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#58867 09/30/05 09:23 AM
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I don't think it was Java. Maybe moonshine, or grain for that matter.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#58868 09/30/05 11:32 AM
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Wow I took a look at some pictures of fish claiming to be GG’s and they were impressive. If GG are as good as claimed in growth, and aggressiveness they could fill a very interesting market. I suspect many pond owners strive for their ponds to produce state citation LMB and dream of catching a state record. For some one interesting in growing a state recorded sunfish the GG looks as if I could become the fish of choice. Have Any GG’s been confirmed as State Record holders? Would they be eligleble in most states because they are hybrids? Has any attempted a pond with male only GG?

#58869 09/30/05 12:37 PM
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JBoat - Your comment about male only GG's is partly where I was going when I asked early in this thread about documented ratios of males vs females in each spawn. Deb said: "This has never been validated by anyone outside of the hatchery (still varies with batch to batch), but that is a good idea." Deb did not provide any of the sex ratio's from the hatchery data files. I will ask for more information relating to this in my Topic Starter Question under the category - see Types of Fish to Choose - Georgia Giant Growth Rates.


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#58870 10/03/05 09:59 AM
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Ric, thanks I had already decided to not respond to ML. However one last attempt to answer to his commetns. I will not lower myself anymore to the diatribe. I did not start this backup mind you. IN fact I had let it go and made positive comments over the last few months. However right back to sarcasim again.

Past sarcastic remarks...he tried to make it seem I answer questions based on profit, nothing farther from the truth and that is what set me off.

He made the last comments he disagrees about stocking grass carp in dead of summer. I do not stock grass carp in Texas, I just got back 106 degrees you think I said it was ok to stock then, WRONG! I never said that. I might have stated I never have problems sotcking here in summer with grass carp. I do not have problems but would not attempt if hotter than 90.

Fertilize when you already have weeds, WHERE did I say that? In fact on the board you can find comments warning folks about fertilzing with weeds.

"Catch big bass as well as small bass." This was never big vs. small it was healthy vs hungry. Not a wordsmith but thought that was pretty clear. Ric is right you do have it againist me and I stated I will not try to change your stance not that you can not state your opinion.

Ok 'nuff said. I defended those comments even though most folks knew I did not make 'em. So ML you seem to always want the last word so go off on me again I will not comment back. I'm done with it.


Greg Grimes
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#58871 10/03/05 08:01 PM
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All this madness over a f'n perch ? Too Funny. Just for grins, I would throw in 100 or so just to compare them against Bgill & Redear...if GG can't survive and oversize the competition in a neutral environment, what good are they ? If they out compete and grow larger, I would take note annually...but, on a very limited basis. Being a 3rd generation pond owner I've seen a LOT. If and when I'm going to pry open the wallet, it's not going to be spent on inferrior fish or snacks to bulk up weight. Improve the habitat and forage base if you desire big fish.

#58872 10/03/05 09:00 PM
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I've been reading all the threads on GG and find them very interesting. I have been interested in GG's for years and would have bought some if my state would have allowed them in. I've talked to everyone I can find about whether the GG really lives up to its claims but have found no one in the past with experience. I gave up trying when I came to this site. So this is really interesting. I'm not defending GG since I never did get any. But I really think some of you are missing the difference between what most of you do and what Ken sets people up for. He intends to sell fish to people who want to grow a lot of very big BG that you don't let reproduce because you want one year class of fish to grow big. When I was looking at GG it was made clear to me that Ken's standard recommendation is for the person who is willing to manage the heck out of his pond to get the most pounds of big fish. His default approach is not that of creating an ecological balanced system. He specializes in fish farming. In that respect it appears he knows what he's doing. So if you factor this difference in I think it explains the differences in approach and recommendation. I didn't by GG but I did stock hybrid BG from local source because I wanted one year class that grew big. I also stocked way over what you guys recommned. I have a 1/2 acre pond with 1000 HBG. That's 2000 per acre. Has it worked? You bet, mine are 3 years old and pushing 1 pound. Not as fast as Ken claims for GG but I'm happy, not bad for Minnesota where pond is iced for 5 months. Yes I live right by my pond and I manage it hard. I aerate and feed every day, twice a day when the sun is rising before I go to work. I manually remove weeds to keep the pond open. I've had no problems with fish survival. In 3 years I've found two dead fish and both of those were expected since I badly hooked 2 fish just prior to them showing belly up. Yes I will probably have to poison it out and start over some day. But I've had a lot of fun growing them and I started catching 1/2 pound fish the second year they were in my pond. I only had one full summer where I couldn't catch and eat fish. So for my goals the hybrid route has done what I want and I'll probably do it again. Hats off to you guys with the time, knowledge, and patience to construct a balanced enviroment and grow an ecosystem. Maybe I'll get smart enough to do that some day but for now I like big BG fast.


Gotta get back to fishin!
#58873 10/04/05 06:39 AM
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BZ is the state restricting all fish imports or just GG's

#58874 10/04/05 08:35 AM
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BZ, very good summary of another approach vs. high maintenance. I live 2 states west of my pond, so cant manage it tightly, but, like you, want a little fun for me and grand kids when possible. Large bream fit that niche.


#58875 10/04/05 11:57 AM
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Food for thought:

I understand the doubts that have been placed on board both in the current threads and of those past, but has anyone on this board actually bought our fish and followed or program (water chemistry included) “by the book”. I stopped Ken early this morning as I arrived for work, and discussed with him the many issues that are being brought forth. I am printing off all of the threads and responses for him to review, and then I will post his responses accordingly.
That being said, he brought out several points to me as we stood outside the office this morning. Ken graduated from UGA under the same program type that Greg and many others were under. The difference was that he did it over 40 years ago (program name was different, but many classes were ths same). In other words, the state has not changed their teachings. This could be because it works or because of habit. Anyway, Ken has spent the past 40 some odd years experimenting and improving on techniques and applications both with the fish themselves and with improving water quality and conditions in order to get maximum growth. Several references have been made that Ken is basically out there just to make a quick buck. But if that was truly the case, why would we practice the same procedures on all of our ponds. It must truly be more cost effective to us to “practice what we preach”. Not too many people can say they continually maintain 50 plus ponds on a single 1500 acre plot. Some ponds are experimental, some for fingerlings, some for adults (for the genetic pooling that comprises the GG), some for fish out, and at least one (behind the office that is a “catch all”. This particular pond has not been drained for 20 years, and it catches anything that escapes the hatchery and loading (pickup) dock. Yet all of these ponds are highly productive. And all are based on “the program” that we recommend to customers and potential clients. All ponds are feed, aerated, dyed, and limed (according to pH only). We use calcium and bufferin for hardness and alkalinity levels, and measure these by gpg. No we do not have to continuously add these two products, as they have a POTENTIAL life span of ag lime, but with more benefits. Hydrated lime on the other hand is only recommended at 25 lbs per acre per week to raise pH if needed. Granted hydrated lime has a much shorter life span, but the growing season is not year long. We stopped using ag lime years ago when we discovered that these products listed above were more cost effective, lasted long term, grew above quality fish, and did not need the constant “management” that other products needed.
Now, Ken’s Hatchery and Fish Farm does not specialize in pond management, where as a lot of forum members derive their sole income from this one practice. I understand there is a need for this work out there, and am by no means poking light at what you do. It is a very big part of the equation. We do have a sub-contractor who handles some pond management for the customer's that request it. So it could be said that it would actually be to the economic advantage of a person in that field to design a plan for a pond that would require the “expert’s” maintenance program versus a simple plan that would allow a customer with limited knowledge in the field to “handle things on their own”. Again I will state that I do see the need for professional pond managers, but not every pondowner needs them, wants them, or can afford them. That is the "niche" we fill (as some would say).
I am sure this post will tick quite a few people off, but I promise that is not the intention. I am simply posing questions that need to be asked. As I have stated many times prior, I am still a fledgling in the fishery field, so I will rely on the experiences of others as well as my own research before I can start passing out my personal recommendations. The argument I am proposing is this; We have done it both ways. Have any of you? Comments before were made about having to go behind and “clean up” after us, but this is merely hearsay. Until one individual uses trial and error with BOTH programs, a true educational comparative analysis can not be given in regards to the way we operate. As Ken stated to me this morning, “I spent a lot of years doing it wrong, and am comfortable that I am on the right track now. But mind you I am still learning”. I think this last statement can apply to all of us. The minute we close our minds to the potential changes that can be implemented in this field, is the minute we become self indulgent “omnipotent” lecturers who have a long term benefit for no one.

Boy I bet I just opened Pandora’s Box!!!

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58876 10/04/05 12:10 PM
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Deb as far as I know I am the only regular poster on the board which has stocked GG and as I have stated before I have not followed Ken's plan. IMO no one is going to spend the time and money to follow Ken's plan unless they are a "Pond Boss" like the rest of us. With all the ponds you stock and the feedback you recieve there must be numerous pond owners who you could request that they join the fun and post on the site

#58877 10/04/05 12:15 PM
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bz -check with the state to find out if it is the fish they do not allow, or our sale of the fish in that state. A few states do not allow our truck to enter the state without having a very expensive permit, but they will allow the customer to transport the fish into the state. For example in the Spring of 2004, I had a customer from Minn. or Wyoming drive to Northern Illinois to meet our truck at another customer's pond. My driver bagged the fish with oxygen for travel, and the fish made it back fine. It is also a possibility to ship fish (from any hatchery)by UPS.

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58878 10/04/05 12:21 PM
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One step ahead of you Bill! I spoke with a very nice customer from Prospect, Tn. this morning who swears by the GG. I mentioned the forum as a good place to learn about a variety of topics and opinions. He said that he and his son or grandson one just sat down awhile back and gorged themselves on 8 large GG. He said he would research the site, and make a post.
My only concern with asking customers to post would be with Mr. Lusk. I do not by any means want him to misinterpret a customer's post as a sales ploy by me.

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58879 10/04/05 01:26 PM
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Deb, I DID see where you requested to buy some ad space. BTW, I better order a subcription or I may get bumped. Seriously, I am going to subscribe.


#58880 10/04/05 04:17 PM
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To all, it is not that my state will not allow GG imported, they will no allow any fish that does not have a health certificate that is done by an independent lab to their satisfaction. I must say that years ago I talked to Ken a bunch about this. He was willing to do whatever it took including sending fish to a lab to get tested. But then it got more complicated. There needs to be a standard test sample from each pond tested, that meant a number of fish (60 I think), plus I needed a certification that the tested fish came from the pond that was tested. Then my state requires a permit which includes the date, approximate time, travel route, vehicle license number for which the fish will be transported. It was also interesting that they informed me that they have never issued any permits to import GG into Minnesota and their suspicion was that if any were being sold here it was illegal. It is clear that if you have customers who drive out of state to pick them up themselves they are doing it to avoid the health permit issues and hence are illegal. You could call this all overkill but they tell me the biggest reason for the health stuff is they are really working hard to try to keep LMB virus out of the state. They stated that if a hatchery cannot provide the standard health test of 60 fish per pond and certification that what they sell is from that pond then you don't want to deal with them because they aren't following standard health protocol. I concluded that this is just more than you guys are used to in southern states and I gave up on the whole idea of importing anything from anywhere. I was stuck buying fish locally for 10 times the price I could get from out of state.


Gotta get back to fishin!
#58881 10/04/05 06:36 PM
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I do not need to "stock by the book" to know I'm throwing good money after bad, that's way too many fish for pond I visit every 2-4 weeks. Offer me a plan that keeps both predators and GG in balance. Please offer a more reasonable stocking plan with growth that exceeds bgill or redear by a marginal %. I want all fish to have high relative weight ratios. (not that they do) I feel ahead of the curve stocking HSB, LMB, Crappie, Cats, & Tilapia. Bgill are everywhere this Fall. Does the GG have anything to offer ? Or does the GG need a pond specifically designed for them ?

#58882 10/05/05 09:38 AM
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Eastland the GG has alot more to offer than your average BG, and a pond does NOT have to be built specifically for them. We have customers that raise 100 on up depending on the wants and needs of that individual customer.
I sent Ken to the bank vault this morning to retrieve some photos. Most are on slides, so I will have Walmart convert them tonight if I have time. But I did find several of "Bubba" (thanks Bruce!)on the day he was caught and the day following.
I will now attempt to post these...


Sorry they took up so much space!

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58883 10/05/05 01:28 PM
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MAN!!! thoes could not Possibly be REAL......are they??? Come on.....them thangs bigger than Crappie!!! Heck he's the size of a basket ball!!!

#58884 10/05/05 01:32 PM
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I'm speechless, all I can say is "DANG"!



#58885 10/05/05 01:46 PM
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That is the actual (no replica there) 5 pounder that went in the record books. Now mind you 2-3 lbs over 3-4 years in good water is our average growth, but can you just imagine hooking something like that? The slides of others (1-2 pounds and such) are at Wal-Mart now, so I will be able to post those Thursday!

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58886 10/05/05 01:55 PM
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I agree with Shorty, "Dang!!!!"

I can't wait and see what the "mad scientist", ML will do with these things.

Take a little kid perch fishing for these and you will see their eyes as big as the fish.

#58887 10/05/05 02:02 PM
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TEXAS715,

Actually, I do intend to find out for myself what these critters will do in an East Texas pond....it's the least I can do to keep up my reputation. \:D

#58888 10/05/05 02:04 PM
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And see what will happen when they are big enough to eat small tilapia!


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
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#58889 10/05/05 02:14 PM
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Yep, they are going into the kid's pond with Tilapia and Rio's and most likely HSB as the predator...my grandkids are gonna love that pond, I hope.

#58890 10/05/05 03:06 PM
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Deb, where do I even begin on this one. I wish first I had more time. I have not brought up past experiences with clients of Ken’s since you started answering questions. I left that alone for others to figure out for themselves. However you have still avoided answering some questions. I posted here only b/c I believe I’m the person you are referring to in the above post. BTW that is the same picture on the catalog and figured folks would flip out. What does that proof?

Let me go through the post… “Ken graduated from UGA under the same program that Greg and many others were under. The difference was that he did it over 40 years ago. In other words, the state has not changed their teachings. This could be because it works or because of habit.”

1. It states in his bio graduated with agriculture degree from UGA. SO this is not the same degree I have. Also bachelors vs. masters. I did not even want to go there. I think Ken is well educated in fish/aquaculture etc. However you are going to bring it up be at least accurate. 2. I agree many similar concepts being taught. I have on post credited Ken with thinking outside the box and this is good. However some the principals are being taught b/c they work.

“It must truly be more cost effective to us to “practice what we preach”. Not too many people can say they continually maintain 50 plus ponds on a single 1500 acre plot.”

This is my point exactly you have an aquaculture facility not a sport fishing facility. This is huge diff in stocking a pond for quick growout managed intensively for growth and removal vs. continued growth for years of fishing. I hope you know the difference of these two without explanation.

“So to turn things around on a certain someone, it would actually be to the economic advantage of a person in that field to design a plan for a pond that would require the “expert’s” maintenance program versus a simple plan that would allow a customer with little knowledge in the field to “handle things on their own”. Again I will state that I do see the need for professional pond manager, but not every pondowner needs it, wants it, or can afford it. That is the "niche" we fill (as some would say).”

Where to begin with this one? Guess how many ponds we manage that we stock? About 10% maybe less. So do not see the argument for many reasons. In fact now you claim client “can handle things on their own” when in other post you admit that your plan requires high maintenance, make up your mind. So you argue if I propose stocking 1,00 bluegill/acre with 50-100 bass it will require more “experts” than if stocking 3,000 and 600 bass? Deb come on. My “sales pitch” is that with proper stocking no further stocking is necessary if managed properly. Then I tell them what to do themselves. If they stocked all the GG, bass, HSb and cats you suggest this is no way the case ti will require some serious intense management. I guess I should be happy about your plan b/c it leads them to me for managing b/c it is so screwed up from over stocking.

“The argument I am proposing is this; we have done it both ways. Have any of you? Comments before were made about having to go behind and “clean up” after us, but this is merely hearsay. Until one uses trial and error with BOTH programs, a true educational comparative analysis can not be given in regards to the way we operate.”
I guess it is hearsay from me. I know what clients have told me “they followed your plan for a year or so”. Then after a year of not my plan but the plan recommend by most fish professionals in the business it is working, so is this doing it both ways? You make claims “We use calcium and bufferin for hardness and alkalinity levels, and measure these by gpg. No we do not have to continuously add these two products, as they have a Potential life span of ag lime, but with more benefits. “

ANY PROOF! So they last up to 6 years when compared to 4 tons ag lime/acre. Impressive I guess I will be like the rest and just read it in the catalog and believe it sign me up for it, you depend on the uneducated for this sale. Here is some more hearsay, I went to a client that had as recently as 3 months prior to calling me had used your water quality program. Water quality in regards to hardness and alkalinity was poor. He was floored and had spend $5,800 on his 8 acre lake in the last two years (for 2 years that sounds like pond management but you do not do that, hmm) He said he kept sending in water samples and it would be ok then next time require more additions. Sorry say what you want I could not sleep at night doing this. I could make all this up but hope the folks who follow this know I would not. Believe or not everyone he showed me the invoices. Deb if you can believe me on this one, can you understand my frustration when I see this?

”As Ken stated to me this morning, “I spent a lot of years doing it wrong, and am comfortable that I am on the right track now. But mind you I am still learning”. I think this last statement can apply to all of us. The minute we close our minds to the potential changes that can be implemented in this field, is the minute we become self indulgent “omnipotent” lecturers who have a long term benefit for no one.”

I could not agree more with Ken here. I learn everyday it seems but have to have some scientifically based reason behind things I do. In fact I have learned a few things on this board. I hope I do not appear “all knowing”. Nothing is farther from the truth. However I’m confident I do know a lot about fish stocking and pond management in the southeast and do what I feel is right for making a living and can sleep at night doing it.


Greg Grimes
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#58891 10/05/05 03:50 PM
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Hmmm, alrighty then!

Pictures of GG's should be ready in the AM, so I hope to have them up by 10:00 AM Eastern Time. Everyone have a good evening and sleep well (I will ;\) )

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


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