Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Sunfish Id ?

Bill won't stick his neck out because he actually cares about being right.

I live with three women, work with ten women and coach 10 sixth grade girls. I am accustomed to always being WRONG!

BM,

I'm not sure I'd say respect, but a 10 inch GS would get my attention..

I have caught several 8" greenies out of my pond in order to help clean them out. Granted most are the 5"-6" common greenies. From what I have seen here in the north my greenies (even fat chunky ones) tend to have more lengthy body than do my gills in the 8 inch range. I also notice that on the ones I have caught that the mouth slighty resembles that of a warmouth / Bass with the upper lip hieght being just above the the bottom side of the eye. This picture it is a little hard to see that. I will go with the BG / GS guys on this one. Although I will agree that the yellow in the fins defineately resembles a full GS.

Remember Squeeky's quote:

"Never been stocked".

It seems to be quite a stretch that he's got a population of naturally occcuring hybrids that constitute such a large percentage of his population. Fifteen for fifteen? Any naturally occurring populations I've seen we would catch hybrids at most at a rate of one in twenty.

I guess a question would have to be how old is the pond? How long have you owned it? If you haven't owned it for its entire life are the previous owners certain that it was never stock? It would be interesting to see DNA for this fish. Do you have more photos of other catches made of this same type fish?

Squeeky,

Has your pond ever had any of those expensive "hybrid bream" stocked? It looks like one after a generation or 2 of breeding. They are still pretty large fish at this point.

My little cleanup project hasnt been touched in many years. I fished it first time 2 wks ago. Caught mostly medium sized female BGs and some smaller males, all on resident shiner minnows. Caught a couple strange looking ones, wish I'd had a camera, will next time. It was very aggressive hitting a 2 inch shiner and wanting to take it home under a willow. Had a pretty large mouth and a nearly vertical 'forehead'. Strange things happen, as with the 'human pond' called earth. Here I go getting philosophical again.

The pond existed on the property when
I acquired it a little over 4 years
ago. It had been used to water livestock,
and I can only guess as to when it was
built. My camera does not have macro
zoom capibility, but I'll try to post
a better pic. The problem is, the pond
is heavily weeded on the perimeter and
I had to use a small inflatible raft to
get to open water.

An important question about natural hybridization is the general water clarity. Does it get muddy or turbid very often, in particular during the spring? Did the previous landowner say anything about having fish stocked?

The water is always very clear and the
I don't believe that the pond was ever
stocked since the previous owner had
little interest in fishing. There is
no contributing water flow from upland
ponds, with open pasture being the only
watershed. How the fish arrived ? - Well,
the trip down that discussion road of
conjecture can be travelled forever.

About 10 years ago we built our ponds. We finished them in the summer one year and the following spring (late March as I recall) we stocked it according to local fish and wildlife guidelines with LMB, BG and CC fingerlings. Well in April I was making a few casts with a new rod and reel I had just purchased to head down to Lake Cumberland for a little smallmouth/walleye action. Low and behold I hooked into an enormous GS that hit a pretty good-sized pumpkin colored grub. Needless to say I was shocked and a bit concerned for my fry.

Does anyone know why GS seem to be the first fish in any new body of water? I have my theories on water birds carrying in eggs on their legs or dropping a fish from their mouth but they seem improbable considering GS are the only fish that have a reputation for materializing out of thin air.

What gives?

I think we can rule out intentional stocking. If the previous landowner didn't have interest in fishing it would be unlikely he would have spent the money to bring in hybrids.

In ponds with clear water natural hybridization is much more unusual. Generally turbid conditions, especially in the spawning period contribute to spawning anomolies. Not saying it doesn't happen, it just wouldn't happen to all of them.

KY Cardinal:

You are right about GSF seeming to be the first species to "materialize out of thin air". Close seconds would be various bullheads and common carp. My guess as to why is that it has something to do with "Murphy's Law". Either that or, since we are gonna spend so much time fussin' with our ponds anyway, it's just nature's way of saying "if you don't stop crying I'll give you something to cry about". :rolleyes:

I can think of four separate instances where GS were the first fish to colonize a pond, all unstocked.

Our fisheries chief thinks that GS are sometimes found in waterways without continuous flow. A short upsteam migration during a rain event, followed by living for a few months in stagnant puddles left behind could be a GS vector.

In our case the lake was built in a cornfield with no bodies of water in the watershed. Interesting that there is no definitive answer.

Looks to me exactly like a large version of my hybrids...but they're only 4-6 inches right now. I believe that's what it is, anyway...

Here's a GS (poor pitcher...sorry) about 8.5". Had 'nother 10", but slicked him out before I remembered the camera...meaty devils!

[img]http://images.snapfish.com/3443386723232%7Ffp54%3Dot%3E232%3C%3D847%3D556%3DXROQDF%3E232355%3B%3C35633ot1lsi[/img]

Since we're all theorizing and getting philosopical, here's my 2 pennies worth:

It looks mostly like a large green sunnie to me but seems to have too many bluegill characteristics to dismiss them entirely. I would bet that a long time ago someone was thinking about making a little fishing hole out of the watering hole and dumped a bucket (maybe a dozen or two) of bluegills in there.

I've read that any time you have a small population of one type of sunfish with an abundance of other sunfish you are likely to end up with some hybridization, like it or not. So those bluegill would have cross bred with the green sunnies. Then over generations the bluegill traits would dwindle but the helpful traits would remain.

Also the darker than normal color would be from natural selection as well, since you said that this pond has lots of plant life. The small ponds I've worked on that have lots of plant life seem to end up with darker colored fish over time because of the advantages of being dark in all those dark plants and shady places. It seems to often be that way regardless of water clarity, even though you would think otherwise.

That's my guess until we get better pictures. (Altough there's always the question about why none of my theoritical bluegill were able to stay pure?)

Paul

Paul G, member #297.

Where in thee hell have you been? Glad your back, of course.

Not trying to call you out or anything, just wondering where all of the early members (numbers)have been.

Anothe factor I have been told that contributes to natural hybrids is competition for optimum spawning habitat. This can especially be true in small ponds. If only a small area of the pond has a good sand/gravel substrata all species of sunfish may spawn there at once.

I completely agree with Cecil. Another reason why this is such a good forum.

I agree with Bill Cody.

Bruce,
This is a good forum even when you don't completely agree with Cecil!

And also if you don't completely agree with Ric!

It's your perogative to be wrong! :p

Cecil,
I admire your aquatic knowledge & apreciate you sharing it.
I just couldn't resist a poke at Bruce for his comment: ;)
I agree with the meaning of his statement 100%. He's right & if anything understated the benifit of this forum!
Just picking, something I do too much of sometimes. :rolleyes:

I like when there's just a hint of controversy. It keeps everybody on their toes.

With ponds sometimes there can be viewpoints and perspectives that are quite different, yet correct in their own ways.

The Pond Boss forum really doesn't allow complacency. I've had ideas challenged that I was pretty confident in, then after reconsideration, I modified my way of thinking. That is a very good thing.

Ric and Bruce,

I'm just having a little fun here to when I kid around. Thank you for your kinds words but I am still learning!

I respect everyone on this site and can't believe how docile it is considering there really isn't much moderation. Apparently everyone on here is eager to dispatch knowledge and to learn it.

Now a taxidermy forum and political forum I frequent are another story entirely! It gets downright abusive!