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#58892 10/05/05 04:50 PM
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Greg, I have enjoyed many of your enlightening posts on many topics, I even bought the scale today that you recommended, BUT this last post is about the most senseless that I have seen. I hate to see a good man dig his own grave. Please be a little more open minded.
As the lady suggested, sell the fast growing fish, and use your management skills to make them extremely happy.
I dont see that you are really in competition with Ken's hatchery. What am I missing?


#58893 10/05/05 06:22 PM
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Guys I don't want to grow "Bubba" That GG was one in a million.
This Saturday my best friend from high school is bringing his seven year old son to the farm to fish for the first time. I know he will catch big GG bream fast enough to keep his interest and make a lasting memory.
Thats the goal for my pond

#58894 10/05/05 07:33 PM
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Deb I thought that GG' after they breed a couple of times...Turned into Green Sunfish and Bluegill...is this correct?

And By the way what pictures are you going to post??
Could you post some pictures of "Normal" relistic size fish? I might want to BUY a handfull to stock in YET MY THIRD LAKE I PLAN TO BUILD !!! for the Third time!!

#58895 10/05/05 08:26 PM
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No sir, they do not turn into anything but degenerated GG's. Not bluegill, not a green sunfish, and not the lochness monster :p (threw that last one in for effect). A point I forgot to mention earlier about my talk with Ken was the fact that he had 12-13 experimental ponds running at one time (decades ago) trying to grow a monster bream. The GG is made up of several different fish. I even joked to a client/friend today that I suspected there was a wee bit of piranha in the mix due to the highly aggressive nature (Ken does have a petrified one on his desk that he got while doing research along the Amazon).
The slides I pulled today were of GG's in the 1-3 lb range that were 1-4 years old. Wal-Mart is converting these slides to pics so that I can post them here. These pics will be more in line with what should be expected from the GG. Bill stated that "Bubba" (again thanks for the name Bruce) was a once in a lifetime fish. He was correct in that, but I think Ken has an offer in our newest catalog of like $10K to anyone who can get a 6 pounder (get the fish aquariums out of your minds boys). That is Ken though, always trying to improve on an existing product.
See you all in the morning with some nice photos!

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58896 10/06/05 06:46 AM
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burger, I do not think we are in competetion either. She suggested I sell fish so that I might get future mgmt. I guess I'm supposed to read this and not post.


Greg Grimes
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#58897 10/06/05 08:11 AM
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Deb and Ken,
Good luck on your business venture. Personally speaking, and I dont have a BA or a Masters in Fish, but I am as uneasy about putting a man made fish in my pond as I am about spraying chemicals around it. To me nature, my aerator, and some fish food, grow some damn nice fish, and lots of em. My elbows, lawn mower, tilapia, clean my pond. And having invested time and money and energy trying to learn about my pond I must sit back and listen to Greg Grimes just a wee bit more than a saleswoman trying to sell me a product. Grimes hasn't tried to sell me a thing. My opinion and no offense intended. This whole discussion reeks of a sales pitch.
Toby

#58898 10/06/05 02:01 PM
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Greg we need to talk about these GG fish...I might have some intrest in them....she is telling the truth that they will NOT degenerate back to Green sun fish then they might be a fish we need to stock!!

#58899 10/06/05 02:09 PM
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big pond, I do not really have a problem with the fish if you are willing to sacrifice a few things. It is more the total number of fish suggested and water quality products that I feel are gone after a good rain that gets under my skin.

A few will pose no problem either way. It is obviuos though from mouth size only there will be some overlap of food items with bass. Also they are designed to reproduce less so lose some bass growth this way. Get it?

So go for it with a few if you like. I told the story on one thread how fun the one fish was and how much more agressive than the bluegill in my pond.


Greg Grimes
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#58900 10/06/05 03:15 PM
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Just when people quit worring about green sunfish. So I can relate your experiance with my four year old GG, when did you stock yours Georgia Giants, when did you first notice green sunfish and after how many years did it take to be overrun by greenies?

#58901 10/06/05 03:53 PM
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Bill, dont bother with Robinson. He's just jerking your chain. If he ever stocked them, really, he would never admit it! BUT, he does admit to sick humor from too much Benny Hill. :p
BTW, he doesn't even like the mighty Blue Cat, but stealthily munches on Channels.


#58902 10/06/05 04:04 PM
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Thanks Burger, I know he never stocked any, that was the only nice way I could think to respond to the post. I just hate it that this is an information board and a "Pond Boss" would make that kind of post even as a joke that someone might use to make a future decision

#58903 10/06/05 04:39 PM
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Georgia Giants vs bluegill/greensunfish cross, most everyone(I think) now agree are different fish. Bob Lusk even almost said it. Great links, Ask The Expert is calling Coopernose bluegills a hybrid

#58904 10/06/05 04:53 PM
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As primarily a LMB fisherman, green sunny's are not all that bad, risky yes as far as pond management but here is my thinking. I have fished a private lake here in NE is where green sunny's are the dominat forage fish. You would not beleive WR's on the LMB in this lake. It was common to catch 17-18" LMBs that were over 5lbs., basically the GS keep the LMB reproduction to a minumum, without a lot of competition the remaining LMB grew fast and large eating 5-6" GS. This lake stayed this way for a number of years until an aquatic weed invasion that through everything out of whack. GS would not be my first choice to stock but I think could live with them if I had too as a forage fish for LMB based on the WR's I have seen out of this lake.



#58905 10/06/05 05:09 PM
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I like green sunfish almost as much as cats, even mudcat!


#58906 10/06/05 05:20 PM
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Your experiance with Green Sunfish is when you stocked them in a pond. Do I laugh or cry!!!!

#58907 10/06/05 08:14 PM
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Please! Enough already with the dreaded green sunfish! I have yet to read a comment here from anyone who stocked a GG and fished out green sunfish. Yes you have posted links that led to opinions, so post a few more that will take us to articles written by the National Enquirer. I don’t see a real difference.

Let’s all step back into time for a moment when we took Biology 101 (with simple genetics).

Analogy:
An Anglo Saxon and an African American fall deeply in love, marry, and produce offspring. None of these offspring are identical to the parents, yet they all possess traits carried in their lineage. Now these offspring grow up to marry, and over the course of many decades we have several generations removed from the original parents. Will one of these children be identical to either of their great, great grandparents? No, they will not. Why? Because of simple genetics. You will see generation upon generation that exhibit traits and qualities of the original parents, BUT THEY WILL NOT BE IDENTICAL! The same holds true for the GG bream. This fish was developed over a ten year period, and comprises the lineage of several fish. All of the offspring have slightly different traits depending on whatever dominant gene they picked up. But they DO NOT turn back into anything. They are their own fish in their own right. Smaller, yes, but still a GG.

This analogy may offend some, and may not be understood by others. I also apologize if I am coming across terse, but I am just about knee deep in all of the ludicrous hypotheses that are flying around. I would say to stock and prove me wrong, but you can’t. On this one I hold firm.

Many of the professionals on this post are also ranchers! Maybe you can give a better analogy than I did. What do you get when you cross two different types of cows? I realize that the calves will look and act in very similar ways to their parents, but do any ever TURN BACK INTO THEIR PARENTS? Or let’s take botany for example. Make a hybrid daylily, and even after years of cross pollenation you still will not get back to the original daylily you started with.

Please find a different subject to harp on than this poor fish.

Goodnight to all,

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58908 10/06/05 10:03 PM
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Deb let's give up for a few days or weeks until the board cools down, I want Pond Boss to be an information source of good information for pond owners

Deb you are the best thing to happen to this board in a long time!

#58909 10/06/05 10:09 PM
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You admit to not knowing, so research hybrids (of all types) before posting again. I do not doubt that you fished ponds and caught varieties, but ponds are stocked by more than man alone. Birds, raccoons, house cats,... all have the ability to transfer eggs, babies, and/or live fish between ponds. It is also possible that you caught a fish that exhibited some traits of another fish.

“You cross breed a bluegill and a green sunfish, you get a mix or a GG. This is Generation 1. I don't know the formula, and don't care, but this is basically ture” - your quote
Whether you care or not, your statement is completely inaccurate. The GG is not a cross between these two individual fish, and if you really do not care, then what is your point here anyway.
“You all never did say what they revert to. It has to be something. So what is it? I say it's the original bluegill and green sunfish. If not that, it's some other little s*^6 fish.” -your quote
Reread the post (or read the entire thing for the first time), and you will realize I did answer that question. They revert to nothing. Each generation is smaller (as with most any hybrid) which is why it is so important to introduce predators in a timely fashion.
“Again, just answer the simple question, after 8 generations what do you get? I say it's a pond full of stunted green sunfish.”- your quote
The question is simple, and has been simply answered on a repeated basis. In fact it is fairly simple to read, and understand (or so I should hope). If stocked proper then you should not get to an 8th generation GG, but if that recommendation is not simple enough for you and you end up with some, then they would be stunted GG’s. Again I urge you to read up on genetics and hybridization. The benefits are endless. I will admit that as you get further down the chain of generations it becomes harder to predict the outcome of traits in the fish (which does introduce a disadvantage), but nothing reverts to an original in the world of hybrids.
Stock what you want to stock and have your own opinions. That is part of the ingenuity of this forum. My job is not to sell, but to try and explain (or in this case defend). Your mind is already made up, so basically you are either bored and indifferent, or have a hidden agenda. Either way, please address me again when you have a substantial argument. I do not know you personally, and I mean no offense in this post, but I believe that the founders of this forum would like to see it put to use in a more productive manner than you have displayed here.
Research, research, Research!!! There have been many questions asked of me that I am still researching, because I truly want to learn. I do not feel the need to waste my time or the time of any of the real professionals here by posting redundant questions (under the same thread), or by trying to belittle someone because I can get away with it. We are all adults here (or at least I should hope so), so let’s all treat one another with respect. Shall we actually learn from the massive load of experience on this site, or simply play mind games that benefit no one in the end?
Jerk your perch, jerk my chain, or jerk whatever else you may wish to, but I have answered your questions, and I stand firm on the belief in my fish. Post whatever you wish (it is a free world), but there is no denying science. Everyone knows my position, so I will attempt not to further feed your fun by posting to you again on this subject.

Thank you for your time (and again if you are sincere in your questioning then Google it),
Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58910 10/06/05 10:22 PM
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You are right Bill, and thank you for the compliment. I have become addicted to the information that has come from the professionals here. Simple mammalian biology was my rut before working with the hatchery. There is so much knowledge and experience here at this site. Bob and company should be proud of what they have designed.
And to think I have only been reading these posts (past and present) for two weeks.
And Greg if you are reading this I also have learned a bit from you (and respected what I did not agree on).
We need to get Bob to host a Pond Boss convention to put us all in the same room. Wow! There's an idea.

Thanks to all,

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58911 10/07/05 05:54 AM
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Deb, I'm not a Pro or geneticist but I do know that crosses get both desirable and undesirable traits from parents. Downline generations in an uncontrolled breeding "program", like a common pond or a mixed herd of cattle can be watered down or strengthened pretty quickly. Only under lab or controlled conditions can you breed true. If a GG breeds with a green sunfish, its progeny will soon water down on desirable traits.

BTW, you stepped in it when you stated that birds, coons and other varmits stock ponds. That's been cussed and discussed extensively here. Scientifically, you can see that the odds are overwhelming. Eggs don't stick to anything but each other. Check the conditions that fish eggs need to hatch. Odds of survival, even under ideal natural conditions, are pretty lousy for both the egg and the ultimate fry. However, in some ponds, life seems to occur. But it is exceedingly rare. Admittedly, mosquito fish seem to show up.

#58912 10/07/05 08:31 AM
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I can't say any thread ever on this site has evoked a variety of so much emotion and passion among the participants. As the administrator, I have watched and listened. My tendency is to leave threads like this one alone, because they usually die and people move on. This one has taken a life of its own, because of the emotions.
Here are a few facts for everyone to understand.
When you cross two species, a hybrid is created. In most scenarios, hybrids can't reproduce. (donkey x horse = mule)
In the case of hybrid sunfish, some of them can reproduce (not all). Their sex ratios are not normal...approximately 95% are males. That also has an impact on reproduction.
Know this...they cannot reproduce to what they are, it's genetically impossible. They also cannot reproduce to what they were. That's impossible, too. Each offspring carries the genes for both parents, which is a mixed pool. Some genetic traits are dominant, others aren't. When fish have a mixed pool, they reproduce and only give a mixed pool, they can't be anything 'pure', ever. They can't become their parents. It's akin to unbaking a cake. That cake will never be the ingredients. It is now a cake.
Hybrid vigor degrades after the first generation. When hybrids cross, dominant traits change. Hybrids cannot reproduce and become what they were. They become a second generation cross with a mixed bag of genes from the parents. Where the second generation crosses, things become confusing, genetically speaking. Those generations are called 'Fx'. Take a bag of red and green confetti, and mix it with a bag of blue and yellow confetti. The 'hybrid' bag is a pretty, even mix of all colors. Take the hybrid bag and mix it with another bag of totally different colors. What do you get? A completely mixed bag of different colors, none of which is the original. It has traits of the original, but isn't. With hybrid sunfish some of those colors are dominant, some of the behaviors are dominant.
Fisheries biologists who recommend hybrid sunfish also recommend stocking no other sunfish with them. That's because the hybrids which do reproduce tend to go at it with other species, such as bluegill, etc.
Typical hybrid sunfish sold in the U.S. are crosses between male bluegill and female green sunfish.
Deb tells us that the Georgia Giant is a proprietary blend of genes. She has no idea what it is. Two people know that blend, and they aren't talking. They have a trademark, a product and loyal base of followers. They have a system they like.
Other companies have programs and systems that they like.
It's pretty funny, traveling the country and meeting different biologists and pond management people. The business is a hybrid. We live in different regions, doing what we do. And, most of us think we invented the business. I'll never forget about ten years ago, when I found out about a pond management guy in South Carolina. I called him. We both were a bit shocked. He pretty much did what I did, and as we compared notes, we were similar. Throw some testosterone into the mix, and we could have been like two roosters, taking credit for all the chicks. Pond management, as a business, is a cottage industry. Individuals learn what they learn, then preach it and prove it. But, the biological principles are the same.
We all operate under these scientific principles, with different opinions. That fact makes pond management an art.
As consumers, you get to pick.
Much of this thread is based on hearsay, with a limited understanding exactly how genetics work, bolstered by other hearsay as evidence.
Deb has explained it well.
If someone has green sunfish, they didn't come from the hybrids. It can't happen. Hybrids are hybrids, cake is cake.


Teach a man to grow fish...
He can teach to catch fish...
#58913 10/07/05 08:35 AM
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Dave you are exactly right about the undesirable traits. Basically we are talking about micro-evolution versus macro-evolution. With macro-evolution (man-made or guided), the uncertainty of predictable or even desired traits becomes higher with each generation. So the possibility of a real freak appearing way down the line is always real. But again this can be avoided with the proper introduction of predators. Keep the originals and maybe a set of offspring, and let the remainder be eaten.
And I am sure I did “step in it” with the transfer proposal. But “eggs sticking to each other” is not the only means of transfer. Grown fish carried by the mouth of another creature or bird, or even a neighbor who wants to “improve your pond” without you knowing it are also possibilities. I have seen a large number of customers (as well as a pond on my late grandfather’s farm) who never put a single fish in their pond but could catch them out. I have been surprised at the numbers and variety of fish that have popped up when a customer uses rotenone on a pond that was “never stocked”. Something is happening out there. Nature is hard on the eggs and fry (we use a hatchery for this reason), but as you said it does happen so we can’t dismiss the possibilities.

Shoot, I promised Bill I would let the board cool down before I popped up again \:\( . Sorry to all. I’ll post some pictures if we get them this weekend, and otherwise try to keep my mouth (or hands rather) shut.
Thank you all again for the information, the corrections, and the open-minded responses you have given me over the past few weeks. Let’s really hit Bob up for a convention sometime so we can all sit down and sponge from one another.

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58914 10/07/05 09:46 AM
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Robinson, I read and post questions on the Miss. forum. It seems that Dennis is, in many cases, due to fear of posting misinformation, a 'by the book' poster, and doesn't post from firsthand experiences. I hope that is a kind enough assessment, especially compared to Matthew's critique under GG growth rates. Settle down matthew. It's not your money.


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Deb,

Somewhere in an earlier post, you asked for a rancher to comment....well that need has probably been overcome by events now with Bob's excellent post setting the record straight on the genetics, but it did cause me, a rancher (among other things), to think about something.

First, you are exactly right...a brahama x angus, called a Brangus, will never, ever
produce an Angus offspring, in my experience, no matter how many generations you go....hence the green sunfish offspring claim is bogus.

The thing I do not understand when comparing fish crosses to cattle crosses, is the tendency for the offspring of GG, after several generations, to stunt. You've said they were "stunted GG's". Now, my Brangus cows offspring certainly do not stunt after generations. Why, in fish, unlike what I observe in cows, do the hybrids stunt after generations? Is it a genetics thing or something else?

I'm just trying to learn, fish genetics is really interesting to me and something I know very little about. Thanks.

p.s. ahhh thinking more, it must be the "inbreeding"? If I practiced "inbreeding" with cows, it would certainly result in inferior offspring. Is that it? If so, we overcome that in cows by getting rid of all offspring and buying new breeders from an outside line...same thing in GG's I bet. Okay, sorry to think outloud...please correct me if wrong, but I think I've figured it out.

p.s.s that brings up another question, are GG's more prone to effects of inbreeding than say regular BG? They must be because I never get stunted BG from successive generations of inbreeding, at least I've never seen it.

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Yep, it is the whole inbreeding thing (works in humans also ;\) ). That is why predator introduction is so important. Thanks for the cattle analogy!

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


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