Gator, you may need some help doing 'growth samples'.

Have pole, will travel.

Warning to all; this will be lengthy!!! (No surprises there)

First off we need to consider what is actually going on here. Different people have different recommendations and comments based on ...? Experience, hearsay, and personal opinion would be the answers I would choose. Some are on this thread to “prove us wrong”, some are onboard to help, and some are just curious. Several of you have tons of experience in this field, and this will serve well if adjustments are needed in the program. Now by all means I am not saying that everything we do should be done the way we say because we know it all. We don’t. Again that is part of the reason for my participation in this forum. I came on to present our side and defend a fish that has been “trash talked” for years without our knowledge, and I am here to learn. Review other threads and you will see that I have not put my “two cents in” at every chance I got. This is not because I do not care, but instead because the wealth of knowledge already on this forum far exceeds my experiences in this industry.

That being said let’s decide on what we want. Are the doubts here based on the fish, or a combination of the fish and stocking recommendations? A good point was made that Gator’s wallet is the one that will be tapped here. I have offered to help out as much as possible with free delivery and anything else I can get by with. Any other offers?

My proposal would be this:

ML can raise the GG and HSB using PB proven procedures (and his experience) to achieve that goal. Gator can stock the GG with LMB or HSB and follow Ken’s guidelines as close as possible allowing a few variables. My thoughts on the HSB were my opinion of the fish based on customer response, and the fact that I like what they do in a pond (both as a predator and as a hook fighter). We sell and stock both, it is customer choice. But again, unless we are willing to make donations to the GG projects, the final decisions will fall on the individual pond owners.

Bill I do not fill you are being harsh at all. You have an abrupt way of stating things (as do many professors), but your comments are based on fact, and my “feelings don’t get hurt”. These facts are what I am studying. Make no bones about it; I have a 2 inch notebook started with info from this forum and other sites. I intend to learn as much as possible from my “homework” and put it to practical use. I will not “conveniently” forget any question posed to me (as you put it), but it might take time to respond because I want my answers to be based on scientific truths. I came on board as an employee of the company who was asked to defend our fish. If I did not still believe in our fish and most of our ways, why would I still be here? Review my posts and you will realize that over ½ are made at night when I am off the clock (not on payroll). That should be evidence of my sincerity here. By the way, I was assuming my educational experience through you was based on Georgia’s Hope Grant. If not then I will need a scholarship please.

Sunil quote – “This could be a very slippery slope for Holyoak.
Again, not that I personally care, but Deb, I assume your employer knows what you're getting Holyoak into here?” I am not exactly sure what you are implying by asking if Ken knows what I am getting him into. My recommendations on this forum are no different than those made to our customers (adjusted with each situation). It is a plan that works. For me to try to organize this project different just for the sake of the forum would be a practice in deception, and THAT would be doing Ken an injustice. What exactly are we “getting into” by proving our system works? If we indeed practiced in deception then first of all I would not be an employee here, and second I would not offer to jump into this test.
Also you stated:
“If the offspring of the original GG are undesirable, is there not a possibility to make the GG sterile like HSB, Grass Carp, or Tiger Musky? - Sunil
There is always the possibility of sterilization, but that would eliminate the need/want for a predator. It is not that the offspring are undesirable (they are a good food source for the predators); it is their survival that is undesirable. Sterilization is a procedure that has to be done on a very precise timeline. I will not go into genetics, magnets, radiation, and Monosex triploidy right now though, in fact Bill Cody could explain this better than I.

Gator this is your pond. You are left with the final decisions after processing all of the information here. If LMB are your fish of choice, then go for it as I do not believe it will affect the short term test. You are only going 1-3 years if I understand correctly, and the LMB should not over grow the F-1 GG in this amount of time. Not to mention you could trap and release like Bill stated. Also, if ML stays with the HSB then we will have a comparison “down the road” from you, so to speak.
This forum is full of experts. Everyone has a specialty, many have several. I do not consider myself an expert by any means, but to date I am the only one on this forum who deals with the GG on an almost daily basis. I have caught the fish, dissected the fish, and listened to numerous testimonies from customers who have stocked the fish. If I did not believe in the potentials for the GG, I would not be here. As Bruce stated in an earlier post I would have “folded like a cheap tent.”

Deb

Good reply, Deb.

What I meant about the "slippery slope" covers a few fronts. And again, I use the term "Holyoak" specifically because I am talking about the company, and not your own actions.

Let me start with an assumption that Holyoak has developed some kind of great "bluegill."

Whenever something happens in the world that is better, scientifically superior, advanced, different than the norm, etc., there are two ways that the inventor can go:
1) The first way is to embrace the scientific world, or powers that be, and go through the efforts to explain what the "new" development is all about, and to hopefully gain some kind of acceptance. This way is tedious, risky, long-winded, frought with many pointless steps, and many times not commercially beneficial (due to exposing what may be trade secrets). I am not saying that this way is unrecommended or worthless in any way.

2) The second way is to go directly to the end-user and develop your market from there; and to avoid the scientific/academic world. In other words, state the benefits of the "new" development, but not really allow and third party evaluations.

It seems obvious to me that Holyoak has gone with method number 2. I say this because of the fact that there is no information available about growth rates, size ranges, etc., and no photos available. After some 30-40 years of being in that business, the fact that these things are not available is kind of a joke. But more so, it indicates a SUSTAINED EFFORT TO NOT REVEAL the aforementioned items (keep in mind, Deb, that this all predates your presence at Holyoak).

Now to current date. Holyoak is on this forum now, and with Gator's project, about to put everthing on the table to this forum. As I've mentioned before, this forum has some of the most prominent experts regularly participating.

Kudos to Holyoak if they are now taking the "nothing to hide" stance, however, this seems very different to how the company was before it's entry into PondBoss. This is also happening under a situation that you've referred to a few times being Ken's health.

Also, I am pretty unbiased to this whole thing.

PS: I also want to comment that I am not suggesting that you, as an employee, are doing something wrong or without permission. It just seems apparent that this experiment, especially on the forum here, is at variance to the prior modus operandus of Holyoak.

On the sterilization point, I may be wrong, but I though that the main goal was big GGs. If they didn't reproduce, there would be no need for a predator.

This is just an "if" of course. The cost of sterilization could certainly be prohibitive.

Now you may not like this statement (but remember, Deb, it's not you): when the suggested stocking of predators:GG is 5:1, that's a lot of revenue that will be gone if there was a sterile GG.

I have been watching all the GG threads very closely and have resisted to post. However, after receiving Ken's colorful catalog I can no longer hold back. I don't want this post to be observed as "flaming" and I am NOT saying anything negative about the GG. In fact, I would have them in my pond right now if circumstances were right. Everything I post here I will try to base on facts alone.

The point I wanted to make here pertains to the statements made by Deb in the prior post: "...defend a fish that has been “trash talked” for years..." and your reply to Sunil's post on "deception". Here's a scanned section of part of the catalog that I've added arrows to:



1) Volume sold ZERO. - I find this extremely unrealistic, because I also received a price list with the catalog and bluegill, shellcracker, and copper head (?) were part of it! Are you saying you sell these fish, but you've NEVER sold any? That makes no practical sense, especially for a business.

3) Grow 1/2 inch to 1 inch. - When first looking at this statement it is hilarious, I mean after all you can buy 3-4 inch fingerlings. I do understand though it is referencing from GG column on "thickness", but the reader would never make that determination unless he read across the page. Isn't this deception, whether consciously or unconsciously intended?

4) No major growth rates in pounds ever noted. - Notice I underlined EVER. The reason: based on what this ad says, bluegill, redear, and sunfish will never, ever ever reach major size in pounds. However, the world record for bluegill and redear are both well over 4 pounds. How can this statement be true then?

5) Bite with no consistency. - I'll refer to ML's recent posts and interest in building a kid's pond prior to his interest in stocking GG as an alternative. His plan was to stock BG and some other species of sunfish if I remember correctly. Why? Because BG always bite. That's why they are great for kids, because they require no skill to catch. Now because this is listed under shellcracker, I can understand the catchability of this species, but even so it devious.

I also wanted to comment on 8) as it says grows UP TO 1/4 pound in two years. I am almost sure many members of PB have blown this number out the door. However, because I don't have any direct experience or proof I won't elaborate on this.

Once again I want to point out I am not trying to flame you Deb. I think you've been extremely strong and persistent in your postings, and was extremely glad when ML first stated he had emailed Ken about joining the forum. You are a welcome addition, as many have stated.

However, I still don't understand how these statements are not to be observed as "deception". In my opinion, I know I said I wouldn't give it; this could be a cause for Ken's reputation on this forum. After all, if a well-educated pondmeister looked over this ad, he would definitely catch the things I caught on to. And if they knew these things were completely false, why should he expect claims about your patented Georgia Giant to be true? I think little things like the above "ad" are what makes Ken seem like a liar and a salesman.

I didn't want to post under this topic, but since Deb mentioned "deception" and the defense of her fish I thought this maybe an appropriate time to point these things out.

Point taken Sunil, but consider this. Other than the recipe for the GG, has anyone before now ever asked for the proof? If you read a thread I made under another post, I explained that in the first several years of the development of the GG the research was documented and photographed. But this was in the 70's. After the fish proved itself time and again on the farm and in customer's ponds, Ken moved on to other "inventions". This documentation is in a basement in Jason's house on the other side of the farm. Not to mention buried with 40 years of other research. I hate to fall back on the "time has not been available" thing, but that is the sincere truth. Ken has never been the most organized person (just ask Duggan about Ken's desk since he is the only one who has visited the farm), so it will take quite some time to dig everything up. But I can do that in time.
I honestly believe there is a line in between your two points, and this is where Ken has been sitting for years. He shares what he has learned with his fish and techniques, has allowed studies such as that done in Virginia and now Ohio, and has accepted guidance and suggestions from others in this field. But he will not reveal “trade secrets” like the lineage of the GG.

As for the statement:
“It just seems apparent that this experiment, especially on the forum here, is at variance to the prior modus operandus of Holyoak.” No disrespect, but who ever actually asked to do this before. When I was contacted to join this forum, I had never known of the PB existence. Maybe I am wrong since my time here has been limited, but has anyone on this site ever picked up the phone and asked us to do such an experiment. I think years of reading hearsay in regards to our company have programmed a lot of brains in a negative light. Now I am here to defend what was said before, so it is an automatic assumption that I may be “coasting under Ken’s radar.” I am not. Ken is fully aware of what I am doing/learning. As I stated in the previous post I do not condone deception. I won’t deceive our customers or this group, and I will not stay with an employer who deceives me.

Chris I also see your point. We added to the catalog last year, but did not remove or revamp anything and from your post above that was a mistake on our part. Duly noted, and yet another project to work on (but it needs to be done). On the fish sales, I have not seen anything sold but the GG in the 2 years I have been here (save for maybe some bluegill for bass forage only). Even though we carry the others (very limited supply), the hybrids are what sell. On subject line three underline the word major instead of the word ever and see if it reads different. Last red arrow about biting with consistency refers to winter months I believe. ML wants to stock GG and HSB, not other bluegill if I am correct. Also these above are comparisons from our ponds. I am not saying you are wrong and in fact see good points in what you have brought out, but mistakes are not a true sign of deception. I can pull several dated articles (and threads from this forum) that state the GG is without a doubt a BG x GS mix. Now the consensus is changing if ever so slightly. But again I understand your point of perceived deception through verbiage, and you are correct. But I also believe that if Ken was a "liar" as you put it, he would not have held up in this industry for 40 years. Different people read different ways. For example you will note in the catalog where Ken recommends the use of ag lime (page 76), but to hear Greg say it (no slam on Greg here just an example) Ken is dead set against ag lime. Do you see my point? Again I am not saying the selection you scanned above is correct on our part (I agree it needs to be rewritten), but look at the whole not just the parts. Thanks for bringing this out!

Food for thought: Hank Williams Jr. has been a loyal GG customer for several years. He is a PROUD believer in the fish. I'll try to contact his crew and see if one of them will post.

Deb

Let me note that it should go without saying that changes need to be made in different areas. We joke to Ken all the time that he is stuck in a mid 20th century rut. Technology, advertising, and written expression are not his strong points. Guess that is another reason for me to be here!

Deb thanks for your reply and clearing some things up! Let's get back to Gator's and ML's pond. Can't wait to see results!

EDIT: I just noticed the above image I posted is not showing up. Not sure what's wrong, but I think I may have overrun my monthly bandwidth.

Just to clarify & for the record, I am not saying that anyone is being deceptive.

As you've said, Deb, you are the only one available to explain, clarify, defend, inform, etc. all of us about Holyoak.

That's really not so fair to you as you are also here to learn as a professional in this industry. That is one reason why I suggested you re-register as a person vs. a company person. However, the distinction could get blurred when Holyoak needs a spokesperson.

Once you are able to collect all of this research & documentation that Holyoak has done forty years back, you will need to decide how you are going to present it; perhaps I mean that you will need to decide if you will "defend" it.

TritonVT, I can see your picture with no problems.

Thank you, but I knew you did not mean it that way.

As for the documentation one of two things will happen:
#1 - I will scan everything and paste an entire 100 page thread (really I have not crossed that bridge yet because the information is immense from what I understand) Wanna come down and help me? (just kidding)

OR

#2 - I will find out I have been wrong this entire time, quit my job, and hide from you all somewhere way up in the mountains with my tail tucked.

Actually I am sure number one is correct based on the customer responses that I have seen, but it will just take time.

D

One new comment. A fellow Ohioian (GC) with a new pond talked to Ken this spring (2005) and bought 1000 GG for his 0.5 acre pond. This Ohio pondowner said that Ken told him he could use HSB or LMB as predator for the GG offspring. GC has decided to use HSB and is stocking them the week of Oct 17 2005. I was not aware of this information when I posted my long discussion about Gator using LMB in his pond. Deb has agreed that either fish will act as predator upon GG offspring.

Gator just needs to decide which predator or combination of predators to use. As already suggested, an interesting comparison would be ML use HSB and Gator use LMB.

B-meister. I do realize Gator is in TX and weather is different and often extreme in TX. This is why I provided the extreme example of one fish in the pond. Without aeration gator will definately have to adjust stocking densities to allow for TX conditions. Lusk or someone with good experience should be able to provide advice as to what density would be adequate without aeration yet still pellet feed the fish. This leads to another reason why non-feed trained LMB would be a better choice as predator without aeration. HSB will likely feed to varying degrees on pellets which will contribute to additional BOD (waste) problems in the pond. HSB and GG both eating pellets will require lower overall stocking density if aeration is not used.

GGman - The information that is archived in the basement is also probably not neatly organized tabularized and presented. It is probably a lot of rough notes. I doubt you will find any neat organized reports. I wish you luck in your search. It may be actually be easier to start from square one!

Bill, you are a brave man calling out Lusk for a hybrid Sunfish experiment ! Florida/F1/Northern LMB catchability, or xbreed weight gains, thumbs up...new hybrid threadfins with a cold resistance, he's in...but mix in a Green Sunfish ??? I'm betting his eyebrow goes up

We will see if our mentor even finds and reads this. VEry busy schedule you know. He should at least have an opinion of how many to stock in TX waters if feeding and no aeration is used to minimize the chance of summer kill. It should certainly be able to be done. Even if it is stocking only a few fish. The real trick for success here is to have enough backround and experience to provide good advice after assessing all the contitions and variables. That is a trait of a real professional or expert.

All,

Ok, where to start…

The Test Pond:
My contractor called to say he worked this week. I will remeasure the pond dimensions this weekend. I feel we will be working with about a 1/10th acre pond with a maximum depth of 8 feet at normal levels.

I had the water tested locally. ~6.5 Ph with less than 17 PPM. This a basic profile for my area. Deb, I am over-niteing a sample to you for a more detailed analysis.

I will eliminate all existing fish this weekend.

Stocking:
I will go with the larger sized GGs and LMB. ML is going with HSB and this should provide some items to compare along the way. honestly, I would prefer LMB over HSB anyway.

Still need to work through the recommended stocking rates. On a 1/10 acre pond I think the recommended level is 300 GGs? I have been told 100 GG is more in line with “the norm”. Cost is not the driving factor for me on this issue, success is. ML, what stocking rates will you be using?

Aeration:
I did some checking around with a few folks (they are not on the PB forum) in the aeration business. I specifically checked with people who do aeration for a living and are familiar with my geography. Their basic recommendation is two-fold: given my pond dimensions, surface aeration is the best (albeit more expensive) solution. A ½ hp pump will be fine; although 220 volt is overkill (their words) 110v would be fine. Secondly, I have been told there is no reason to have aeration during the cool months. Their explanation is that the cooler water (mine is currently running about 69 -70 degrees and cooling) holds more oxygen and there is no benefit to running the aeration. One person was adamant on this point and we talked it over with another guy who had previously operated a hatchery and felt the same way.

I will provide aeration as required. I am leaning towards ½ hp system, preferably 110v since it’s easier to deal with than 220v. Any problems with this?

Comments welcome on the requirement for aeration during the cool weather months.

Now, what have I missed?

Gator

Why did they say 220v was overkill?
Why is 110v easier to deal with?
I'm very curious why someone would give this advise.

Gator,

You asked about stocking rates I would be using...haven't finalized it yet, but I did send Deb a proposal and waiting to hear from her.

My concern right now is the continuing drought over our region. Normally, we would already be in the rainy season. However, the fronts are coming through dry and if that trend holds, frankly I'm very concerned about stocking rates and will go very conservative. The next three weeks will dictate that..if the trend holds, i.e. dry fronts, all bets are off.

I agree with your research on aeration...and do not run my aerators in winter except for very brief times to knock the rust off.

Let's hope for rain and a return to normal rainfall patterns. With rain, I'll go for a relatively high stocking rate, but without it, will be much more conservative.

cazac,

If I need to plug in something, 95% of everything I own is wired for 110v. In a pinch I can run an extension cord from my cabin out to my pond. I already have cords, timers...etc. all 110v but I do not have the same for 220v.

Gator

GATOR - I tend to agree with the idea that surface aeration is less of a necessity in cooler waters. However I am not sure at what point where warm water stops and cool water starts. In other words when you can stop running surface aeration. In my opinion several factors will determine this. Opinions from the local "experts" will probably be good enough advice. In my opinion the fewer GG you stock than 300, the less you will need aeration. Keep in mind what is taught here about carrying capacity, over stocking, and feeding rates. The more you "push the envelope" the more risk that is involved.