Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations name that fish...............

Will this farm do a straight BG X RES?

I will check Bruce. I was hoping for the same as you. I bought these for the hey of it. I only bought 50 for a one acre pond. I wanted to see how they would turn out.

I was told by a biologist at the NE Game & Parks commision (Jeff Blosser) that you can get a different looking hybrid crosses between BG & GS depending on the sex of the parents. This is the information he got from the UNL fisheries professor who examined my fish, this professor spent several hours going thru books looking at picutres to properly ID this fish, counting the gill rakes is what positivley ID'ed it as a hybrid. I can tell you that the hybrid that I took in looked like a (male) pumkinseed, the givaway on the ID was that there was only a small portion red on the ear tab and a true pumkinseed has significantly more red on the ear tab. I was also told that this was the less common type of BG X GS hybrid that one normally sees. I did try and find the picture of that fish last night and I have no idea where I stashed it. If I do find it I will post it as this fish looks much different than other pictures of GS X BG hybrids that I have seen. As an intersting side note ewest, these hybrids in our pond occured naturally and spawned in gin clear water, the notion that you need dirty water to create a HBG might not hold to be true in some cases.

We tried some hybridization of our own this year. This was the only viable organism that we got.



I think after a couple of generations it will eventually turn back into a green sunfish.

I am starting to believe you are all green sunfish (agressive with large mouths ).
By the way big_pond, I removed my rating so you would feel better about yourself.

Deb
Bruce what the heck is that, and did you do the dental work? That overbite still needs adjustments.

Back to the post by Ewest on page 2: that was a very interesting tidbit.

Eric: there still were F2 fish produced in their study ponds (Brunson and Robinette 1987), so that must mean the hybrids were "fertile" with each other. The F1 males must have successfully fertilized eggs from F1 females, even though they apparently could not fertilize eggs from female bluegills or female green sunfish. Complex!

Folks: I have an electronic copy of the study that Eric cited. If anyone wants to read it, pop me an e-mail.

Deb,

Please be gentle on me on this one. This is the first time I have allowed any fishing for gills in my pond. I wanted the fish to get a chance to grow before any pressure was added. This is the first time I have taken a real good look at one of my supposed GG. This one was stocked May 14 of this years at 1.5 to 2". Sorry I forgot the ruler again. I do not see the yellow tinged fins as normal hybrids tend to have. I do see some slight caracteristics of GS but I am not sure. This fish has alot more blue tint to it than the Hybrid I posted yesterday. hopefully that is a good sign.







I hope the news is good. When I purchased these fish they were small and you could not see any standard hybrid features other than the larger mouth. So I bought a few. I was not familiar with the GG hyrids and you were not here to fill us in at the time so here is my result.

Aaron we will see what Deb says but this does not look like the GG I got from Ken's

Deb wrote:
By the way big_pond, I removed my rating so you would feel better about yourself.

Hey Deb I was only kidding you deserv this rating people have a total different view of you since you have been on here... You have changed my view of Ken holyoaks Opperation...but your 5 stars back you deserve them!!!

I hope for the sake of the farm that sold it that it is truely a GG! I know of another pond near here that also stocked from the same truck. I will get some photos from his also.

Bill,

I hope it is just a geographical difference between our fish. Do you have any or can you get photos of your GG you have stocked? What were your growth rates if you do not mind?

I was trying to post about 30 minutes ago but my computer crashed . I don't want to jump to any conclusions, and I certainly hope you have not been shafted, but that top photo is not a true GG. The bottom photo does bear more resemblance than the others though. Pictures are often difficult to read due to changes in light and such, but our babies that size are do not exhibit the darker colors. As they age they pick up the striking variations in color and striations. A true test would be to ice one down and send him to me.
Few questions:
First of all did you get my email? We delivered in that area the week of April 13th, but did not issue any certificates for resale nor did we sell to Patrick. He might have gotten GG's from someone else and is selling offspring though.
What other bream are in this pond? What is your water quality? What is your source of feed (minnows and such), and do you supplement with pellet feed? If you do supplement, what is the protein and fish meal ratio of the pellet?

I ask this only because in a pond with good water quality and supplemental high protein feed, a true F-1 GG that is 6-7 months old should be larger than what you have posted. If it was indeed a GG you stocked, is it possible that it might have crossed with something else to result in this fish?

I am still trying to "trap" that dealer into letting me know where his "GG's" came from, but I can not get him on the phone. Please check your email for further info about him though.

Did this help any, or confuse it even more?

When I get the thread of pictures rolling on the F-1's, I will get as many pictures of different sizes as I can for true comparison.

Thanks,
Deb

By the way Robinson, if you would stop worrying yourself to death over an F-8, you will probably stop dreaming about them. When exactly have you seen a live baby GG to make an honest opinion?

Sorry Aaron no photos, did not think of possible differences with the regions. Stocked four years ago. As I have said before I have not followed Ken's plan(lower stocking,Fertilizing, lower protein feed, stocked coopernose next year ect.) but have GG's up to 1.5 Lbs with most or all F-1 over a pound.

I beg your pardon then, you must have a very vivid memory of 20 years past. :p

Deb

Deb,

Yes, I did recieve your email and did reply for you. To answer your questions.

I have hybrid RES stocked around the same time, Pure run native blue gill, a few Gs which are very few now after shocking early spring and HEAVY fishing. Now for the kicker.... I have a variety of hybrid bream all of the same size as the "GG" and redear that were stocked this year. I have not fished the pond much until this morning. I caught 3 different variety of hybrids this morning that I have not seen until now. I am not happy and I will help you in any way I can to get this fraudualent fish sale. No hybrids were ever caught prior to them being stocked this year. I renovated this pond because it would not support anything due to very low DO levels. The only thing it would support prior to renovation was a few bullhead, crappie, GS. No bass were present nor were any bream other than GS. which were all fished heavy then shocked and seined with castnets daily this years before stocking. Dredging is in the future plans so I did not retonone this pond.

Water quality is now good with good bloom average around 18" vis. Gast 0523 with 2- 9" membranes is used for aeration. PH was 6.98 when last checked. Fathead minnows at 5# were added and supplimental feed of 3/4 lbs. 1 time daily is used. The feed I use is Cargill Aquafeed I believe is 32% protein. Meal % I am not sure of because the tag is missing now.

Yes, you have helped me out. Fishing the pond helped me out even more today. No, there is no confusion here. I understand hybrids well and I have been taken for a ride by this fish farm.

Thank you Bruce, Shorty and Dave W.

Dave I did notice that there were F2s in the study but did not follow the thought out that the F1s reproduced with each other while they could not reproduce with BG or GSF.

Shorty thanks for the info. Like you I would like somone to verify that male BG x female GSF (standard HBG)look much different from male GSF x female BG and does the second of these look like the first pic. on this thread. All the HBG I have seen both pics. and in person look like BG in body shape but have yellow fins and a large GSF mouth much like those posted on different threads earlier this year.

Bruce --clear now. By the way that is a Condello Hawkshead Ground Rat and as BL said it can never revert back to its parent a GSF. :p

Aaron both of those pics. look a lot alike to me. How sure are you of what you have or were sold. If I understand the timing none of these fish have been in the pond long enough to spawn and the two , GG and HBG (BG x GSF) x RES are all that are in there. Give us a history of events of the pond.

Here is a pic. of a GSF for those interested.
http://www.cnr.vt.edu/efish/families/greensun.html

In checking on this topic it appears that there is a large difference (possibly reginoal)in the % of male offspring when a standard HBG is created (m BG x f GSF). Some studies show as high as 97% male others as low as 66% (in a Texas study). If 44% are female and the F1s can spawn with each other, as Dave noted, and you have outbreeding depression (loss of hybrid vigor) as expected -- then someone is going to have an unexpected mess to deal with. ewest

ps: Aaron I see you have posted while I was working on this post-- thanks.