Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations I'm Lost

Hey guys, sorry for the long post, but I really appreciate any input you guys can give.

I have a 1/3-1/2 acre pond in Wayne County, NY, that used to be filled with stunted bass and nothing else. The area around the pond is chemically fertilized so I'm not really excited about eating fish out of it, so it's mostly just a catch-and-release fun pond. In the past, it was easy to catch a lot of bass, but they were emaciated and that bothered me. In the Spring of 2021, I decided to try to fix the problem.

Per the recommendations of many of this forum, and loads of other places, I pulled out all the bass I could catch and added 250 adult bluegill caught from several local bodies of water. I was attempting the "classic" LBM/BG combo.

Last year, I hardly fished the pond at all, just letting the fish spawn up and do their thing. This year, I started fishing it casually here and there, just to take a sampling of what's going on. What did I find? In a word, bluegills. The pond is swarming with them. For example, I brought two of my daughters out earlier today with worms and we caught probably 40 of them in an hour, ranging from 3-9" in length. Several of them were quite large and fat.

But I hardly ever catch bass. I have caught maybe 2 this year, both around 10" long, but that's it.

And now I'm not sure what to do. My goal for the pond was to have a healthy, self-sufficient ecosystem. I don't necessarily care about having huge fish, but I'd love a healthy pond full of fish that bite lures. The kids enjoy catching the bluegills on worms, but you can't catch them on any lures that I enjoy fishing.

So, here are the questions:
1. Did I make a mistake trying to go for LMB/BG in a small northern pond? Seems like now everything I read says that I shouldn't have done that.
2. I feel like I'm headed towards a classic stunted bluegill pond now. How do I fix the problem? I'm a pretty determined angler and I think I could (mostly) fish the bluegill out. I realize I can't get all of them, but I could do some damage on them I think. Should I do that and try to establish a new forage base like YP and GS? My pond isn't overly deep, but I think perch would do ok and would be easier prey for the bass. I just don't have any bass right now that can eat the BG over 4" or so.
4. Speaking of that, should I add more big (14"+) LMB and hope they can do more damage on the mid-sized bluegills and give a boost to the LMB population? I don't mind having a lot of small bass around, as long as they're healthy and not grossly skinny. Maybe the solution is that simple? Maybe I removed too many bass back in 2021?

I'm pretty committed to doing anything I can do to remedy the problem, besides poisoning/draining the pond. I share the pond with my neighbors (who built the pond) and I want to honor their wishes. I'm willing to host some fishing tournaments for my kids' friends and let them try to clear the BG out, or something like that, in order to make space for a new start... but I'm not sure what that new start should look like.

Here's a bit more about the pond:
- 1-8' deep, with most of it in the 2-5' range.
- The entire pond would be full of aquatic vegetation if we didn't fight it chemically and mechanically. Some times in the year (pre-spawn) it's full of weeds. After the spawn we attack the weeds and it opens up... probably too much for the forage to survive heavy predation.

What would you guys do in my situation? Thanks so much!

one word.... SAUGEYE!!!! bluegill eating machines or so they say...

We have the proof on that, CC.
I question whether or not there are some much bigger bass though..
If you said you had mainly 3-5" BG that's one thing, but to have 6-9" too is different. Would you say 90% are of a certain range?

Of the BG I’ve caught this year, here’s an estimated breakdown:
<4” (30%)
4-6” (30%)
>6” (40%)

I'd like some input from others here but that does not indicate (to me) you have a problem, but I may be missing something about the Bass population structure.

Dan, what kind of ice cover have you had the few previous winters, and how thick did the ice get?

I just wonder if there was any chance of winter fish kills.

Thinking forward, if you have a healthy Bluegill population, you may be able to add some 'new' LMB and they would have solid forage.

Yeah, we definitely have healthy bluegills, I'm just not sure where the LMB are. I'm wondering if I removed too many and they haven't been able to reestablish a population due to the heavy pressure from all the BG?


Our ice cover has been pretty weak the last couple years. Nothing that you could walk on. I don't typically clear the ice at all, but we haven't had tons of snow either. Two winters ago, the ice was very clear and I could see green vegetation growing under the ice. I'm not sure how that's possible, but that's what it looked like. This last winter was more typical, cloudy ice and such.

Do you think that adding more LMB is the solution? Or should I try to cut my losses, harvest as many LBM & BG as possible and try adding YP/GS?

By GS, do you mean Golden Shiners? Many here use "GSH" for Golden Shiners.

If you think about stocking a brand new pond with no predator fish in it (LMB or other), the general plan is to let forage fish like Bluegill and Fatheads occupy the new water and breed a few times before putting in the predators. Sometimes it's a year in between.

So, you may have somehow ended up in that initial stage where you've got multiple years of Bluegill going on. If so, then you could ad 30-50 LMB from a norther hatchery and see what happens.

I think you could also add Yellow Perch with the existing mix.

If you wanted to go with Golden Shiners, I'd do the Golden Shiner Frye from Andersons Fish Farm and get on the list for delivery in April/May 2024.

In a LMB/BG pond, you are mostly going to catch BG - that's how predator/prey numbers work.

I've read that you didn't like how things were and that you are (at least) worried about how things are now, but what do you want the pond to be? Define that and you can get some tailored advice (some of it useful) instead of having us tell you what we'd do to get what we want in your situation.

If you want to emphasize large bass, you might want to add some new LMB genetics, but otherwise you are set.

If you liked catching tons of LMB, but want them bigger than stunted - well, that ain't gonna happen.

As Bob Lusk always asks, "What are your goals?"

From reading the forums here, I definitely understand that our goals dictate our process. As I stated in the original post, I don't necessarily care about having huge LMB, but I really want to have a large population of healthy fish that will bite lures. That's why bluegills aren't scratching my itch. So, with that said, I'm not 100% certain what is the surest way to achieve that goal. I'd be happy with a lot more LMB... but also SMB or YP, or something else.

It seems like maybe I just need to add more LMB back into the pond, in addition to some YP and GSH. If I do add more LMB, here are my questions:
1. How many of each size should I try to get my hands on?
2. What time of year would be best to add them in? This fall, or in the spring pre-spawn?

Thanks!

I might be over-simplifying here but 40% are above 6" and 60% are below 6". To me, if BG were not in check there would be something like 90% below 5" and a few % above 5-6". But, I don't know the time frame of bass removal. I'm going to assume you see very large numbers of 1-3" fish??
My goal for the pond was to have a healthy, self-sufficient ecosystem. I don't necessarily care about having huge fish, but I'd love a healthy pond full of fish that bite lures.
This is a goal...in a 1/3 acre pond using LMB and BG it will require frequent management and selective harvest. The population structure is still in the midst of changing from removing the LMB.
To be fair, this will take some time to rectify, in my opinion.
In a 1/3 ac pond, numbers of LMB will be very limited to be of the right size to control BG. They will vary greatly in size in the numbers that will achieve balance.
I would not add any other species at this time as it will take the pressure off of the needed BG control.
It will take some patients.
The number of Bass recommended are not going to be std numbers if you want to regain control and when they start to show a lower RW they need to be removed.
I will also add that the low number of decent sized bass it will grow, can become hook-shy very quickly.

Yeah, that is a concern for sure. I'm watching it happen to my friend's pond right now. It used to be great for fishing, but the bass don't bite like they used to.

Question, do YP develop the same hook-shy tendencies?

Probably to a much lesser degree but I'm going to say during the warmer summer months they tend to slow down compared to other species.

Yeah, that seems to match what I've seen. In my experience, perch are crazy aggressive, but less-so in the summertime.
Can I ask you a couple semi-related questions?

1. Is it possible for YP to be the apex predator in a pond that has BG?
2. YP are awesome to eat, but I'm a bit apprehensive about eating fish out of our pond. The landowner we share the pond with fertilizes the lawn around the pond in the spring. He also sprays Roundup on some of the weeds around the pond, despite the fact that I've asked him not to. Would that scare you away from eating the fish, or am I being overly cautious?

Thanks.

Dan,

I am NOT an expert on this topic, but you may be overly cautious. (Which is clearly the best side of the line to be on - when you don't know exactly where the line is.)

They do spray Roundup directly on corn and soybeans, and it is generally safe to use in a backyard vegetable garden where you spray the soil with Roundup and then plant after all of the existing weeds are dead. Once Roundup hits soil, it becomes pretty immobile and starts breaking down fairly quickly.

Maybe you should grab a water sample right after the WORST possible scenario occurs. For example, the neighbor sprays Roundup and it rains 2" that same night and water goes directly into your pond.

You should have a state agency that will test water (generally from water wells) to determine if it is fit for human consumption. You might have to pay a little extra and check a box that your water could have inputs from nearby agricultural production.

If there is no state testing available, then a private lab can run your sample.

Either way, ask whichever lab for their proper collection protocols.

Hopefully, a clean water test will give you some peace of mind on your fish consumption safety.

P.S. Culling some fish is a necessary part of managing a pond. I had a friend's pond that was overpopulated with stunted crappie. He showed us the spot on a hill to dump all of the small crappie that we caught where the vultures subsequently cleaned them up. It was tough for me to just "waste" the fish, even though I knew it was the correct thing to do. You can certainly manage your pond by catching and culling to keep your populations at the appropriate balances. However, catching and eating has definite enjoyable benefits - if you are comfortable eating the fish from your pond!

Good luck on getting your pond into great shape to meet your future goals!

We spray Glyphosate directly on emergent pond plants, it's not harmful to fish or invertebrates if the correct version is used.
Isopropylamine salt is what you want. Rodeo is specifically blended for use in/on water containing fish. Glyphosate is available with 3 other types that are NOT good for fish. Brand Roundup has other chemicals that can affect aquatic organisms depending on how it's used, so be sure it's isopropylamine salt as active ingredient.

When a given fish becomes 'hook-shy,' I think we consider that as the fish won't hit lures. I think if you fish with live bait, that problem may be diminished.

1) No. the YP won't get big enough.
2) If it was me, I wouldn't be worried about it.

I just re-read this thread. Very helpful.

Thank you to everyone who contributed. This is a great forum.

Dan,

I'm sorry to hear about your pond and I hope that you've got this sorted out some. I realize this is an older post, but in case you're still looking for a solution I would recommend investing in a few bait fish traps (examples linked there) and thinning your bluegill population that way (with traps). You can easily remove 30-50 fish per soak on a trap and this would add up pretty quickly for you if you had a few traps that you were working. Since your pond is not huge, you could do some damage really quickly with some traps.

Best of luck buddy. I do hope you have it turned around some at this point though.

Dan - Do you still check on this thread? IMO you probably took too many bass out of the pond. Another possibility is the remaining bass are various forms of lure shyness. If you restock some bass to help eat BG stock sizes that are at least 3X longer than the BG that you want consumed. 3"BG stock 9"-11" bass.

A medium large form of fish trap will catch numerous BG, more little ones than those larger than 6". In addition to the traps in the link, look into building or buying a Z trap. They also work good. Do not add YP to this pond. If you do you will very likely have two species of fish that are too small.

If anyone uses glysophate for emergent vegetation around the pond consider using ShoreKlear Plus designed for pond or water use (glysophae + the proper approved around water surfactant.