Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations more bream id help

A friend and I are at odds over what kinds of bream these are. Could you experts please help us out? [IMG]

Good enough pictures. Both fish have primarily the external features of true or pure strain bluegills. There could possibly be some copper nose bluegill genetics in them but I'm not real familiar with copper nose bluegill so I can't say for sure. They look like the pure bluegill I am most familiar with. The reason they look slightly different is due to the age of the fish. The fish in the upper picture is older, longer and shows definite signs of mature male whereas the fish in the lower picture is younger and is just starting to show signs of mature male. Neither fish show any signs of hybrid bluegill or other species of sunfish.

I'm with Cody. These are bluegill, but not coppernose strain.

Thanks for your help. One more question-is this a shellcracker? You can't see it in the picture but it did have a faded red/orange at the back of the ear. It was also a good size fish, a lot bigger than any bluegill caught. [IMG]

Looks like a female shellcracker.

We call them "chinquapin" here in Cajun country, and it's the only fish prized more than BG and sacalait.

I agree, Yes, it looks like a shellcracker.

bobad, good to see you call them chinquipin in LA too. I, and I'm sure Ewest' knew them as that too many yrs ago. Dont know about the bag of milk, though. Where did that come from? We used to call them 'white perch'.

BM :
I think that is a female stump knocker.
I have heard all of those names for RE and also called stump knocker. Sac-a-lait is french for sack of milk to describe the white flesh of white perch or crappie. See below.

http://www.thejump.net/fishlist/crappie.htm

The follwoing is an interesting site and quote on RE.

The scientific name for the red-ear is Lepomis microlophus. You might also recognize these other names: shellcracker (when eating snail, the shell is completely crushed and expelled from the mouth, hence the name, shellcracker), stump knocker (for its love of heavy brush and stumps), and red-ear perch. They also have a host of other names in the south - you just might have your own.

I remember the first time I ever became associated with the Strawberry bass, or more commonly known as the red-eared sunfish

http://www.kevinwrightoutdoors.com/articles/strawberry%20bass.htm

ewest

Boys, that ain't no redear/shellcracker/chinquapin perch....
It might be a hybrid between a bluegill and redear, but I would almost go to the bank thinking its a female bluegill.
Redear don't have vertical bars or blue fins. Most of all, they have no blue/black on their gill flap.
That creature is a bluegill....

That can't be a female bluegill. The ear tab is too round. A female bluegill ear tab is practically a slit...more semi-lunar.

An absolute identifier is if it has a black dot at the posterior base of the dorsal fin. This photo doesn't really show it. It's a bluegill. What makes me think it's a female is its general coloration. If it were a male, the vertical bars would be better defined, there would be some coloration around its stomach this time of year. But, for me, the final defining factor is that it's not a redear, not a pumpkinseed, not a longear, not an orange-spotted sunfish, etc....My eyes looked at it not only as what I think it is, but as what it's not.

This is great. We have more fun on the forum trying to ID sunfish mixes. It happens to be one thing I have a hard time with when they are all mixed up. My monitor does not show blue on fins only black. The post says red on flap there but not vis. on pic. No wonder we have problems with this--- look at the differences on the pics. of RE on the sites ref. below. So I included some copied text. I learn something new all the time--see text below about males making popping sounds when courting. That may be partial answer on questions about BG/RE crosses and bedding raised several mths. ago in posts by Greg , Bruce and others. ewest

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/efish/families/redearsun.html

Physical Description:
· Very deep, very compressed body
· Black opercular spot with a red mark on the edge
· Small, terminal mouth
· Large eye
· Tail fin lobes rounded
· Pectoral fin long and pointed
· Side of body silver to iridescent blue
· Yellow-orange belly
· Yellow or orange spots on side of body

http://www.thejump.net/fishlist/redear.htm

Key Notes and Tips:
*Males usually emit a "popping" sound when courting females.
*Females have an average of about 20,000 eggs
*The redear does not reproduce as quickly bluegills and, therefore, is not likely to overpopulate small ponds. Overpopulation causes the fish to grow very slowly

Redear (Lepomis microlophus) a member of the sunfish family are also known as shellcracker, stumpknocker,

http://www.millevolte.com/nativefish21.html

The fish is a deep, slab-sided sunfish with a small mouth quite similar in appearance to bluegill and pumpkinseed. The upper jaw does not reach past the front of the eye when the mouth is closed. The dorsal fin has 10 spines and is connected to the soft dorsal fin without the presence of a notch. The pectoral fins are pointed and long. The earflap is rounded and has a thin and flexible margin. The dorsal fin is without spots, and the sides of the head do not have bluish lines as in pumpkinseed. The back and sides are golden or light olive green, usually marked by several dark vertical bars. But these disappear in large fish. The ear flap has a whitish border and has a prominent red or orange spot in adults, hence the name redear. The fins are greenish without spots.

http://fn.cfs.purdue.edu/anglingindiana/fishesofindiana/Sunfish/Redear.htm

http://www.mdc.state.mo.us/fish/ponds/intro/3.htm#Redear%20Sunfish

I'll buy into the "Nots", but as far as positive ID on female bluegill I'd bet my license it's not a purebred BG.(My aquaculture license, not my DDS) :p My picture above shows a more typical ear tab configuration.

Look closely at the dimensions of the ear tab. Female bluegill always taller than wide.

Now look at the following link....

http://www.millevolte.com/nativefish21.html

Look at the vertical banding on this RES (albeit immature). The link provided by ewest shows distinct banding. I've got my money on at least 75 % genetic RES makeup.

I have one little advantage others don't. I get to see strains of bluegill coast to coast and north to south. Strains of bluegill in the southeast are totally different morphologically than those in the north. They have bright copper-colored fins, for crying out loud. Bluegill in the Mississippi drainage are a completely different strain, with different looks than those in Texas. Bluegill in clear water are colored differently than those in muddy water. Some females show distinct, textbook lack of color. Some dominant males show deeper colors than others. Some have different behavior patterns than others. Some "dominant" females have stronger female color patterns than others. Some have bigger ovaries than others.
If this fish is not a bluegill, it definitely has bluegill genetics. It may have some redear in it, but not much.
This business of pond management and this forum is probably one of the most fun things around. Here we are, educated people, debating a single fish flopping in the bed of someone's pickup. I love it.

Quote from Turkeyfootnc: "You can't see it in the picture but it did have a faded red/orange at the back of the ear."

I think this would rule out purebred BG. Hehehehehehehehe!!!!! (evil laugh)

Bob :

I note with interest that the Miss. drainage sunfish may be a little different. Bruce I tried to get several different pics. The one you picked up were from sites in FLA. and LA. same pic. I am in between these two and have seen all kinds of different sunfish and mixes and have never seen a fish that looks like the one they show. Some of the RE or RE/BG mixes I have posted about in our ponds which look like mostly RE have verticle pattern although it is broken but looks like one above but fins are not as dark. When I start seeing mixed up traits I now assume it is a mix or a juiv. that has not fully developed its traits. I have watched BG and RE in my aquarium change colors including their main background colors and patterns so much it is no suprise at how hard it is for me to id them from snap shot pic. This is great and I learn more every time we go through this process.Thank you Bob and Bruce and Bill for your efforts on these quizes . ewest

I was gonna stay out of this, but if we ALL put our $.02 in, we'll have enough for a cup of coffee.

I think it's a BG/RE hybrid, because 1) it does not have vertical bars, it has spots like a RE in vertical rows, and 2) that opercule. When I look at it (long enough...almost Twilight Zone-ish) I see a trace of red at the trailing edge - almost translucent.

Plus, visually it just smells like BG/RE cross pictures that were posted here by a pond owner (sorry, can't remember who) who places a few RE in BG pond (or vice versa) and gets crosses with know BG & RE parents (post was maybe a month ago? Damn good looking bream).

I have never seen Lusk so excited before this. Go Bob - Go Bruce. Lusk are you going to the bank with any money or just going to the bank?.

I will go along with RExBG cross. I agree with Bob that it does not look like the typical RE. I think the fish is a female. I have often seen body markings like those on some redear females. The background of the truck bed will influence the color of the membranous fins. Since Tfoot mentioned that the red gill flap margin had faded, which I have seen occur often, I assumed from experience that other color changes occurred to this fish during rough treatment and extrapolated into a redear female.

Why is all this important?

I would like to see the gill rakers on the first gill arch. That will give a good hint toward identity.

Can Tfoot catch some more of these and give us a picture of a couple fresher specimens on a different colored background?? Get some fresh ones with red still on ear flap.

Bank? How about shoreline? This is a great thread. None of us can prove a dang thang about this fish. Opinions are like.....oh heck, throw the fish back, let it grow. You guys should have seen the yellow colored crappie I found in New York this summer. Before I got a photo of it, one of the hired hands tossed it. It was the same color as a yellow perch, but it was a crappie.
How's that for a diversion?

Theo :

Are these the pics. of fish you were looking for as noted in your post above. I note the bars/rows on 2 of the pics. In looking back I found there must be 25 threads on BG/sunfish crosses. I need to go back and read them to get reinforcement that many of us have so much fun being unsure of how to answer " what is this?" when it comes to sunfish mixes. ewest

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001885

You found them, ewest! Those are the pics I was thinking of.

Now, where are my car keys?