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#58917 - 10/07/05 11:34 AM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
Debra King Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
Oops, missed the last question. Maybe stunted is not the correct word to use. Let's say smaller than the original stock instead so everyone will together as hybrids do tend to degenerate. The F-1 GG are huge, with successive generations getting smaller (or stunted {its all verbiage}). They are still a good fish, but do not have the tremendous growth potential of the parents. Plus alot of people add bluegill, coppernose,and other bream to a stock of GG's which results in yet another cross.

Deb
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#58918 - 10/07/05 12:06 PM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
Dave Davidson Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 1892
Loc: Hurst & Bowie Texas
Robinson, as they said in the movies "Life always finds a way".

Here's my thought on the odds. First, figure that the "normal" set of eggs will produce an extremely small number of adult (breeding size) fish.

Since we are talking essentially about a sunfish, I'll limit my post to them. Eggs that are spawned in running water are different but still have lousy odds.

Step one is the male hustling a willing female to his just built nest. It must be positioned in shallow enough water so that the sunshine can somehow get to the eggs (or so I have been told). She lays eggs that he fertilizes. She leaves and he takes over. He ontinually "sweeps" over the nest with his tail to keep silt from settling on them and to oxygenate them. He also guards the nest from the myriad of predators including just about every other fish in the pond. After watching this many times, I'm amazed that any of them make it. He also has to worry about his own safety during this time. If anything happens to him, the whole setup goes and the eggs are groceries for the other fish. If everything works just right, the eggs hatch into fry that are still pretty defenseless except for dad's protection. Quite often, he is overwhelmed by the small fish going for the fry and/or eggs and leaves. At that point, they have had it. However, some seem to make it out of the thousands of eggs laid. They exist on their yoke sack until they are big enough to graze on plankton and later small bugs. By now, they have become and will remain forage for a long time. A very small number of the eggs ever even get to the forage stage. But, if everything goes just right, it becomes a breeding size fish.

Now contrast that to an egg that is dropped randomly in the water by a bird or something else. It is neither oxygenated nor protected by dad and there is nothing to keep it from getting covered by silt. If, by some miracle, it has remained fertile during this process, it is defenseless as a fry. The very small number that occurs under ideal conditions becomes infinitesimal when deposited randomly.

However, like I originally posted, somehow mosquito fish seem to crop up. That defies all of the logic I just laid out. But I still believe that the numbers on non human intervention are almost mathematically incalculable.

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#58919 - 10/07/05 01:06 PM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
burgermeister Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
Wow, Dave, and I thought bluegill were prolific. Seems as they are struggling to fight off extinction. \:D
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#58920 - 10/07/05 03:10 PM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19590
Loc: Miss.
BM :

Food for thought.
What do you think?

---------------------------------------------
Prohibited Fishes and Aquatic Fauna

Electric Catfish African Tigerfish Airbreathing Catfish Parasitic Catfish
Electric Eel Lampreys Piranha Snakeheads
Tilapias Trahiras Airsac Catfish Green Sunfish
Australian Crayfish Zebra Mussel Mitten Crab Statutes (PDF)

To protect and conserve Florida's natural aquatic resources and help ensure public safety, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) prohibits (see list above) or restricts (see Restricted fishes) certain non-native fishes and aquatic fauna. Moreover, no person shall allow or permit any freshwater aquatic organism not native to the state to remain in the waters of any pond which is not maintained or operated for the production of such non-native species.

The FWC uses well-defined criteria to determine where a species should appear on the list. The most current list is available by checking the statutes (See 68A-23.008). Species that were included on the list as of July 2003 are described on this page. In general, prohibited non-native aquatic species, listed in red in the link box above, may not be imported, sold, possessed or transported in Florida. Very limited exceptions are made by permit for viewing at large public aquaria or for research, provided Commission-approved maximum security requirements are met. No exceptions are made for certain prohibited species, such as piranha. Research permits for prohibited aquatic species are also very stringent.
Restricted non-native aquatic species, listed in brown in the link box above, may only be possessed under permit from the executive director. Prior to the issuance of such permit, the facilities where the restricted aquatic species are to be kept and waters where their use is intended may be inspected by Commission personnel to assure that adequate safeguards exist to prevent escape or accidental release into the waters of the state.

Note that much of the information on this page was taken from Fish base and "Living Fishes of the World," by Herald, or from the "Identification Guide to the Restricted and Prohibited Exotic Fishes," which was edited by Lt. Tom Quinn for FWC.

PROHIBITED SPECIES

GREEN SUNFISH

(Lepomis cyanellus)

Common Names - green sunfish, the hybrid is a (Georgia giant)

Description - A slender bodied bream with a maximum depth that is less than the distance from the snout to the origin of the dorsal (most sunfish are deeper bodied). Mouth relatively large, extending to the middle of the eye. Color is blue-green on back with mottled yellow green streaks. Gill cover is dark but has a light yellowish margin as does the edge of the fins.

Species - One

Range - From North America but do not naturally extend into Florida.

Habitat - Lakes and ponds.

Spawning Habits - Similar to other sunfish.

Feeding Habits - Similar to other sunfish

Age and Growth - To 12 inches and perhaps two pounds.

Potential Concerns - Known to rapidly colonize a water body but then to stunt and may also hybridize with other bream affecting the gene pool. L. cyanellus is prohibited.

Site listed below.

http://www.floridafisheries.com/Fishes/prohibited.html#greenies

-------------------------------------------------
http://www.aquaticmanagement.com/history.htm

Dad put several strains of these hybrids into commercial production and helped others do so. He was a prime resource for Ken Holiyoke's much advertised Georgia Giant. As a teenager, I was present on Holiyoke's farm in Alapaha, Georgia when Dad showed him how to produce them. This is a link to that site Georgia Giant Hybrid. However, the site makes exaggerated claims about the hybrid.

Byron T. Bezdek
-------------------------------------------

This may help in a year or two

The Ohio State University
South Center

Funded and funding projects:

New species or strain exploration for Ohio aquaculture industry – Determining the efficacy of culture of Georgia Giant bluegill in comparison with regular bluegill and hybrid bluegill. 09/2005 – 09/2007.

http://southcenters.osu.edu/aqua/researchs.htm
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#58921 - 10/07/05 03:45 PM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
burgermeister Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
ewest, that is definitely food for thought. I will be following that experiment closely. For now, I just want BG and RES to do their thang together. When should I reduce visibility in the spring? 70-75 degrees or when for natural crossing?
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#58922 - 10/07/05 03:52 PM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
Dave Davidson Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 1892
Loc: Hurst & Bowie Texas
ML, I was once told that inbreeding in cows is OK unless a bull mates with a "true daughter". I have no idea whether that is correct. I have to admit that I haven't seen the result of that. I've kept the same bull for 3 or 4 years. It has mated with everything. I generally changed bulls when they got about 6 or 7 years old. At that time, I understand that the sperm count drops.

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#58923 - 10/07/05 04:00 PM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
Dave Davidson Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 1892
Loc: Hurst & Bowie Texas
Ewest, thanks for the post and links.

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#58924 - 10/07/05 04:14 PM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
Debra King Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
Hello to all!
Anyone who came in contact with Francis Bezdek was forever touched. He was by all rights a leader, not a follower, and gave a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience to the field that he essentially founded. When I first began working on the idea of hybrids some 30 plus years ago, Francis was the only person available with the same interests as I. He had already begun his trek down the hybrid route, and was readily eager to work with me in my quests. On at least 3-4 occasions that I can remember, he took time out of his busy life to join me on my farm for a week or so each visit. We worked side by side, and he stimulated me to continue on my search for the best hybrid available. I considered him a personal friend and a wonderfully kind-hearted person who was a true inspiration to me. We kept in touch often over the years before his passing, and he was nothing but a positive influence in my life and my work. He worked on hybrids, I worked on hybrids, and we worked on them together. The last fish that he and I shared the recipe on however was not the true Georgia Giant. Although we spoke on the phone often, he did not come back to the farm after I had stumbled onto the Georgia Giant. I believe he was as excited for me at that time as I was. I must again state that his influence is probably the reason I held out as long as I did while working toward the Georgia Giant (and several other hybrids [not just bream]}. It is really a loss to all of us here that he is not on this forum to share his expertise.

Ken Holyoak
_________________________
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#58925 - 10/07/05 05:46 PM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19590
Loc: Miss.
BM :

You have raised a good question. I will start a thread tonight called BG X RE crosses and will include some info and questions to get others advice. I think we need to keep it seperate from this 10 page plus GG topic. ewest
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#58926 - 10/07/05 06:03 PM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
Bill Duggan Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 625
Loc: Flatrock, Ga.
Deb I assume the BG/RE would have been one of the first hybrids Ken tried. Ask Ken what were the negatives of this hybrid and please post it under Ewest new thread

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#58927 - 10/08/05 01:13 AM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
bz Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 844
Loc: Minnesota
Been following this post and has been very interesting, educational, and I might say entertaining. The whole discussion on green sunfish has been a kick. Not so hard on Mr. Robinson folks. I think all of us get a little sloppy when we discuss what kind of offspring result from hybrids. I mean any biologist or statistician would be the first to say that a hybrid BG's offspring can never be a pure green sunfish or BG. I don't think anyone here means that when they talk about fish reverting, including the fisheries guy from Mississippi. I'm not a genetics expert but I do understood probability and the concept of dominant and recessive genetics. Mr. Lusk did a great job of explaining how this works but I can add something to his confetti analogy that I think will help explain what people have seen when they see hybrid offspring that look like green sunfish. Instead of confetti imagine you have a bag full of M&Ms. You cross a green sunfish and a bluegill. Let's say the bluegill represents black and blue M&M's. The sunfish represents green and yellow M&M's. The first generation hybrid cross may have equal amounts of black, blue, green, and yellow M&M's. In subsequent generations some of the bags will inevitably have almost all green and yellow M&M's with only a couple of black and blue ones. No future generation will ever have zero black and blue M&M's because those genes were in the parents and just get covered up by dominant genes. But some bags have almost all green and yellow with only one or two black and blue ones. Now you melt the whole bag of M&M's. What's happened to the black and blue ones? There still there, you just can't see them in the mess. Is this a pure bag of green and yellow M&M's? No, the couple of black and blue ones are still there you just can't see them. I maintain that what Mr. Robinson has seen in subesquent generations of HBG are fish that look and act just like green sunfish. Are they pure green sunnies? No. The bluegill lineage is mixed in there somewhere but has gotten so diluted you can't see it. So come on you all, eighth generation GG's are no longer GG. Sorry Deb but to say so is a mind game unless GG is a new species. All offspring will have some random mix of genes from both parents with characteristics that depend on the combination of genes they ended up with. Many will no doubt be very different from the original stock. That's where the bad traits show up. And if there is any green sunfish in the mix some offspring will look just like green sunfish even though they technically aren't. When we say hybrids have "reverted" we're just a little sloppy with terminology. If you want to know if any GG offspring can look and act like green sunnies then I say the question to ask Deb is whether there is any green sunfish in the mix. The secret formula will not be compromised just by admitting that one part of the recipe is green sunfish. And this would clear up the whole issue. I think anyone who buys GG deserves to know if they will some day "revert" go green sunfish. If there is green sunfish in the lineage then anyone who says they "revert" to green sunfish may not be technically correct but they are correct in saying some of the kids will look just like green sunnies. No one will be able to tell they aren't without a DNA or some kind of chromosome analysis. I'm not trying to pick on GG, in fact I'd still love to get some one day but if we are all interested in truth I think we need to at least know if there are GSF in the mix.
_________________________
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#58928 - 10/08/05 07:50 AM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
Dave Davidson Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 1892
Loc: Hurst & Bowie Texas
Well said, BZ. I think to boil it down, some of the subsequent progeny will have large mouths and spawn once annually and others won't. It really would be interesting to know what F5 and so on will "probably" be like.

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#58929 - 10/08/05 11:52 AM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
Debra King Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
Very well stated! The M & M analogy is a perfect comparison. You are right to point out that we all get caught up (or mixed up) in the verbiage we use to describe hybrids. This being said, I do not agree that eighth generation GG’s are not called GG’s. I promise you there is no mind game here, but it just stands to reason that they would still be titled that due to the lineage. One could name each generation different, but I do not see the purpose behind that. Take your candy analogy. Once you have mixed the bag of M & M’s several times, do you still have M & M’s? Or have you made a new candy treat? It does need to be explained that the subsequent generations are different from the parents, with the traits and appearances of each generation being less likely to predict (and less desirable). Calling for predators? Eradicate the subsequent generations, and the discussion is null. Our main goal with the GG was to create a bream sportsman’s dream (not to mention a child’s). In any hybrid the first generation will far outweigh any subsequent ones due to the controlled environment in which they were “made.”
I believe you have a very good grasp on the genetic’s concept, but I do not agree that the offspring would not fall under the same name. If I am wrong, then what should we call them? The possibilities would be endless due the uncontrolled environment they would be in. Throw a few other types of bream in a GG pond, and someone could spend a lifetime identifying each offspring and naming it solely on its individual traits. In summary we just keep it as a “cluster” name due to original parentage. Kind of following the KISS theory. :p

If I am not making any sense, it might be due to MY offspring (two ½ years) who keeps crawling around underneath my legs and over my lap ( trying to type in his two cents worth ). I do not think that is a trait he inherited from me.

As for the green’s in the GG mix, I will have to ask Ken. I really do not know. That is a secret he keeps well hidden obviously because no one has been able to duplicate the fish to date.

Thank you also to the gentleman who provided the link to the Ohio research department. This will indeed be a good study to follow, as all the fish will be controlled. This in turn will give us a very accurate take on the true comparisons of the different fish under study.

Deb
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Do fish actually kiss?



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#58930 - 10/08/05 06:59 PM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
will Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 59
Loc: Fredericksburg, Texas
Wouldn't in the analogy M&Ms bream/sunfish family species.
Let's call 8th genaration & on GEORGIA GREEN SUNFISH

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#58931 - 10/08/05 11:27 PM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
bz Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 844
Loc: Minnesota
Good point Deb, what should we call them? I guess that's why someone invented the terms F1, F2, etc. So I still say it is not correct and perhaps misleading to call them GG. Not saying you are misleading on purpose it's just that F2 are not the same as F1 and just like the analogy if there is GSF in the mix a later generation could look and act just like GSF. Remember that's what this whole discussion was about. Are they GG? Are they GSF? No they are the F8 generation of GG. I think I just got you to admit that if there is GSF in the mix then GG offspring could look and act just like GSF. I'm not sure but one could perhaps argue that there is a precident for calling a mixed breed animal what it looks like and not what its parents were. Take horses, if two mixed breeds who look like quarter horses have an offspring that is paint (I think that can happen) everyone will call it a paint. They don't call it a quarter horse. Anyone think of examples with other animals?
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#58932 - 10/09/05 12:15 AM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
Debra King Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
Take a moment if you will and move from fish to flowers (as hybrids). Move down from Family, to Genus, to species, and then you will discover subspecies. I think this would be more in line with what are talking about. F-1 = First filial generation or the first generation offspring from the parents. Offspring from the F1 hybrids are called F2 hybrids. Some will look like the parents, others like the original (grandparent), and entirely new combinations are also possible. You never know due to the uncontrolled environment and most importantly the role genetics play. Survival of the fittest is derivative of the traits needed for the particular environment of the subject. Introduce the dominant gene which varies in each subspecies based on need (and often just chance), and you are presented with a wide variety of possibilities.

Quote from a link below:

"Things start to get complicated when variation within species needs recognition by use of further names. When plants have a wide distribution in the wild, natural selection and evolution work at different rates in different areas, especially if populations become geographically isolated. Such populations are often distinguished as subspecies (abbreviated to subsp. or occasionally ssp. but this can easily be confused with spp., the abbreviation for species plural, so is not recommended), easily attributable to the species but differing in significant characters. Once a particular population is recognized as a subspecies and given a name, plants typical of the species automatically become a subspecies bearing the name of the species."

http://www.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantnaming.asp

I enjoy horticulture also, so pardon all the plant analogies but please do not dismiss them.

So to summarize, F-8 GG’s are still GG’s but with different characteristics than those of the parent stock.

Any other posts on this will be continuing in a circular pattern with you and I continuing to bump our heads together. So we will agree to disagree, respect one another’s opinions, and leave the truth to science.

Deb
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Do fish actually kiss?



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#58933 - 10/09/05 12:48 AM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
burgermeister Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
I cant understand why anyone continues bumping heads with anyone. The facts are, hybrids of sunfish are not intended to be perpetuated; who cares what they are called. Call them LMB food. Please, let's get off this Merry go Round.
Bob, close the thread, please!
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#58934 - 10/09/05 10:05 AM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19590
Loc: Miss.
"the phenomenon of reductionn in fitness following intraspecific hybridization (matings between individuals from different populations), either in the immediate hybrids or perhaps delayed until the backcross or later generations."

This is the definition of " outbreeding depression" from the text of " Population Genetics: Principles and Applications for Fisheries Scientists" , Eric M. Hallerman, Editor , AFS 2003.

If you want to read about it and have access to the book look at ppgs 242-245 para. 11.4.

You decide if it applies or not and what is at risk in your pond. Until the science is known and understood by disinterested Fisheries Scientists you take an unknown risk.

Hybrid sunfish have a very limited niche as described by Bob Lusk in his posts and books ( speaking of hybrid sunfish -- "...and the fish ,although hybrid , have a tendency to reproduce just enough to be a headache to a manager. When they do reproduce, they cannot physically be what their parents are, because they are "backcrosses," inferior to their parents. " [ Basic Pond Management , Lusk and McDonald 1993 pg. 36 ]. This is echoed by opinions of all the Fisheries Scientists I know or have read.

If you want GG in your pond it is up to you. I would make two suggestions --1) do not count on them to create self sustaining sunfish populations with the fitness of the original hybrids and 2) don't put them in ponds that have or will have other types of sunfish (BG/RE etc.)as you have no idea of what the results would be with an outcross of a GG x BG or RE will leave you with. ewest
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#58935 - 10/09/05 01:36 PM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
Bill Duggan Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 625
Loc: Flatrock, Ga.
Ewest your two suggestions are exactly what Kens catalog states clearly

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#58936 - 10/10/05 09:01 AM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
Matt Clark Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 822
Loc: S.E. Iowa
Well, my situation will be interesting, although GG's are not involved (standard HBG, purchased from MO hatcher).

My first pond has HBG, standard BG, CC and LMB along with RES in it. It is just starting to produce some nice gills. Second pond (not filled yet) will have same mix, with the exception of the HBG. I'm planning on leaving them out, as I've a source for some really DANDY BG's, and am able to catch them readily.

Maybe I shouldn't have mixed the two, but they're both in there. Time will tell. I'm not the most patient person, but over the years, I'll be able to see the difference, if one exists.
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#58937 - 10/10/05 10:40 AM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19590
Loc: Miss.
Matt :

Note that my "suggestions" were for GG . They did not address standard HBG . The info is known on HBG , BG and RE and thus a pond owner can have a good idea on what will happen and make an informed choice. I would not worry about what you did . I bet it will turn out ok. The only ones I would caution you about are GSF and GG. The first with known poor results and the second with unknown results. ewest
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#58938 - 10/10/05 07:26 PM Re: Georgia Giant Bream
Ric Swaim Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 1902
Loc: Surry Co NC
 Quote:
The only ones I would caution you about are GSF and GG. The first with known poor results and the second with unknown results . ewest
That's why I am skeptical about GG's. 40 yrs of production & no data.
All these questions should have already been answered.
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