Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Fl LMB

EWEST,

I got is e-mail address from TP&W and requested him to post here also...maybe one of us will get lucky.

guys. new pond ( 5 acres) stocked 5000 copper nose blue gill and 40 lbs fatheads ist of feburary and 400 lmb in middle june. one half (200) pure floridas and one half (200) F1. i am feeding the bluegill. to enhance the catchablility later, would it be a good idea now to add a few natives? (the bg and bass were small 1-3" when stocked) or is in kind of too late to do that? or should i wait till later? and if you think i should , how many? or since i did half and half do you think catchability be ok?

thanks,
darrell stringer

ML :

Talked to Gary Garrett today. Greg is right he is very nice and went over some of his work over the phone. He has been out of the office. I went over this discussion and ask him to look for your email , visit the forum and post on the topic as per your email. He indicated he would like to look at the forum and would add his comments. With that said I will wait a few days to see what happens . I would rather let him tell us what he thinks rather than me try to repeat what he told me. If no response occurs then I will try to get his message posted as per my memory. If you want to go over in mean time call or email me. ewest

DS :

What are your goals ? If you want better catch rates and it was my decision, which it is not ,I would add another 10 lbs fatheads another 1000 CNBG/RE ( 1-3 in) and 100 4-6 in.( same year class as LMB you put in recently) northern strain LMB. It is not to late to do this this fall. You can even do it later with larger nort. LMB, but now is ,in my opinion the better time to try to balance the % , before the first LMB spawn. But depending on your goals you may be in good shape as is.

ML :

Did you get a reply to you email. If not I will try to post what Gary Garrett told me tomorrow. Let me know if you got a reply. ewest

No, no reply received to my e-mail request.

Even though I do not like to try to speak for someone else I will try to set out a few of the points Dr. Gary Garrett of TPW made in a conversation regarding the topic of this thread.

I explained the points we were discussing as they related to the several papers and articles he has written on his research.

He has been very busy and may post later. I hope he does and corrects any error I may make in relating the conversation.ML sent him an email that we both hope he will answer and if so it will be posted. Thanks for the help on this matter.

Most of his points were included in the papers. Each point needs to be read and thought about and allowed to sink in before going to the next point. I read the articles several times and did not get the full effect of the points until I talked to him.

1. Fishing with resultant harvest creates selective pressure for wariness in fish.

2.Some fish are more prone to be caught and they are the ones removed by both fishermen keeping them or by natural mortality associated with catch and release fishing. Thus leaving a higher % of wary fish either by learning or genetics.

3.LMB are rapid learners particularly when negative stimuli such as artificial lures are involved.

4.There is a genetic link to angling vulnerability -- difference between Fla. strain and northern strain.

5. There is evidence this applies to other sunfish (BG, RE etc.) as per studies that show that hybrid sunfish are more aggressive and more vulnerable than either parent species.

6.Catchability (vulnerability) can be manipulated by selective breeding.

7. This manipulation runs on a sliding scale based on the amount of vulnerabile fish genes in the population. A pond with 80% northern LMB genes will have a higher catch rate than one with 40%.

8. Use the goals of the owner to set and then adjust the % Fla. or Northern or F1 genes to get the catch rate wanted. We used 87% northern genes and 13% Fla. genes +- in a TX Resv. because we wanted high catch rates for the public while still retaining a chance for a trophy. Much lower rates of northern genes ( 20%) will still have a measurable effect on catch rates but they will be much less than with 80%.

9.TPW used triploid Fla. LMB in several of its studies which are not available to the public. Several of the studies on these matters are still ongoing in TX lakes and more info will soon be available.

10. There is a range of vulnerability within each subspecies but there is a bigger difference between the 2 subspecies.

11. Remember that BOTH types of LMB learn quickly ( a major point)-- so that catch rates go down a lot over the first fishing days on each of our test ponds. This is like the " opening day effect" on new resv. high catch rates drop off quickly.

12. Vulnerable fish were caught multiple times during the survey while some fish were never caught.

That is enough for now. If I think of more points I will include them in a later post. ewest

EWEST,

THANKS FOR THE POST--GREAT INFO--FOOD FOR THOUGHT. YOU PUT A LOT OF EFFORT IMTO THIS FORUM AND I WANT YOU TO KNOW IT IS APPRECIATED.

TENTMAKER

Tentmaker :

Thanks. I will do what I can to help. It would be great to get Dr. Garrett to become active on the forum. He knows more about LMB genetics and traits than any one I know about. If a bunch of you Texicans (word borrowed from the JW movie The Alamo)would email him at TPW he might just chime in.

I thank you for your considerable efforts on the forum like on this topic. I reallly enjoy your common sense points on the most effective way to deal with problems.ewest

Right into my wheelhouse :

"Some fish are more prone to be caught and they are the ones removed by both fishermen keeping them or by natural mortality associated with catch and release fishing. Thus leaving a higher % of wary fish either by learning or genetics"

The aggressive fish being caught, with 100+ Relative Weights, should become the foundation of a pond. Do NOT put bass into your pond that fail to meet this criteria. Don't just crack open the wallet for pellet trained fish, Florida strain, or F1's. It's easy to tell a hybrid bass, just look for the camo pattern back. It's hard work fishing for the best, but somebody has to do it !

Better yet, go to the hatchery and buy your bass under the condition you keep the ones you catch & want

Fire away ... someone will claim those pellet trained bass are more aggressive

Eastland,

...yeah and someone will claim that larger bass are as easy to catch as small bass, again.

EWEST,

Thanks for posting this. I hope we can get Gary to become a regular on the Forum. His insights would be invaluable...and like Ken, the Georgia Giant, everyone has information that we can all use to develop our own positions.

The best thing I've read today, in a day otherwise filled with unbelievable events, were the statements by Todd and Theo...let the buyer beware. The way I like to say it is that we all need to be smart buyers. We all need to make up our own minds on what works best for us in our situations.

Eastland :

Let me know what I am missing about your post.
A couple of general points to readers so my prior post may make sense ( not directed to your post) :

1. If you are not happy with your LMB catch rate do not add LMB to your pond until you know your population dynamics. Number and type.

2. If it shows you have plenty of LMB and have a cathcability problem you have to either remove LMB or increase forage base or both to accomedate more LMB if you choose to address the problem through genetics as discussed below.

3. All LMB/BG ponds require proper LMB harvest or over time you will probably get bass crowded.

4. Common LMB fishing (all subspecies} results in the most vulnerable LMB being reduced either through harvest or nat. death or learning. The smaller the pond the more the catch rate is effected by fishing.

5.The only way to avoid this through catch methods is to remove LMB with live prey or electro fishing so as to hopefully target the wary fish.

6. Other methods of dealing with the problem ,assuming you can do so with out causing a bass crowded situation , are through behavior modification -- selective breeding (see Garrett) or conditioning (competition)followed by removal of proper amount, as per Lusk comments at DFW. Second part usualy but not always requires use of pellet trained fish.

Sorry I went off on a tangent but I hope this helps. Comments are welcome and encouraged. If I am missing something let me know. I still have lots to learn about this topic. ewest

I found this post after going through the 'Tiger' bass thread. Very interesting. What kind of results did you get in this lake?