This may be one of those questions that can only be answered by "it depends". For your pond, there is a probably a goldilocks standing weight and population of BG that will produce the most appropriate (in an average year) quantity of YOY. It is just .... what is that number and how many would you have to remove (or possibly add) to reach that number? Anticipating growth, the weight each Fall would presumably be reduced (or possibly increased) to a level below that target weight. How much? Who knows?
Anyways, this paper consolidates a number of research findings and you may be interested in reading it. Though the synopsis is intended to influence the management of Wisconsin BG, the source references cover a wide geographic area. Anyways, if after reading it thoroughly you find any inspiration, please let us know. A few quips from the paper are below:
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Population size structure influences maturation and reproductive behavior of male bluegills. In Illinois ponds, Aday et al. (2002) found that peak spawning activity in a population of stunted bluegills (all nesting males < 6.3 inches) occurred three to four weeks later than in two populations of non-stunted bluegills (all nesting males ≥ 7.1 inches).
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Populations with higher standing stocks of bluegill may produce lower-density cohorts of offspring. In 38 Midwestern bass-bluegill ponds ranging between 0.5 and 6.0 acres in area, Novinger and Legler (1978) reported that bluegill populations with standing stocks of 100-150 pounds/acre produced the maximum densities of offspring by fall. In ponds with lower and higher standing stocks, densities of age-0 bluegills recovered in fall rotenone samples were considerably lower.
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Schneider (1999) documented low spawning activity in a lightly exploited and dense population of large adult bluegills in Blueberry Pond, Michigan – a relatively shallow, clear, weedy, 20-acre private lake with an extremely high density of large bluegill (204 per acre ≥ 8 inches). He observed very little spawning activity and very low recruitment despite finding that Blueberry Pond bluegills of variable size and condition exhibited normal reproductive potential after being transferred into experimental ponds at low density (8-31 adults per pond, drained after four months to count all age-0 bluegills).
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Schneider (1999) estimated that only 2% of the adult bluegills even attempted to spawn in Blueberry Pond. Because these fish demonstrated the capacity to spawn at expected levels when removed from their high-density environment, Schneider discussed the possibility that social inhibition may have repressed bluegill reproduction in Blueberry Pond.
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There are a variety of examples of walleye (Sander vitreus) demonstrating effectiveness in controlling bluegill recruitment through predation. When walleye assumed dominance in the fish community of 293-acre Escanaba Lake, Wisconsin during the late 1940s and early 1950s, angler catch rates for panfish were extremely low (Kempinger and Carline 1977). As estimated density of age-2-and-older walleyes declined from ~35/acre in the late 1950s to ~15/acre in the early 1960s, angler catch rates for panfish, including bluegills, increased to low but detectable levels of 0.04-0.06/hour. When walleye density rebounded to levels above 25/acre and northern pike (Esox lucius) became well established in the mid to late 1960s, angler catch rates for all panfish species crashed to pre-1955 levels. These co-occurring phenomena suggest that Escanaba Lake predators (particularly walleyes) exerted strong control over panfish recruitment. Kempinger and Carline (1977) believed that a small number of adult panfish were able to produce large numbers of juveniles to sustain high densities of predators in Escanaba Lake, but very few survived to adulthood.
So about as clear as mud, right? Each pond is different but it isn't a cinch that removing some BG will harm the production of food for your LMB. There is potential to increase the production of YOY by doing so. But that isn't a cinch either.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
If large CNBG is the issue, cut back or cut off the feeder. Having said that, large CNBG are great for kids, and they don't hurt anything related to raising large LMB. That's a whole different world.
Given the reference had thousands of words saying "maybe" I thought I did pretty good limiting the words. I don't have an opinion about what Tim should do. Don't know enough about his situation.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Thanks to everyone for this post & particularly the 2002.
I thought I was just struggling with a LMB overpopulation: skinny LMB RW 75%, No exceptional LMB, & can't catch anything below 12". After reading the above, I realize that I also have a Bream problem: 2" bream are almost non-existent, few 3-5", & the majority in the 6" and above range. I have been feeding the bream hoping for an exceptional Apr to Oct spawn from large BG in good condition.
It appears my time would be better spent removing all females caught above 9" & all CNBG in a slot of 6-9". They are as much fun as LMB to catch but I hate cleaning CNBG, though eating them is a different story.
I enjoy my Deeper castable sonar, as that what it was telling me; lots of medium size fish & very few small fish that is your problem. Perhaps a ratio of 10 6" & above to every 4" & below bream seen on the sonar.
For what it's worth, many of us opt not to cull or harvest the largest, best-conditioned bluegills. If there are too many, we typically cull the mid-sized bluegills plinko instead.
Spent about an hour fishing for BG with a goal of removing ALL 5-9" fish caught & all females greater than 5". I thought "This will be easy" Caught 6 fish, all greater than 9". When I thought I had two females because of much lighter overall color & then checked the genital pore it was almost non-existent. You almost needed a magnifying glass to find it. I took it to be a male. The rest were clearly male.
I did see red nasty looking lesions on a couple of the fish. I did not remove them but will in the future.
I suspect, I will have difficulty catching fish in that 5-9" slot. What is the best way forward? From what I see on my Deeper Sonar most all of my BG are in a range, at the very high end of the slot or above. These large BG will decimate the Apr-Oct spawn.
I suspect, I will have difficulty catching fish in that 5-9" slot.
Lots of guys on the forum have had success on BG in fish traps. If you want the 5-9" slot, you could even put in a piece of mesh somewhere in the trap that would let the smaller BG escape.
Can't remember the specific threads, but maybe search the archives for trapping BG.?
Spent about an hour fishing for BG with a goal of removing ALL 5-9" fish caught & all females greater than 5". I thought "This will be easy" Caught 6 fish, all greater than 9". When I thought I had two females because of much lighter overall color & then checked the genital pore it was almost non-existent. You almost needed a magnifying glass to find it. I took it to be a male. The rest were clearly male.
I did see red nasty looking lesions on a couple of the fish. I did not remove them but will in the future.
I suspect, I will have difficulty catching fish in that 5-9" slot. What is the best way forward? From what I see on my Deeper Sonar most all of my BG are in a range, at the very high end of the slot or above. These large BG will decimate the Apr-Oct spawn.
Remove all BG caught?
If your LMB are 75% RW, don't remove ANY bluegulls and remove a bunch of bass, I mean a bunch. Take out between 30 and 40 pounds of them per surface acre this year. Of all sizes, especially the ones that are under 100 RW.
The problem is your bass had enough food of the correct size to get to the length that they are now, but they ate all those fish and now they are losing weight. You need BG in there that are 1/3 the length of the LMB and the LMB are so hungry that they aren't letting the BG grow to that size. The LMB are eating them all when they are small, and because they have to expend just as much or more energy to catch the small fish they can't put on any weight.
Bob Lusk: When bluegill are overpopulated, culling helps. But, be sure bluegills are overcrowded. Here's a sure way to tell. No bluegill except full grown adults exist. Yes No baby bluegill, no baby bass, adult bass are underweight. Yes Bluegill outnumber bass 10-20 to one, and growth of all fish seems to have stopped. Yes Also, adult bluegill are underweight. TillI started feeding If you have all those symptoms, cull bass and bluegill. Culling stimulates spawns, spawns stimulate growth. The above describes my pond.
He later wrote:
There's just enough bass to eradicate young bluegill off the nest. Also, bluegill reproduction is hindered in overcrowded situations. Nature has a way to signal overcrowded fish to slow their reproduction. Overcrowded bluegill produce fewer eggs, and viability is affected because nutrition is affected. A consequence is also minimal reproduction of those intermediate size adult bass. Too many mouths, overall, between bluegill and bass, and the food chain stops mid-stream. Leave that fishery as is for several years, expect the same fish to lose weight, and the food chain to be prematurely eradicated each spring. The solution is this...cull bluegill in conjunction with improving the pond's ability to produce more fish. Increase production, reduce numbers, remaining fish compensate by spawning. New fish, a change of dynamics, improved food chain, and you see a big difference. Feeding, fertilization, and adjusting fish numbers is the best answer for this scenario.
It all seemed to make good sense to me. I have removed LMB till they are infrequent to catch. I have no LMB that can consume a 9" & above BG. When he is lucky a great blue heron does. Takes him a half hour to get it down. I thought the large # of large BG would eliminate most all the BG eggs, fry, & fingerlings before they had a chance to mature. I do have some mature Tilapia males but I am unsure if the pond has any females.
I know I do not have the BG population that the pond should have, missing are the 1-6" BG. iI found a publication about FL ponds & they said that you should expect to feed 2# per acre/ day. I have 3 acres & only can feed 2 # per day for the whole pond.
I know just enough about zoology, biology, ecology, wildlife population management to be dangerous. Seems like culling or no culling BG will get the pond balanced again. Which is the more expedient way?
Total rookie trying to learn but it sounds like you have a missing year class or two in your BG population. You've started to cull some of the LMB if I read the posts correctly.
Any plans to stock some of the missing 2-5" BG in conjunction with your re-building of the food chain? - What will the LMB or other predators eat between now and when the next year class is available?
J.E.Craig, I will see if I can get Bob to weigh in here. Since you are missing a few years (or more) of bluegill in the pond, and the bass are severely underweight, I still say the LMB are overcrowded and eating themselves out of house and home. I could be wrong though!! Fingers crossed Bob sees this, I sent him an email.
Lusk once said: Of all the eggs laid, hatched, etc only a very small percentage will grow large enough to spawn. Why? They get eaten. If they didn’t, there would be an O2 shortage. For that reason, I am reluctant to kill/cull bluegills. They are the basis of the food chain and thus have booming spawns.
The predator/prey relationship has to be balanced. Without bass, bluegills would be their own worse enemy.
One of my ponds is a little less than 1/4 acre. During our ongoing 3 year drought, it’s more like 1/8 acre. It started out, 40 years ago, as a bass, catfish, bluegill, fathead minnow pond. Now, it’s actually a green sunfish pond that don’t successfully spawn. If they did spawn, I would have an O2 crash. I often toss pellets when I get there. Since it’s a mile from the house, I don’t get there on every visit.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
I think that Esshup is correct that there were/are too many bass. That said, I think it is also possible that your BG are not spawning frequently enough. Are you seeing frequent spawning activity? If not ... the population of BG, though not exceeding numerous ... may be at the limits of carrying capacity for the biomass of BG. In other words, they may not be inclined to spawn frequently. Also the biomass may be very concentrated in males. For sure, the LMB you have are not getting the forage they need to thrive.
I will mention a couple other things. You are in a warm location and the metabolic requirements of LMB are very high there. I am not sure of your precise location and local climate (something that varies north to south in climate) but I feel confident that your forage requirements per pound of LMB exceeds that of DFW where I live. Here we need around 5.8 lbs of forage to maintain 1 lb of LMB for 1 year. There the requirement would be well over 6 lbs. Long periods of warm water means you need more spawns and you need to be seeing spawning activity in regular intervals during the warm months. Regular intervals of spawning should also result in distributions of BG across all sizes ... provided ... the number of LMB is appropriate for the production of BG YOY.
So a couple of things come to mind.
1. Having more nests tend to increase production of forage. There is more buffer for the dominant males in the centers of colonies and just more brooding males to deter egg predation. From this perspective, you may need more brood sized BG but in smaller sizes to give you more opportunities of nest success. Since you don't have 4-6" BG to grow into brooder sizes, you probably need to replace any BG you remove with BG of this size range. I would probably replace at 2 or 3 to one. Depending on the length of those you remove this would probably still not fully replace the biomass removed. This would do two things, free carrying capacity allowing replacements to grow well and increase the potential for more frequent spawning.
2. Appropriate populations are balanced to carrying capacity and so it isn't just a number. If your water is lean with a low food limited carrying capacity then the populations will necessarily need to be lower to have fish in good condition. What we don't know is how much your water can carry and why. You can increase carry in a number of ways. For example, reduce excessive macrophytes, increase alkalinity, fertilize, supplement with feed. Any thing you do to increase food limited carry capacity will increase spawning activity and help to produce more forage. I would still prep the pond by getting the pond as close as possible to a goaled population and then institute some program that boosts food limited carry. I would give some thought to stocking say 5 or 6 one pound FEMALE LMB per acre no older than 2 years of age. I would mark them in such a way (eg fin clips) that I could always release them back to the water for continued growth and so I could track their growth. I would declare war on the others until the population were to reflect a healthy population. A great time to introduce the females would be when you have a successful spawn and numerous >1" BG are being observed. But availability may limit your timing. You can also supplement forage when adding the females. About 2 lbs of 2" BG per lb of LMB would not be an excessive amount but would carry the population for a couple or more months. A forage pond is really good for supplements like this especially when you aren't recruiting enough YOY.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Just throwing out some crazy "FishinRod" ideas into a thread that already has some expert discussion.
I know BG are pretty good at pulling off a spawn in whatever habitat is available. Any chance that the OP is a little light on good spawning areas and he could get a good bang for his buck with some habitat improvement?
Even if the BG get through the spawn, is there good cover for them to grow to a size where they have some meat on their bones? I watched a video several years ago where a pond owner made some big cribs with large diameter timber and then loosely packed them with cedar trees. There was maybe a thousand BG suspended in the fluffy cover of each crib.
Any chance some enhanced cover for BG might be a significant improvement for this pond? The fluffy cover is the stuff that degrades the most from year to year unless it is plastic.
Scott emailed me...here are my thoughts. Cull bass...they started the "problem". Weigh and measure all bass caught. If they are under 90 relative weight, remove those fish. If they are 95 or bigger, release them. Those between 90-95, judge the fish on its own merit. How many, you might ask? All of them under 14" for sure. If your biggest bluegills are at least six years old, cull some of them...they are at the end of their lifespan. Don't take the best, fattest ones...take underweight fish to make room for other bluegills to grow up into the slot. Cull bluegills to improve the food chain. If trophy bluegills are a significant goal, only take the underperformers of the larger ones. Increase the lake's productivity by feeding the fish a good, fish-meal-based fish food, and consider fertilization, depending on water clarity.
The dynamics of the population need to be shifted, starting by removing bass...get the mouths off the feed trough. As you do that, alter the bluegills to stimulate a series of spawns. If your adult bluegill numbers seem low due to attrition, consider stocking some younger adult fish, 4-7" long. Feed them and they'll perform.
Last piece of advice...make sure you have enough areas for bluegills to spawn. That's a universal problem I see around most of the south and southeast.
Teach a man to grow fish... He can teach to catch fish...
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