Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations HSB and yellow perch

Any thoughts on the viability of a 1 acre pond stocked with HSB & yellow perch. Fatheads and golden shiners, with pellets for feeding?

I would like something fun to fish, and good table fare to boot.

I'm in Maryland. If this is do-able, any thoughts on stocking numbers and seasons?

Brian

This is an interesting combination. You might want to PM Edward Eitel. He is already planning on a similar scenario and he is very knowledgable. Maybe we can get him to post on his progress so far. This combination would probably be very pellet friendly. Cecil or Bill would know how to tweak this setup so that the YP got a little of the action.

This should have been posted in - Types Of Fish To Choose. I my have a hard timne finding this post again in this huge mess of Questions and Observations section.

One of the local ponds that has this combination had way too many HSB. HSB hoged all the food and last time I checked it there were practically no young perch present. Adult perch were thin bodied due to competion with HSB for food. Heavy number of HSB eliminated all minnows in a weed free pond. Rather than listen to me at intial stocking the pond owner listened to his "own common sense" and the "hatchery man"!.

A second local pond with a much lower stocking of HSB seemed to be in better balance and several year classes of perch were present. These pond owners more closely followed my advice. If I get a chance this fall, I will revisit both ponds and recheck the status of each fishery.

Pot Luck -- I don't have any experience with the HSB/YEP combination. However, I do have a suggestion based on HSB feeding behavior. I suspect the combination would work best in a pond with limited aquatic vegetation. If there is too much vegetation, I wonder if the small perch will be able to effectively hide from the "open-water" HSB. Just a thought.

Dave W brings up a very good point. With abundant or even moderate submerged weed growth and or dense structure the HSB will have difficulty adequately keeping young perch under proper control or density.

Great Topic!
I am very "green" to the HSB / YP combination.
Thanks to some advice from Bruce C, Dave W and Bill C, I am attempting to establish a HSB and Y Perch fishery.

I share some of the same concerns mentioned by Dave and Bill. Will too much aquatic cover enable the perch and their young to elude the HSB and overpopulate; especially if there is supplemental feed?
Can a slot limit on perch (fishing through the ice with several anglers), say 7 - 10 inches help to effectively reduce perch numbers? Will remaining larger perch (> 11 inches) effectively evade the mouths of HSB and help control their own young?
Too many questions and not many answers......yet!

Ed

Ed your question of: "Can a slot limit on perch (fishing through the ice with several anglers), say 7 - 10 inches help to effectively reduce perch numbers? Will remaining larger perch (> 11 inches) effectively evade the mouths of HSB and help control their own young?"

1. I think a slot limit will definately help to reduce perch numbers. Until you have a good number of larger perch (2nd or 3rd yr) present the slot should probably be initially modified to a lower UPPER size such as to 8.5 or 9"). Once the population dynamics starts to skew toward larger adult perch (3rd or 4th yr) then broaden the slot limit range to include 10" and or 11" perch. This method will help to produce more numbers of perch larger than 10".

2. I am convinced that larger perch will reduce numbers of 0 yr class perch. A recent study in Germany found that large perch (european yellow perch) were effective predators of YOY perch. As YOY perch grew into a refuge size, the adult perch switched to eating more of the other types of forage items. A local perch pond has only perch in it and he does not have an overabundance of small stunted perch. Perch in the 4.5"-6" range are abundant. Note that weed growth is minimal in this pond. Perch are opportunistic feeders and will utilize the most abundant and appropriate sized food items present. The perch in the 4" to 6" size class may need supplimental thinning based on their density which you will have to monitor with regular fishing (spring & fall) and or trapping. I doubt that the HSB (16"-20") will eat very many perch 8" to 9" long. I think these HSB will eat primarily perch in the 4"-7" range. Occassional stomach contents will verify the eating habits. Larger HSB that are harvested can be replaced with young HSB. It is best to keep the majority of your HSB population at less than 20" long.

As usual; great information Bill! I have filed this in my Perch library for future reference.

One question?

Why no HSB larger than 20"? Possible predation on 3rd and 4th year perch?

Ed

Ed - I used the 20" length for the HSB because of the open width of the mouth size of this sized fish is about 2" wide. Nine inch long, average, body condition, yellow perch are around 2" body height. If it will fit into a predator's mouth they can theoretically eat it. Perch 8" long are about 1.7" body height this corresponds to mouth size of HSB around 18" to 19" long. As your fish grow, measure body lenght and mouth width and you will get a feel for what size fish they can eat.

Just because HSB can get a perch into their stretched open mouth does not mean that they will always eat prey this size. Often smaller more abundant sized prey will be eaten. Numerous things will affect this behavior. But at least you will know the upper limit of prey size for your HSB. Keeping the HSB in the smaller size range will cause more predatory pressure on the smaller sized prey.

I sampled the two ponds that I mentioned in the above post (Oct 10). Pond sizes ranged from 0.5 to 0.75 ac. Both ponds are bottom aerated and both receive sporadic, artificial feeding by hand - 1 to maybe 4 times per week. HSB in both ponds have medium to low relative weights.

READERS NOTE: CPUE means or stands for Catch Per Unit Effort. CPUE in my case stands for number of fish caught per hour of standardized fishing. CPUE when performed correctly with minimal bias can indicate changes in a species’ abundance. CPUE will hopefully be discussed in more detail in a future article in Pond Boss magazine.

Pond 1 of 0.5 ac was stocked in 1999 with HSB (200/ac) and perch (600/ac) and, to add fish on top of fish, the SECOND year stocking (spring 2000) of HSB was 100/ac and 200 perch/ac. Each year 20 pounds of fathead minnows have been stocked. This pond has no rooted vegetation and water has remained fairly clear (5-7ft). Perch population and density has dramatically declined in this pond. CPUE in 2003 was 12.0 when perch sizes ranged from 6.0”-10.5” whereas CPUE for perch in 2005 was 1.3 and sizes ranged from 7.2”-8” long. HSB are still abundant and large (22”-23”) although HSB are difficult to catch and the owner says the best angling for HSB is with a pellet on a hook while the angler lies on the ground! HSB ignore fish lures in this pond.

Pond 2 was stocked in 2000 with 32/ac HSB and 266/ac perch. 0.75 ac, rooted vegetation is usually less than 20% of the shoreline, water visibility is around 2 ft. Perch population has improved in this pond. CPUE in 2003 was 5.3 when perch sizes ranged from 5.0”-9.5” long. CPUE for perch in 2005 was 17.3 and perch sizes ranged from 6.0”-11.5”.

Comment. Perch in Pond 2 are doing much better than those in Pond 1. I think this is due to several things. In Pond 1 the owner did not follow my stocking advice. I assume the hatchery provided the stocking guidelines which the owner of Pond 1 believed and implemented. I think, HSB densities were way too high which caused too much predation pressure on the perch. Even though lots of perch were initially stocked, lack of adequate food sources, competition with HSB and heavy predation put excessive predatory pressure on the smaller perch. A clear water clean bottomed pond allowed HSB to effectively prey on smaller, slow growing perch. Clear water also causes reduced food reserves for any newly hatched perch. In mid-summer of 2004 about 50 large perch died in Pond 1 during the stress of a heat wave. I think too much mid-day aeration during the heat wave also added heat stress to the yellow perch. I do not think spawning success has been very good in Pond 1 since no spawning habitat was present. No perch smaller than 6” were caught in this pond when it was sampled in 2003 and 2005. When I was at Pond 1, the owner asked me about adding crappie to this pond! Many people I deal with think in this manner. Fish on top of a fishery with problems to try and make things better, instead of implementing proper management.

Overall better conditions exist and better fish management practices are used for the fishery in Pond 2 where perch are flourishing.

Thanks for the update Bill. Just curious, what would your advice be to get Pond 1 back on track??

Getting Pond 1 back on track. WOW, Russ, very good question. As usual I think “it all depends”!
Here are my opinions as the beginning stages of "getting Pond 1 back on track".

What are the goals or what does “on track” mean for Pond 1? 1. Do we want an overall balanced fishery with most fish in the small to normal range? 2. Do we want a real good perch pond where we can catch and harvest truly large perch for several meals of fish each year? 3. Do we want a great HSB fishery?

NO; I do not think we can have all three in the same pond which is what most “beginners” will want out of this pond.

GOALS. It is all about goals and more importantly reasonable goals. Once we decide on the goals for the pond then we can start at “getting it back on track”. I think the main problem with Pond 1 is with the owner. He does not have a good REASONABLE goal for this pond, thus in my opinion, he has been haphazardly stocking and performing improper management. HOWEVER, the owner of Pond 1 does have a pond that literally erupts with tremendous surface activity when fish food hits the water. It is a real spectacle to see and an entertaining display !!!! Maybe this is all the owner wants; visual entertainment. Then he has met this goal. But he must want something else since he asked me about putting in crappie. First works out of my mouth were "what will they eat to get decent growth out of them?". The owner does not want any bgill since his family frequently swims in this pond and NO fish biting or nibbling on swimmers are allowed in the pond!.

The first main goal for a new pond owner or any pond owner, is to establish reasonable goals based on your limits and on what you have to work with.

Russ what would YOU like to see for a fishery in this pond? Then I will try to discuss how to achieve it.

Bill,

My question had more to do with what the pond owners goals were as opposed to what I would like to see in this pond. Initially you posted that the owner disregarded your advice and stocked by "common sense" and listening to the "hatchery man". I'm just curious what your plan is now to get the pond in line with the goals of the owner.

Side note: My interest in this post started with the mention of Yellow Perch in the title. A future project of mine involves enlarging an existing pond to experiment with a SMB/YP combination. At this point, to gather information, I'm reading anything that mentions either or both species.

Russ

Thanks for the replies and info thus far. I'm really excited about my start in backyard ponding! As of now, I have about 1/2 acre complete, with an agreement for a total of 1 acre of excavation. I've an arangement with a topsoil compost business in my area. They get dirt, I get a pond. I'm torn between one 1 acre pond or two 1/2 acre ponds. Not sure what would provide me with more options and enjoyment. Decisions, Decisions.

Thanks again for everyone's helpful info.

Brian

Russ - I am not sure what the owner of Pond 1 wants regarding as a goal for his pond. He didn't and hasn't ever asked me for advice (other than the crappie comment) and I have not offered my advice as to what I think he needs to do. I may have originally planted the idea in his head about the HSB perch combination, but that was all. At the time Pond 1 was stocked a local pond mgmt company was also promoting (at my suggestion) the HSB- yellow perch combination. So Pond 1 owner could have gotten the idea from them. I am guessing that he thinks I do not know much about raising fish since I don't sell fish or run a hatchery. For now I am just watching and learning from what I consider are his mistakes. I am learning a fair amount of what not to do if you want a good yellow perch fishery. I like the learning process which is why I went back to these two ponds and "sampled the waters".

My offer still stands. If it was your pond what would like to have as a goal and I will discuss how to try and achieve it based on where Pond 1 is presently fish-wise.

Bill,

Your offer to give advice on what steps to take in order to remedy the situation in pond 1 is greatly appreciated. I'd like to take a rain check for now and use the offer when I draw up a YP/SMB plan for my pond.

Russ

Russ - I will be glad to provide some guidence and opinions when you need them.