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#58792 09/21/05 01:19 PM
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Hello all! I am working on some exerpts from our catalog, customers, and an actual case study done just last year by the West Virginia Department of Biology, West Virginia State College Institute in West Virginia on the Georgia Giant. Hopefully, time willing, I will get some info out there on the Giants that you might not be familiar with. Presently we have them growing in every state but Alaska and Hawaii, so nobody should hesitate to ask for a catalog if you want one. Ken is not the most computer savvy person around, so I will be the "presence" on the site. Ken's desk is beside me, and all questions will be diverted to him. Together we will attempt to help in anyway possible.
This is a REALLY neat forum. I want to take a moment to thank all of you for including us. I never knew you were here, but I have already learned alot by just reading past posts.

Thanks again,

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58793 09/21/05 01:25 PM
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Hey Deb I will start off, every time Georgia giants come up on the board the debate is whether they are the standard hybrid mix of bluegill/green sunfish. Is this correct or not?

#58794 09/21/05 01:53 PM
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Not by a long shot. Ken spent 10 years going through trial and error with several different combinations in several different experimental ponds. In fact, if I am not mistaken he tripped up on the Georgia Giant right before Mrs. Judye kicked him out of the house for having spent all the money on research. If the Georgia Giant were indeed the same standard hybrid then there would be no need for discussion. As of yet I do not have the exact "recipe" for this fish, but hopefully one day I will earn that right. Ken and Jason keep pretty tight lipped on this one, but it involves several different fish. Sometimes I have wondered if he put piranha in there due to the aggressiveness. O'Neal Williams (O'Neal outdoors) filmed a show at one of our customer's ponds last Spring in Tifton, and had the Giants hitting every other hook. These were 1 1/2 pounders that were right at a year old.
But back to your question, nope! They are not the standard hybrid, they do reproduce, they will eventually crossbreed should you have other bluegill in the pond,they do degenerate over a 10 generation period (that is why predators need to be introduced within a 6 month to one year time) and they don't strangely turn into little green sunfish. Good fiction novel in the works for that one though, "Attack of the Giant Georgia Green Sunfish" :p .
Thanks for getting me starting on a soap box (and to think, you only asked one question)!!!

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58795 09/21/05 02:03 PM
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Deb,

Do you have, or would you be willing to post a clear, side view photograph of an adult Georgia Giant of at least 400 grams? If you don't have the ability to make this sort of post would you be willing to email me a photo of one?

Bruce Condello

P.S. I would prefer that it weren't the photo of "Bubba" the five pounder. I've shown that picture to every fisheries biologist I've ever known. Opinions have already been formulated on that fish. ;\)


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
#58796 09/21/05 02:30 PM
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Opinions are formulated on anything that appears to be a freak of nature. "Bubba" as you called him was an old fish. I have a few pictures in my Kodak program, but I cannot get them to paste. Since you are familiar with this setup, can I email them to you and then have you post them?

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58797 09/21/05 02:31 PM
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Bruce, I will take some pictures at the farm this weekend and put them on CD and try to get someone help me post them, if Ken does not

#58798 09/21/05 02:51 PM
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Thanks for doing that, Deb.

bmcondello@bizfunctional.com

Thanks as well to you, Bill. Quite honestly, if I were to ever include this fish in my repertoir, I'd need a good picture of the fish.


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
#58799 09/21/05 04:41 PM
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Deb, Do first year spawns of the georgia giants have the same growth pontential as the original stockers?

#58800 09/21/05 06:36 PM
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This thread should get very interesting. If these fish revert in 10 generations, what fish should I expect to see in my pond over time ?

#58801 09/21/05 08:21 PM
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Deb, One more question,how many years is 10 generations removed from the originals(are you talking 100 years).Just kidding,I guessed its based on your growing season in Georgia.But really how long did it take to confirm 10 generations?

#58802 09/22/05 10:47 AM
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Hey! Good questions! As you can probably tell by now, I tend to ramble on so I won't start answering right away. I am already almost late in picking my son up to go to the beach for the weekend (a wedding ), but I will be glad to pick up this topic in depth Monday AM (or Sunday PM if I get back early enough).
Thanks again to all of you for welcoming us! I am excited about what all I can learn. Talk to you all after the weekend.

Deb

P.S. To any of you in the Tx and La area I wish you Godspeed with this storm. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your families.


Do fish actually kiss?


#58803 09/22/05 11:26 AM
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Debra I will toss you a couple of questions which will come up sooner or later. Your stocking rates, according to your catalog(mines probably two years old)you recommend up to 3000(does it now say 5000) Georgia Giants per acre in a fed pond. This is about 4 to 6 times what most of the pros here recommend. Why the huge difference in stocking rates? It has also been suggested that your high stocking rates are just so you can sell more fish. Have you ever sold 10,000 per acre?

Also in Kens first post he said something about sterile smallmouth bass, tell us more, Are you'll selling these.

#58804 09/22/05 07:48 PM
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Deb - I have another question to add to your list. Do you people have any accurate data (no guessing or estimates) as to the percentage of males vs females that occurs in a typical hatch (F1 fish) from your bream cross?. Has the ratio of males to females ever been validated and if so by who. Plus Do you have any photos of F1 males and F1 females?.

The number of questions for you and your "group" could build up to an sizable number by the time you return after the weekend. Since you are probably busy each day with your normal tasks, I recommend that you try and answer one each day or two.


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#58805 09/27/05 03:38 PM
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Hey guys! Lots of questions out there, but that is a good thing. I will try to start at the beginning.
1. Do first year spawns have the same growth potential as the original stockers? No, with each generation they decrease in growth potential
2. Billy Watson asked “How many years is 10 generations removed from the originals (are you talking 100 years)?” Now come on Billy, if it took 100 years to go through 10 generations, wouldn’t that mean that the fish were only bedding every 10 years. Sorry sweetheart, but I have yet to meet a male of any species that would bed only once in a ten year period \:D . Actually if stocked in the early spring, you might get F-3’s out of the batch before late fall. It all depends on water quality, feed, length of growing season … We have actually had a 3-4” GG with eggs. No joking there! They are amazing little creatures, but that is why it is SO important to introduce predators within a year. If that rule is not followed then you will end up with a pond full of stunted bream (we have all been there).
3. Eastland asked “what fish should I expect to see in my pond over time”. If the stocking program is followed properly, you should never have anything above an F-3 or possible F-4. Bass and crappie (and large cats) are structurally important for a balanced pond. But even if you went all the way to F-10, you will still have a GG, just a stunted one.
4. Bill Duggan asked about large stocking rates. First of all understand that about ½ of our ponds are experimental ponds (we learn day-to-day). We have found however that the Georgia Giants are more aggressive, therefore feeding heavier, when stocked in larger quantities. Our program generally follows this rule:
a) no feed or aeration in pond = do not go over 1000 bream to acre
b) either feed or aeration = do not go over 3000 bream to acre
c) both feed and aeration = up to 5000 to the acre (old numbers)
Herein you must keep in mind that the above stated only works with a well maintained pond. Water quality must be good (and can always be improved), predators must be introduced in a timely manner, and a high protein feed must be used. Now I am sure that half of you need a moment to pick yourselves up off of the floor due to these high numbers, so I will give you a chance to get up. Guys, these numbers have worked for us. Ultimately it is the customer’s responsibility; we are only here for guidance (as are you all). Anyone looking to spend thousands of dollars on their pond/lake would be either very rich or a little crazy (or both) not to do research first. We all have different success and failure stories, but we are here to learn from one another. And the fact that we are all still asking questions usually means we have done enough right to still keep us excited.
As for the 10,000 to the acre I am not familiar with this high of a stocking rate. A customer might have requested this if they were to have a fish-out pond, or were cage raising for wholesale, but again I am unaware of this. Does not mean it did not happen I just have not heard of such.
Bill also asked about sterile smallmouth bass. These are also known as hybrid stripe smallmouth bass and are personally my favorite predator. Reaching a maximum size of about 9 lbs, these little buggers will fight hook and line to the death (not literally). The major benefit of these fish over the largemouth is in the size of the mouth. Once a largemouth gets 2 lbs and larger, they have the potential to eat everything they can fit into their mouth (including the original F-1 Giants). These fish adapt well in water qualities over 51 (hardness and alkalinity), and we generally introduce them into a pond with a bag of sea salt. Just makes the transition easier for them.
5. Bill Cody inquired about sex (that did not come out right)! He inquired about
accurate data as to the percentage of males v/s females. This has never been validated by anyone outside of the hatchery (still varies with batch to batch), but that is a good idea. West Virginia Department of Biology, West Virginia State College Institute in West Virginia did a study on these fish that showed a growth rate 4 times that of the standard bluegill. They came down and purchased the 1-2” Georgia Giants (posing as regular customers) without our knowing of their research project. Then they returned several months later with a huge booklet stating the data they had come up with. WOW! We didn’t even know some of the things they came up with. The study was titled “Diet and Strain Affect Growth, Feed Efficiency, and Retention of Nitrogen and Lysine in Hybrid Bluegill.” It showed, among other things that over a twelve week period the GG had an overall growth rate of four times faster than other hybrid bream, that GG had a higher feed intake than other hybrid bream, and that the GG were more efficient feed consumers than other hybrid bream. This should be a published work that anyone can gain access to via the web.

I hope I did not miss any questions, and I apologize for being a day late in my response time.

Thanks,
Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58806 09/27/05 06:13 PM
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Thanks Deb, that should get it going. I stocked your hybrid stripers just never heard it called Smallmouths. Please anyone see if we can get a link to the West Virginia report.
OK Deb, did you just say the more you stock per acre the faster they grow?

#58807 09/27/05 06:31 PM
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Deb, please verify the name of the college, nothing is showing up on a web search

#58808 09/27/05 08:14 PM
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Hey Bill,
I am at home right now (just got the baby to bed), but will pull the report tommorrow. [Sidekick about babies: isn't the news about Greg great. Boy his life will be forever changed] Back to the report, it was about 50-75 pages (or more) if I remember correctly, so I can't paste it to this site, but I will check things out for you all and try to find a link. Yes, the heavier stocked, the more aggressive they are. But like anything else you can overdo it! On an average 1 acre stock we set it up as follows:
3000 GG
600 channel cats
5000 gambusia minnows
600 large mouth OR 600-1000 smallmouth (6 months to 1 year later)
1 Aqaurius aerator
1 Bug-O-Matic Feeder
1 Automatic feeder (38% protein/22%fish meal pellets)
1 quart ocean blue pond dye (per acre 4 foot deep)

Then we monitor every 6 months with free water tests. We test for pH, ammonia, hardness, and alkalinity. If a customer is having a problem we will test more frequently. When this program has been followed correctly we have had no problems. It is when a customer strays from the original program (no predators, no dye, no testing...) that problems arise. Usually these are the customers that someone has had to "go back on". Not that we do not take responsibility, but you yourself are a testimony to a good program, right? I personally NEVER suggest higher than 3000 to the acre, but some people cage raise for commercial reasons and need more fish. In that case aeration and feed need to be kicked up a notch with the increase in fish stocked. I heard from a customer out of Illinois just this past spring that is catching 4 1/2 lb GG out of a pond he stocked (properly) just four years ago. I will also try to find his name and number and try to get him to post on this thread.
Have a good evening!

Deb


Do fish actually kiss?


#58809 09/27/05 08:35 PM
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Wow, whats the smallest size pond you would do this stocking in?
E-mailed Greg tonight, told him I am ahead of him, Grandbaby last month

#58810 09/27/05 09:00 PM
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600 largemouth bass per acre?


It ain't much of story if you don't have pictures!
#58811 09/27/05 09:13 PM
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I can't BELEIVE I am seeing Ken Holyoke on this thang..... \:D .....next we will be seeing Owen and Williams... \:D

#58812 09/27/05 09:38 PM
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http://fozzy.wvstateu.edu
? a small jc with an aquaculture class offering.


1/4 & 3/4 acre ponds. A thousand miles from no where and there is no place I want to be...
Dwight Yoakam
#58813 09/27/05 10:01 PM
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Your plan for succes sure is different from everyone else accross the country \:\( ...

3000 GG
600 channel cats
5000 gambusia minnows
600 large mouth OR 600-1000 smallmouth (6 months to 1 year later)
1 Aqaurius aerator
1 Bug-O-Matic Feeder
1 Automatic feeder (38% protein/22%fish meal pellets)
1 quart ocean blue pond dye (per acre 4 foot deep)

This seems Quit heavy to me!!
What is the Blue dye for???

#58814 09/27/05 10:33 PM
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With stocking rates that high.........what do you reccomend as far as numbers of fish to remove per year? That is a staggering amount of fish for an acre?


If wishes were horses, dreamers would ride.

I must admit that I am not a fan of the Catfish \:\)
#58815 09/27/05 11:18 PM
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Georgia Giant Man,

I stocked 300 georgia giant blue gills this past spring from a fish farm in southern Indiana. How do I know I am getting a true georia giant? When I have time I will go down and catch one to post pictures of.

The georgia giants I stocked were around 3" in April. They are now close to three times that size if not more in body weight. The fish are 6 - 7" now and are very aggressive. I caught one the other day on a 4" rapala!

It is great to see a post on the georgia giants. Thanks


Just another 1 acre hole in the ground...........with fish !!!
#58816 09/27/05 11:40 PM
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One more question. Why so many CC? I have seen disaster come from overstocking CC. I am assumming alot of heavy cover is part of your management plan. I am just weary about overstocking predator fish.

Thanks in advance for any additional information. \:\)


Just another 1 acre hole in the ground...........with fish !!!
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