Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Quick Help--Stocking Now

I am planning on stocking some new ponds on my property and an existing watershed next week.
I am hoping to get some feedback regarding my exact stocking plans. Please respond soon as I am stocking next week and finalizing my order by Friday.

GOAL: Trophy Bass Fishing

Quick History:

Bought 280 Acres in East Central Oklahoma January 10th of 2005. Existing 12-14 Acre Watershed is on property. This watershed was silted in and a new spillway was built/raised 5 feet 9 years ago. The pond was restocked with 320 Hybrid Largemouth Bass, 320 Hybrid Bluegill, 200 Copper Nose Bream, 320 Black Crappie, 300 Channel Cat, 188 large Bluegill, 8,000 fathead minnows. Current depth ranges only from 7 feet to 2 feet and I plan on raising the spillway another 3 feet in the near future. I have not done an electrofishing survey and don't plan one. I have been evaluating the fishing since January with the following results:

>Each outing results in a catch of 2-5 fish, 3 fish average. Caught are largemouth bass in the 2-4 pound range. Catching very few less than 2lbs. and many 2 1/2-4 lbs. We have caught a couple of 4+-5 lb bass and one 7lb. Channel cat seem to be fairly plentiful but not really fishing much for them. When we have the catch has been mainly 2-6lbs. I believe the forage base is completly eaten out. Have fished for bluegill extensively and we have only caught one very small 1-2" bluegill and one nice one 5-6".
Crappie seem to be thin (good as far as I am concerned) only catching 3 small 4-6" fish. Have never seen a single small fish in the shallows.

Also for your information purposes the pond has good vegatation but as most watersheds in Oklahoma has a turbidity issue with fairly muddy water most of the time and visability is about 6-7". I am adding many brush piles and larger timber areas for fish cover as it is needed.
Water level is maintained well as this watershed drainage area is over nearly 1200 acres.

I have built 3 new ponds this year. A small one acre pond,(Plan is for kid bluegill pond) a little larger 2 Acre pond, and a nice 5 Acre Pond. The large one will not fill well until the one above it is full as it spills into the second pond. The first two ponds have begun to fill very well and will see solid improvement as the fall rains begin. Current water levels are holding well and the two smaller ponds each have about 1/2 acre coverage and depth of about 6-8 feet.

The Plan.....

I would like to restock the watershed and begin the initial stocking of the two new ponds with forage base. Below you will find my stocking plan and I would appreciate your comments and recommendations. I have included some additional questions I would like your input on as well. Pond Boss is AWESOME! I get the magazines and have many of the books etc. I really enjoy this forum and appreciate your comments.

Stocking Plan:

Watershed:

>120# Fathead Minnows
>3,000 Hybrid Bluegill
(1,000 1-3" , 1,000 3-4", 1,000 4-5")
>3,000 Coppernose Bluegill
(1,500 1-3", 1,500 3-4")
>2,400 Redear Bream
(1,200 1-3", 1,200 3-4")
1,200 Largemouth Bass (3-4")

Note: The fish supplier is out of 4-5" coppernose and larger than 3-4" bass.

Each of the Two Small New Ponds:
--Currently 1/2 Acre in water surface area.

>10# Fathead Minnows
>250 Hybrid Bluegill
(125 1-3", 125 3-4")
>250 Coppernose Bluegill
(125 1-3", 125 3-4")
>200 Redear Bream
(100 1-3", 100 3-4")

Questions:

What do you think?

I know I must be in some ways simply feeding my existing bass in the watershed, will survival rates be good enough if there is reasonable cover for the fish to hide?

Stocking Window for New ponds? I read alot about the value of stocking the forage base early and letting it develop but am unsure of how long that "ideal" window of time is. Do you gain alot of benefit making it a year rather than six months?

Is it smart to go ahead and begin the forage base stocking prior to complete pond fill?

If it is ok do I come back with more small forage fish at my second stocking or larger ones?

I have ordered water tests to verify ph and alkalinity prior to the stocking to be sure everything looks good....

Thanks for your help!!!!!!!!

As I read your post, I had several questions as follows:

1) What is your definition of "watershed"? It seems you use that term to describe your largest pond rather than the more typical use of the term as the acreage that drains into your ponds.

2) What is a "hybrid LMB"? Are you talking about F1's?

3) If your objective is "trophy" LMB, why stock hybrid BG or crappie, or channel cats?

4) Have you considered a system of genetics refreshing for the LMB?

5) What are the genetics you currently have, Florida, native, or crosses?

6) Have you considered shad?

Probably other questions as well, but a quick read resulted in the above.

Thanks for the questions, I will try and clarify...

I use the term watershed, probably incorrectly, as it is my largest pond on the property and built by the state soil conservation department for flood control. It was the primary pond receiving all of the watershed.

The hybrid LMB I refer to are F1's, florida Strain.

The original stocking 8 years ago was done by the previous land owner and the bass genetics were those of the F-1 variety. I don't know that much about bass genetics so I hope that answers your question.
Not sure I understand your genetics refreshing exactly. I know mixing natives, with floridas, or crosses can have some type of value but have not really studied that too much.

My objective is trohpy bass fishing. I do not intend to stock additional crappie or channel cats but those were already put in the lake by the previous owner. Actually we are taking out all crappie caught, have not been many but the few we have caught have come out.

I am just trying to restore the forage base and enhance the bass numbers to get on track with this existing lake. Everything I have read has had the focus of getting a healthy bluegill forage base in place and then possibly adding some shad to propel the bass to the trophy range.

I have not considered shad as I thought the first order of business would be to restore the forage base and improve bass numbers. I have read about the benefits of shad stocking when trying to get the bass to that trophy category.

I included Hybrid bluegill as I thought a mixture of all types of bluegill was of benefit in developing the forage base.

The current bass being caught in the flood control are very, very healthy.

There seems to be some crayfish and frogs in the current environment.

The Flood Control is kind of my problem fishery as the depth is not where I would like it to be and the water turbidity is not what I would like. Many have told me you can have a great fishing lake that is shallow and we are catching some nice bass, just few and far between.
I know enhancing this fishery is going to take some time but want to do the right things to get it on track. It has potential.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

Thanks,

There is a lot of Info here to digest.

First, do a search here and on the internet about Hybrid Bluegill and Green sunfish. Hybrid bluegill reproduce slowly and eventually revert back to the less than desirable green sunfish. Pure strain bluegills will provide a much better forage base (higher reproductive rate) and they can grow to very respectable sizes.

The fact that you are catching very few smaller LMB is somewhat odd. Crappie predation? LMB predation? hmmmmmm I don't think I would spend much money stocking small bass until you figure out what is offing the ones you have now. In fact, with the seemingly healthy population of large LMB you have, I would be hesitant to stock any smaller fish. LMB are extremely efficient predators. They will take a huge toll on your new stockers. Instead, I would probably spend the money on a survey. In the meantime, the relative weight of your LMB would be useful. This will help you evaluate whether or not your LMB have enough to eat. Do you keep a log of the weights and lengths of the fish you catch?

Good Luck

That is a topic worth reading up on. Florida bass have a reputation for being hard to catch. Some have even called them uncatchable. Many southerners are opting for the northern strain. There are numerous posts on the forum addressing this issue.

Okie,

At the risk of over simplifying an issue with this question...would you be better served to deal with the silting and turbidity issues before stocking the 12 acre pond again?

Gator

The HBG are really just a gimmick. You would be a little better off replacing them with the coppernose or redears.
1,200 LMB seems a little high. You already have an existing population. I wouldn't add more than 10-20 per acre. You have concerns about your forage base and adding more predators will only compound the problem until the BG and RES have a chance to get in a few spawns.

Leave out the HBG in all three ponds as mentioned above.

In addition to ML's possible use of Shad (I am assuming Gizzard Shad for the main pond, possibly Threadfin Shad in forage pond(s) but I bet OK is too cold for them. I doubt anyone would recommend Gizzard Shad in the forage ponds), you might also consider Golden Shiners in the main ponds and forage pond(s).

Something I will suggest for you and others to consider is stocking the two forage ponds differently. Does anyone think this would have any benefits in terms of avoiding forage species competition?

Okie,

I agree with others comments on HBG. They are a waste of your money, and in fact will hurt you in trying to meet your objectives...they do not reproduce as many offspring as CNBG and they reproduce something akin to a green sunfish.

The question on genetics is very relevant to you meeting your objectives...trophy bass. I'm going to assume that your location will indeed support Florida bass in that someone has already stocked F1's (not a true hybrid across species but a cross within species). If you are after the largest bass you can get, then Floridas should be your choice. Catching them is a different matter, but you said "trophy" bass, not catchable bass.

I brought up the question of shad from the viewpoint of forage. Threadfin shad, which will not survive at water temps below 43 or 42 degrees are great LMB forage. If you have larger LMB, then gizzard shad become a viable option for pushing your LMB even higher up the weight scale. If money is not an issue and your climate is ok, you could consider stocking rainbows in the 8 to 10 inch range if you really want to supercharge the LMB size. Another forage option is Tilapia depending on the legality in your area.

You seem to be very clear in your objectives. However, your situation, i.e. several ponds, affords you a unique opportunity to enjoy other aspects of ponds and fish than just "trophy" bass. Many folks start out wanting to raise "trophy" bass, but after time come to understand that it may not be much fun to raise LMB which have a very low probability of being caught. They also come to realize that species such as HSB may offer even better characteristics than LMB in a pond environment. If you are set on "trophy" then have at it and folks here will offer their best advice to help you achieve your objectives.

Okie,

Another couple of thoughts...

Stocking small BG in an existing healthy bass pond is providing mostly a treat, as opposed to an improvement to your forage base. You would be better served to buy larger BG ( 6,7 or even 8 inches) that have a reasonable chance of surviving LMB predation.

Also, you should expect very heavy predation on the fingerling bass, especially in view of your comments on the scarcity of BG.

You need to get rid of the cats, every last one of them. They simply detract from your goal of "trophy" bass. The crappie are problemmatic but it sounds as if you have them under control. However, as BG become more abundant watch out for crappie taking over. You will forever be required I believe to put heavy fishing pressure on the crappie, in order to achieve your objectives.

Thanks for your comments and I look forward to more thoughts the next day or two.

I will take everyone's good advice and shift away from the Hybrid Bluegill to only coppernose and redear in all ponds.

JayMan....I am not sure why I am not catching many smaller bass and we are not seeing many crappie being caught. I don't actually log the weights and lengths of the fish I catch but I can tell you they are perfect and healthy. I have not seen any that appear to be stunted or where there length seems anything but normal.

I just think the forage base is gone from the existing bass and they have likely been eating out the new hatch and smaller fish. Suprised though to not catch simply MORE bass.
A crane or two may be having some impact as well.

People keep saying florida's are hard to catch.
We seem to catch them just not the overall outing I am looking for. I want a trohpy bass fishing pond where it is not that uncommon to catch 8-15 bass from 2 to 8 lbs. on a regular basis when fishing is decent. I want larger bass than 8lbs. but lets get to there first.
Should I be stocking natives or some other type with Florida's??????

In response to the comment from Alligator...
I am trying to address these issues of turbidity and silt. Currently beavers have done a nice job of damning up (slowing down the water in some of the creek channels that feed this pond).
I am letting them do their thing. Also, we have built some ponds above which will help. I think if I can pull out some of the catfish and also get the depth improved by raising the spillway three feet this will all help.

Still...in the meantime...I want to improve the fishing....NOW!

Meadowlark.....

I am not sure how much I see the current pond as a existing healthy bass pond. Catching a few nice bass but not the numbers I would associate with HEALTHY.

My fish supplier only has CNBG in the 4-5" range and the Redear 3-4". I am committed to financially do what is needed but want to be effective. Paying this money to feed the fish is not my goal but I want to restore the forage base.

I will work on getting rid of the catfish....and crappie.

My fish supplier also only has bass in the 3-4" range right now, is that a waste of time. Should I just work on the forage now and add bass next spring? What size would work. I know there is no way to not have some of the fish added end up as just fish food but I need to get it going.

What did you think of the stocking numbers, mix for the new ponds if I change the HBG to CNBG and Redear????

Thanks to all for the thoughts...........

A good rule of thumb for stocking is 1000 BG per acre, 80% CNBG and 20% RES. That's in your new ponds.

In the existing "watershed", if it were me, I think I would concentrate on pond improvements first, as Gator suggested and getting rid of the cats and minimizing the crappie before anything else. Then I would try really hard to get some quality adult CNBG. Hey, if you are willing to drive to Texas you can have some of mine.

If nothing else, find someone with them in a pond and catch some and transplant...check for healthy fish and if need be offer to pay for them. CNBG are very prolific, and with large fish you will have many small ones next spring after warm up. Honestly, in that existing pond, I would not spend money on small BG or RES. It's just a waste.

Stock your forage fish this fall in your new ponds and add LMB in June or so.

I'm jumping around and sorry for that but just spitting out thoughts...what to do about adding small LMB to existing pond? I would not do it until you have accomplished the above...pond improvements, cat removal, crappie minimization, and adult BG stocking. The only way you will get any appreciable survival of fingerling LMB in that existing pond is if there is ample other forage to choose from.

Okie :

Good advice so far on the smaller new ponds. You have a good opportunity to start them off right and while the forage base grows think about what you want from these ponds both as to goals and fish types in addition to fatheads and BG.

Leave out the HBG and replace with regular BG . CNBG are good and I would use some of both. CNBG are a florida sub species of BG and they don't do as well as the water gets colder moving north. As cent. okla. gets colder than Tex. and southern states I would hedge my bets and use some of both BG but not HBG.

On the large existing pond I question if you have the data needed to make a decision. It is very strange to have a good pop. of healthy 2-4+ lb bass but no 6-12in. or yoy bass and very few BG. Generally you should have good bass recruitment {new yoy bass hatch} with a healthy bass crop as described unless you have a huge 3-6 in. BG crop eating them. If lots of 3-6 in. BG you should have many healthy 8-12 in, bass and you should be seeing and catching lots of BG this size. What you are describing is a lack of bass recrutiment for several years which is very unusal .This leads me to think that with very low visibility you don't have a good data set on the fish status in the pond. This can occur for several reasons including low vis. along with fishing for bass with large baits. In that situation you do not see the BG and don't catch them on large baits. Without good data you would be shooting in the dark with more stocking. I would wait on adding fish to this pond until I got better info from seining or more catch data or fish traps or visual inspection or electroshock survey. I would go out with worms and crickets to target 4-10 in BG and see the results.

Any time I see someone making a large order of fish of many sizes I ask if they are real sure about the source of the fish and the sellers reputation. Even though most hatcheries and sellers are ok there are some very bad apples out there who prey on the public. If you have more info on the existing ponds fish please post. It would be good for you to know what type of bass {Fla., northerns or F1 crosses} are in the pond before adding more. ewest

Okie,

"Still...in the meantime...I want to improve the fishing....NOW!"

I hear you. I am working through the some of the same decisions on my pond. Stock or wait. I have convinced myself to wait until I have made all the improvements to the water, drainage...etc., ensure everything is ready, then stock it. However it is EXTREMELY temping (for me) to go ahead with the stocking plan and take the risk that everything will work out.

From another perspective, IF I get the pond in good shape, the natural balance/reproduction will improve (hopefully) and may eliminate my stocking needs.

The best of luck to you, sounds like you have put a lot of thought and $ into your plans. There are some super smart folks on this board that can really help...

Okie, I gotta agree with Ewest. I'm not sure the results add up. You are making some pretty good size financial commitments. I believe I would consider having an electroshocking boat come in. The Pro's are able to give you a better assessment than you can do for yourself. It sounds like you may have a good fishing hole but that can change. I have gotten a pretty good education by screwing up some water holes. I'm probably gonna screw up a couple more by bulling ahead.

I'd stop and think about it. You have good fishing now and with a real management plan, it could continue and get better.

BTW, not everybody has been able to whip Oklahoma and North Texas turbidity.

Thanks for everyone's input it helps very much.
I have a long term plan in place to try and improve the turbidity and harvest the catfish.
This pond get so much runoff from several large creeks it is going to take time to have an impact. It does clear coniderably at times, the water clarity in May was nice and I would take it for life. It just gets real muddy with any rain and takes a long time to improve.

I will try and continue to get a better assessment of the fish and work on my improvements. I am adding some brush piles for forage fish and am not going to add any bass at this time. I am convinced though that the forage base needs attention as I have used a trap and tried some seining and gotten nothing.
I plan on backing off on the stocking but adding some larger bluegill to at least get started on improving the forage base. I know the exisiting bass will have some impact but at any point in time I try to improve the forage base through stocking they will have impact.

I am excited about the stocking of my new ponds and look forward to building a great forage buffet for my future trophy bass.

Thanks for all your help and time in responding.

Good Fishing!

Due to a surprise dam failure I had opportunity to renovate my pond. The dam had a tunnel bored though it that turned into a cut that turned the pond into a stream with three pools. A contractor friend brought equipment to fix the dam and dug six nice holes for me around the pond. We made some stone pyramids in the holes that go up six feet to where the surface of the pond should be when it’s refilled. Also had him dig out a patch of cattails in the shallowest part of the pond, that area should be 4 feet deep when filled and I spread gravel several inches thick to hopefully create a spawning bed. Two big brush piles when in as well as ten pine trees I cut.

Since the fish were in pools we got the nets out and cleaned house. I removed all the Israeli or grass carp over 8 inches. I was able to give a lot of them away to golf coarse but a large number of them were buried in a cornfield. It’s hard to identify the smallest carp from the minnows but best estimate is 1200 to 1500 carp under eight inches remain. Also netted were small sunfish no bigger then 4 inches. I’m not sure what they were but every one we could find is gone. All so gone are a dozen or so suckers of decent size. What remain are the Carp under eight inches, thousands of minnows of several species, four 12 to 14 inch musky, and two 12-inch bowfins, and undoubtedly a few for those small sunfish. The pond is starting to fill back up so hear is my stocking plan for the fall.

· Fifty northern strain LMB from a stunted pond near by. The fish from that pond are averaging 8 to 10 inches.
· Fifty Blue gill 4 to 6 inches from a blue gill heavy impound
· 2,000 Blue gill 1 to 2inches (fish farm)
· 800 Red ear 1 to 2 inches (fish farm)

The pond when filled back up will be four acres. It has a spring and creek feeding it so it shouldn’t take long. I know that is not many bass but I whant big fat predators. The Bass should put on lots of weight with the minnows and sunfish. I’m hopping by leaving the smaller carp the musky and bow fins though only six fish will focus on those instead of the bass. If this works I could add 50 8 to 10 inch F1 bass next spring. I want to make sure there is a good forage base.