Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,899
Posts557,051
Members18,451
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,407
ewest 21,474
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,110
Who's Online Now
2 members (Rainman, Bobbss), 458 guests, and 152 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
#58817 09/28/05 01:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 320
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 320
Deb,
Those stocking rates seem insane to me. With 600 CC and 600 LMB it is no wonder the GG's grow so fast. They have NO competition from their offspring ( all would be eaten ). You could stock standard BG with a predator base that high and get just as good growth rates.
Do you tell your customers they need the pond dye? Is the dye to cover up the fact that 600 CC per acre turned their ponds into a turbulent mess?
Need your stocking rates/reasonings explained more in-depth. I was intrigued by the GG's until I started reading last post on stocking. I may be wrong, but it appears to me that you're just another hatchery feeding off the uninformed.


I'll start treating my wife as good as my dog when she starts retrieving ducks.
http://geocities.com/h20fwlkillr/
#58818 09/28/05 05:46 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,892
D
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,892
Those stocking rates sound like a coming disaster to me. During a drought it is easy to lose 1/3 of the pond size. The biomass, even with aeration, would be a real problem.

Using those stocking rates, the starting ratio of predator to prey is 6.66 to one. Moreover, what will the fry eat? With the pond dye, phyto and zoo plankton won't make it. One feeder per acre with no plankton? Doesn't sound right.

If I stock 1,000 bluegill in the spring, they become 3,000 or more by fall. Then, predators are absolutely necessary. But not at those rates.

Maybe a professional fish farmer could make it work but I don't believe the average guy could. I'll do it the old fashioned, tried and true, holistic, way and try for a balanced pond.

#58819 09/28/05 07:05 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 627
B
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 627
It is alot of fish but if you assume 25% mortality/fishing after the first year and GG and cats at 1.5 Lbs and Bass at 1 lbs the biomass is 4500 per acre which although is much higher than anything we consider here, it is consistent with what is recommended in their catalog(at the high end) for a fed and aerated pond.
Remember everyone we are discussing maximum stocking rates, I stocked 2500 GG in a 3.5 acre pond and did not get a sales job by Ken to stock more.Ken knew I could not aerate(no power) and I would sometimes go a couple weeks not going to the farm and so maximum stocking was never even discussed.

#58820 09/28/05 07:28 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,685
Likes: 281
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,685
Likes: 281
No offense to anyone, but now I know how Jesus walked on water..........

He had Holyoke stock his pond.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#58821 09/28/05 08:23 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 823
M
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
M
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 823
That study was actually published (North American Journal of Aquaculture 66:312-318) just gotta find it somewhere.

Found it... The Study

Well, dangit...jumped the gun. Gotta buy it. The link is just the abstract...anyone a member of the American Fisheries Society???


In a lifetime, the average driver will honk 15,250 times. My wife figures I'm due to die any day now...



#58822 09/28/05 08:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,365
B
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,365
 Quote:
Originally posted by Georgia Giant Man:
5000 gambusia minnows
Ken,

Why gambusia minnows? I have heard they are bad about egg predation.

#58823 09/28/05 09:29 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 556
D
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 556
Ok slow down boys!
Bill- that is based on a 1 acre WELL maintained pond, and congrats on the g-baby. Is this the first? My son is an only g-baby and is rotten to the core. But that is ok. Mom said if she could have been a grandparent before a parent she would have opted that way. You can give in to everything, and then give them back at the end of the day.

Ross- LM Bass and cats are stocked on a 1 to 5 ratio with the bream due to the reproduction rate on the giants (bedding on full moons during the summer [in South Georgia that is beginning to be year round I think, just kidding!]) As I have stated before you only want original giants plus one to two generations to survive.

Big_pond- Believe it! We are here (we were actually invited). I’ll email O’Neal and see if he wants to come on board. We recommend the dye to color the water darker (18 inches down).

Rad- I’m sorry to have to ask, but what do you mean by jc (it’s too early in the morning)? Ken does offer classes ranging from tank culture through frog farming.

Alabama- I hate to sound vague because you are truly looking for an answer, but it varies from pond to pond. I believe Greg agrees with this statement. If everyone will ponder the predator stock rate again, you will realize that it is not necessary to “remove” a certain percentage every year. That’s what predators are for. The goal is to grow the F-1 GGs as large as you can by allowing the predators to consume offspring.

Aaron- Those were most likely offspring because we did not have a dealer set up in that area until about a month ago (and he is in Muncie). We did stock a heck of a lot of ponds up there, and even sold to a Fish Farm in Dale. Who was the dealer? Cassidy? I can’t say for sure what someone else sold you because I was not there, but if you can tell me who it was I will be able to pull his/her invoices and give you a pretty good idea of what you have. Good job on your pond and happy fishing. Please let us know if we can help any other way, or I can recommend you to our new dealer in Muncie. Also you are correct about the cats causing a potential hazard, but down here in the south that is what a lot of people want. Cats can muddy the water, deplete O2, and grow to enormous sizes (68 lb cat caught in our 30 acre pond last fall). I could pull 100 invoices on 1 acre stocks and maybe 8-10 will be identical. Customers do research, read forums, talk to neighbors, listen to suggestions, then stock their ponds. Here in south Georgia (and maybe elsewhere) catfish houses are very popular. You know the routine; take the wife out on a Friday night… Therefore we have a lot of cage raising in this area also. Keep in mind that these are numbers that have worked for us and customers WHO HAVE FOLLOWED THE PROGRAM AND MAINTAINED THEIR POND!!! For the guys and gals who go out to their pond just on the weekends to catch some “time away”, those stocking numbers mentioned above need to be well adjusted. It is a case-by-case situation. PS- don’t forget Ken has been doing this for 40 plus years. We have had success and we have had failure (learning daily), but we are still around. As for the person who posted earlier about our having a bad reputation in Georgia, I am looking at a large map on the wall behind me that has red push pens stuck in each town we have a current delivery order for. There are 27 pins there now (Georgia), with a total of 142 pins throughout the Eastern US. We have happy customers and sad one’s, just like ANY business.

H20fwkillr- email me and I will send you a complete catalog. I am not quite sure exactly what else you are asking. You mentioned something about us “feeding off the uniformed.” I do not agree, in fact we joined this forum for more reasons than to promote/defend our fish. We also joined to offer help, and most importantly to learn from others in this field. I have read several threads, and I do not get the impression that the gentlemen here are uninformed. Quite the opposite I think they are intelligent and well informed (and I am excited about absorbing some of their knowledge). You also mentioned something about the growth rate being just as good on a standard bluegill as a GG. Let me ask you a question; If you were presented with only two women (provided you were a single man) one of whom you had to marry, how would you choose?
Here would be their qualifications:
*First woman- Her mother and father were brother and sister to one another (making them her aunt and uncle also), and her grandparents were first cousins to one another. In fact her family tree pretty much is a straight line.
*Second woman- Raised in a middle-to-upper class family, this lady has an above average IQ, carries herself well, aggressively goes after what she wants, and she has no apparent inbreeding in her family.
This will pretty much sum up the difference between the standard bluegill and the GG. Standard bluegill were here when the Mayflower arrived, with no new bloodline introduced. GG on the other hand are bred true every year.

Dave- Bill answered part of your post, but as far as the pond dye goes let me explain. First of all let me start by stating that I only have taken a few courses in botany (major was biology at GSU [class ‘94]), but I have read several articles lately about the positive and negative effects of phyto and zoo plankton in ponds (including Euglena that mimic red-tide). It appears that the most beneficial plankton live in the top foot or so of water. They are extremely important in ecological balance for both a food and oxygen supply for the pond. During the day as photosynthesis occurs, the plankton will convert carbon dioxide to oxygen. When you run into problems is when the plankton gets so dense in the water that it actually lowers O2 in the water at night (when photosynthesis can not occur). We suggest dying the water below 18 inches to prevent a dense growth of any type (weed, algae, or protozoa). One feeder to the acre pond with the above stated “surface” plankton will suffice, but herein again the customer is the one to make the final call (Lord I sound like a recording on that one).

Sunil- Cute, very Cute! I thought that happened due to an excess of algae growth on the top of the water. Your theory may be better though!

How come no one asked about the Bug-O-Matic?

Thanks for the questions (and the carpal tunnel in my right wrist),

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58824 09/28/05 09:43 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,075
M
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
M
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,075
Deb,

If not too much trouble, I'd be interested in reading those articles " several articles lately about the positive and negative effects of phyto and zoo plankton in ponds (including Euglena that mimic red-tide)"

Maybe you could post a reference for those of us interested in reading that material. Thank you.

#58825 09/28/05 09:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 556
D
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 556
Sorry bobad, left you out while I was typing my thesis before (ha-ha). There are two strains of the gambusia, and much controversy surrounding what you mentioned. I believe it started with a rumor of them eating the eyes out of fish in the Amazon or somewhere, and then the Urban Legend grew from there. We have had no problem with them in our ponds or those of our customers. In my opinion, the mosquito larvae eating factor far outweighs eggs being eaten (if they actually do that). I know this was a project for a guy awhile back who was completing his doctrate. He was either with the University of Alabama or Auburn. Need to search the web to see if his findings have been reported.

Deb \:\)


Do fish actually kiss?


#58826 09/28/05 09:45 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,075
M
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
M
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,075
Deb,

I have them in all my ponds and they are no problem. I don't understand, however, why one would need to buy them as they appear naturally here in East Texas. You can't have a mud puddle without them in it....maybe that does not happen elsewhere.

#58827 09/28/05 10:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 556
D
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 556


Do fish actually kiss?


#58828 09/28/05 10:44 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,973
G
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
G
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,973
Deb, I was not going to post here but I started another thread under water chemistry if you can find the time to answer my question over there. I'm just looking this one over for now. Also thank you for your kind words on us having a baby. We tried IVF back in April had 9 embryos implanted 3 and did not work. This month we thawed the 6 and 4 made it the the transfer so at least one has taken hold, thanks for your thoughts on that.


Greg Grimes
www.lakework.com
#58829 09/28/05 10:55 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,075
M
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
M
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,075
Deb,

Thanks. I'm coming at it more from the prevention aspect, as opposed to actual fish kill experience in my ponds.

I have observed for years the effects of red tide in our salt water fisheries here in Texas and have questioned biologists claims of oxygen depletion as the cause of red tide related fish kills....my theory, based on just common sense (dangerous I know), is that there is much more at work than DO levels....meaning toxic conditions produced by the organisms involved. Don't ever try to eat a salt water fish that has been feeding on certain reef organisms...its a mistake one only makes once.

If similar "red tides" ever get in our ponds in fresh water, its likely to be bad news in terms of fish kills, I'm afraid, in spite of all attempts at increasing DO levels...just thoughts of an idle mind. \:\)

#58830 09/28/05 12:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 627
B
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 627
Deb A pond in Georgia which is stocked to the max by Ken and well maintained, on average after how many years do you'll recommend pulling the plug and starting over.

Also alot of the Pond Bosses here care little about bream, they are looking to raise that 12 pound LMB. Would this goal change your stocking recommenations and is Kens the best hatchery for a monster bass pond.

#58831 09/28/05 03:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,025
Likes: 1
B
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,025
Likes: 1
Folks, now we know who is the real salesperson in the GG organization. The science has been done, now someone to convert that into productive consumer ponds.
Deb, is extremely intelligent, very articulate, and obviously sincere in her beliefs and explanations. No one has stumped her yet, even though some have tried. I, for one, am partial to bream, and only use LMB for predation, though, HSB will probably be my next predator of choice.
One question remains unanswered; what to expect in 4 to 5 yrs. in the pond, assuming some F-10s survive.(I know, we're probing).


#58832 09/28/05 04:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 556
D
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 556
Hey, probe away! I just wish I could be on the offensive at least once. Bill, I will get with Ken on the LMB question, but as for the other question I am assuming no predators, right? (By the way thanks for the comment, some say I'm cute too - really kidding on that one guys!) Anyway, you will end up with a bunch of small GG. They don't strangely turn into another fish, they are just stunted (like bluegill ;\) ) Did you read the post earlier on another thread about the report West VA did. It is not only about the GG, and it has alot of good reading.

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58833 09/28/05 04:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 627
B
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 627
Sorry Deb was not clear. If you follow Ken's plan completely(with bass) how many years before you'll recommend draining the pond and starting over. Your catalog discuss this but gives no detail.
Hope you don't feel like you are on the defensive this is just new and different stuff

#58834 09/28/05 11:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 136
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 136
Georgia Giant Man,

Thanks for the reply. I will have to search for the invoice, but I know the name of he farm is Tri-State fish farm.

Also, I would like the name of the fish farm in Muncie. That is about an hour south of me. I live near Ft.Wayne.


Just another 1 acre hole in the ground...........with fish !!!
#58835 09/29/05 12:38 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,345
Likes: 96
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Offline
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,345
Likes: 96
Okay all...it's time for me to chime in. I want everyone to keep in mind what Pond Boss has been preaching since its inception, and what I have been teaching and practicing for 26 years. First, greetings to Deb. But, we aware, this site is to dispense information, not to sell your wares. We pay for this site, and it's designed to benefit our subscribers, and those who post. So, when you start passing out catalogs and selling your wares, please understand our philosophies.
First, when you give out advice that doesn't jibe with what these guys know, they will blast off. The stocking rates mentioned in the thread are way out of line with what we recommend. While some of them 'do no harm, others do. We don't condone, or recommend, a wholesale stocking such as what you recommend. Our concept, which works quite well, is to give the best advice, based on the goals of that particular landowner and the resources he has to manage, such as pond geography, budget, timeline, etc. These guys and gals who post this site are educated people and won't buy into the big numbers you guys recommend. We understand most ponds, with a moderate degree of management, grow 60-80 pounds of largemouth bass per surface acre, and will support as much as 300-500 pounds of forage fish per acre at any given time. With respect, these guys know if they stock 600 largemouth bass per acre, 550 will be eaten by faster growing brothers and sisters. Therefore, these folks understand they are buying way too many fish in the beginning. While it basically does no harm to the pond, it does great harm to one's back pocket, and sends the seller's credibility backward a notch or two. Don't misunderstand this, anyone. I am a capitalist, forging a living in the pond management and stocking business my entire adult life. I do believe in profit. But, I also believe it's incumbent on the pros to pass out the best advice and keep the client's desires first. That's Pond Boss' philosophy. So, let's give solid advice, based on the goals of the landowner, and keep the selling where it belongs. Everyone is welcome to give advice. Paying advertisers are welcome to sell..via an ad in the magazine.


Teach a man to grow fish...
He can teach to catch fish...
#58836 09/29/05 01:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 320
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 320
Deb,
When I made the comment " feeding off the uninformed " I was refering to someone who would be easily influenced into stocking fish and/or amounts they may not need or want by a business that they think is looking out for them, NOT the members of this forum.
As for the argument on genetics, think about this. Whether you believe in evolution or creation, everything would be "inbred". Either decendants of Adam and Eve, or evolved from the same single cell organism. So if you want to sway me on my opinion, come up with a different argument.
My statement on the growth rates on the BG went uncontested by you. You side stepped the question and went on to your analogy on genetics of BG vs. GG. Does this mean you agree with me on the growth rates and are afraid to admit so?


I'll start treating my wife as good as my dog when she starts retrieving ducks.
http://geocities.com/h20fwlkillr/
#58837 09/29/05 05:18 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 627
B
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 627
Bob, Ken and Deb were asked to join the forum and have not tried to sell anything, just have answered questions. I know this is your forum and you can do with it what you want but I want to hear different ideas and form my own opionion.

Do you still think Georgia Giants are the standard Hybrid cross?

#58838 09/29/05 08:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,025
Likes: 1
B
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,025
Likes: 1
H20, I think it is a foregone conclusion that certain hybrids of BG have better growth rates than pure strains, why else would they ever have evolved? Questioning stocking rates, etc. is one thing, but argueing against known facts is another. Why would anyone put hybrids in their pond unless there were benefits?


#58839 09/29/05 09:23 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,075
M
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
M
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,075
Bob,

I asked Ken and Deb to come to the Forum and explain their position. Greg Grimes has frequently publicly disparaged Ken's products and methods in no uncertain terms.

I wanted to hear the other side and I also thought in fairness someone whose livelihood is being questioned, whose integrity is being put down in a public forum by a competitor, should have a chance to defend themselves against their accuser. The readers of this Forum are very capable of making up their own minds.

Greg Grimes said they would never come on here and defend themselves. He was wrong. It is to their credit that they have taken the time to answer all the questions thrown at them. We may not agree with all their answers or any of their answers, but what is wrong with hearing them? What is wrong with hearing someone's views that may not be your own?

Deb has said more than once and in a very professional manner that she will be glad for the chance to help someone rather than defend against Greg's "aggressive questions".

Blame me for inviting them...but don't blame them for trying to defend themselves, their business, and their integrity. For them to do otherwise would indeed be very telling.

#58840 09/29/05 10:24 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 113
L
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
L
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 113
In most fields, a seller's recommendations can be anywhere from ultra-conservative to ultra-liberal without it really being an issue of ethics. It would be nice, however, if the buyer would get a second and third opinion before pulling the trigger, or have access to a great forum like Pond Boss so they can see what another vendor might think. The only unethical practice I could imagine in this case would be if the seller implies that their's is the only reasonable course of action.

#58841 09/29/05 10:28 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,973
G
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
G
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,973
ML, where do you see my continued attacks??? I do not apprecaitae you saying that. In fact have only asked questions trying to get insight into recomendations since they appeared here. I will never get you to understand my stance so will give up trying. I'm just glad you are in the miniority on that stance.


Greg Grimes
www.lakework.com
Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Bob Lusk, GaryK, GrizzFan, PhotographerDave
Recent Posts
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by Rainman - 03/28/24 02:53 AM
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by Mark Dyer - 03/27/24 10:18 PM
Reducing fish biomass
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:17 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:05 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:02 PM
Questions and Feedback on SMB
by Donatello - 03/27/24 03:10 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by Bill Cody - 03/27/24 10:18 AM
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by esshup - 03/27/24 08:47 AM
2024 North Texas Optimal BG food Group Buy
by Dave Davidson1 - 03/27/24 08:15 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by esshup - 03/26/24 10:00 PM
Freeze Danger? - Electric Diaphragm Pump
by esshup - 03/26/24 09:47 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5