Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose New pond stocking

Will be digging 3/4-1acre new pond in MI. Thinking of doing SMB,YP, and BG(res and/or hyb). Located in mid Michigan so pond will freeze over. Will res do ok with that cold? Will also stock fhm and gsh. Can I do a mix of hybrid/res or do you recommend something else . Will have few pallet structures for spawning in shallows as well as gravel bed, rock piles and artificial trees. Pond will be used for both swimming and fishing for the kids. Would like to catch some big bg but have read res are not as easy to catch so was thinking adding hybrids as well. Also I’ve seen a few different posts regarding HSB. Some say legal in MI some say they are not. my pond will not run off into any lakes or streams so that won’t be a problem, I’m just not sure if I can legally buy them? If I drove to oh/in will they suppliers sell them to me? If not Hsb do I need another predator fish at all? WE will they do ok? I’d just as soon not do cc as my kids are scared of them

Hello and welcome to PB Forum. A new pond has proven over and over that the first crop of fish stocking will grow and produce the best fishery for the life span of the pond. This is because the first stocking of fish has no competition and these fish usually grow the fastest and biggest due to having the most available foods with out competition except for siblings. Thus each fish gets more food. Our mentor the Pond Boss Lusk always says every day a fish does not fill its belly is a day it does not grow.

Your current plan is: ""Thinking of doing SMB,YP, and BG(res and/or hyb)." Other members here with SMB and BG (sunfish) will hopefully add helpful comments to this thread.

As you do more forum homework on this topic (google search pond boss forum and your topic or use PB Forum Search) you will read that SMB do not do very well with BG and most other panfish because SMB are not evolutionarily developed to have a main diet of can-lid shaped sunfish. They will eat them but not really thrive on them. Thus SMB have proven numerous times with forum members here to not do a good job of controlling recruitment of BG. The common sunfish suggested for northern ponds is is the pumpkinseed(PS) or RES because they have a less common problem of overpopulating and they both eat snails. IMO you are on the FAR northern range for RES and especially RES from southern producers such as those from AK where about all farm purchased RES are sourced. PS are basically only available from other ponds and lakes for pond owners in MI. IMO your only chance for RES real success in MI is to collect your broodstock from lakes in MI where RES have been stocked,... become winter adapted, and thrive. I have recently been involved in identifying what lakes in Southern MI have thriving populations of RES. Maybe I can re-find that information that I gave another MI new pond owner?

Here is a taste of PB threads about SMB spawning and a little BG info.
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=66673&page=1

For your reference there is a fish farm in central Ohio that has specklebelly sunfish which is a hybrid of BGXRES. He is currently raising them indoors on pellets. Supposedly these grow fast and big and have very limited egg hatch and recruitment. search this forum for some limited info about specklebelly sunfish

Based on your MI location and if it were my pond and my heart was set on SMB I would FIRST stock various minnows, YP and SMB. Laggis (Gobles MI) has excellent stock for pellet raised YP. He also has very good SMB. Actually most of Laggis' YP come from an Ohio producer. Maybe use papershell crayfish as added good forage food and to help with FA control if enough rock habitat is available. My articles about growing YP in ponds, and my lengthy YP experience says YP will grow large (12"-15" some to 16") in ponds and be ever bit as good of a panfish in northern ponds as BG or any sunfish. IMO kids will enjoy catching big, always wiling to bite, YP as much or better than catching BG.

Then after living with YP as the main panfish and / or anytime later you need something "more" you can always add some sort of sunfish (BG-HBG) and or LMB. However if you first stock the sunfish, you will not be able to rid the pond of BG or sunfish or LMB once added, The YP-SMB fishery pond will always fairly quickly decline once Sunfish(BG) - LMB are added. YP and SMB are not strong competitors with BG types and - LMB.

If you actually drive into OH for fish and you do not tell them your pond location nor your address most farms will probably sell you fish. Give them a fake address.
What you do with the fish is your business and liability. You can always say they are food fish to be grown indoors - aquaponics.

Josh-MI we need to talk!

You aren't far from me and I'd love to give help and perspective. Hopefully I can save you some problems by helping you avoid my mistakes. I'm on the SW edge of Grand Rapids. I stocked RES and they did not survive. Not sure if it was winterkill or disease, we caught them one year after stocking but never again. Bill can share research about lakes that were stocked and did keep a natural RES population but they are all in counties that are more southcentral and east in MI compared to Kent county where I live. I'd love to try again but sourcing RES in MI is not possible. You would have to drive them in from IN or Ohio.

I second the motion to get YP from Laggis. However I also strongly encourage you to spend time building forage base before adding predators. If you haven't started construction yet you have a lot of time to research and think while pond is built and fills. If you are still planning the location, depth, contours then you need to study the forum on pond building and be extra, EXTRA cautious you don't hire a 'dirtmover' or 'hole digger' or 'yep we built ponds before' type of contractor. Check out their work, check out other ponds they did and talk to the pond owners.

There is so much that goes in planning the site, preparing the contours, figuring out soil types, perhaps even adding a sealing agent while building pond if soils are not ideal clay. IF you have clay seek out a proper sheepsfoot roller system and talk to others.

There is ton to say about balancing a pond between swimming and fishing. They are kind of polar opposites but I'm sure you can meet somewhere in the middle. The best fishing pond and the best swimming pond cannot co-exist.

I'd like to share our efforts in sourcing fish, I may need some fish from Laggis and if one of us finds a way to get RES we can share resources.

I can explain more about HSB in MI although the sticking point is not the law but getting them. Fish haulers face penalties if they haul fish across state lines and don't follow all the rules. The rules about HSB are unwritten and hard to figure out. If you have no inlet or outlet then you are an exception to the rules but still there may be additional precautions to take.

Lots of forage options to discuss. If you can, use tilapia as forage and algae control. They get stocked in spring and die in fall so finding a local aquaponics shop that can supply you with breeding size pairs would really help.

I look forward to hearing more from you. Lets start with this. Can you share more about site prep, selecting dirt mover, and what your test holes showed? What is the surrounding property like?

CC

Our basic goal on this forum is to not discourage new ideas or creativity of stocking different fish combinations in ponds. Our goal is to provide and advise with science based knowledge and or practical experiences for helping pond owners solve all sorts of pond problems.

New ideas and creative use of fish ecology, feeding preferences, and fish behavior (ethology - the study of animal behavior in nature) is how some of our unique, non-standard good fishery advice has been developed; often using experimentation, trial & error. For example - yellow perch in ponds. Government agencies discourage stocking YP in ponds. However when done correctly and the perch are managed properly, yellow perch can be an excellent panfish, food fish, and sport fish in ponds. I have learned that successful pond high quality fisheries are, as in all types of farming, primarily about MANAGEMENT of the crop in terms of numbers and sizes.

When stocking and using fish that are less compatible in the community one has to be prepared for the learning consequences, failures, disappointments and successes. Here we try to share our experiences with all sorts of pond management concepts. When one progresses into new fish stocking territory or against proven successes one has to be prepared for the results. My experience is - the bigger the pond is,,, the harder it is to 'start over'. Small ponds due to their easy renovation are good experimental candidates for new fish stocking ideas.

When stocking and using fish that are less compatible in the community one has to be prepared for the learning consequences, failures, disappointments and successes. Here we try to share our experiences with all sorts of pond management. When one progresses into new fish stocking territory or against proven successes one has to be prepared for the results. My experience is the bigger the pond is the harder it is to 'start over'. Small ponds due to their easy renovation are good experimental candidates for new fish stocking ideas.

Josh:

I'm in the middle of Ohio. One of my ponds has SMB, YP, a few CC, and a very healthy, larger than I want (in numbers, but growing impressive in size) population of BGxRES. The latter were not stocked as Specklebelly Sunfish, but are rather the result of adding about 4 dozen male only BG to a breeding population of RES in 2008-2011. There may still be some pure RES left in the pond, but I can't swear to it, as the BGxRES (now in Fx generations that have an interesting mix of characteristics) are much more aggressive wrt taking feed and being caught.

I find BGxRES to be wonderful IF you have the predators or time to control their numbers. My SMB/large YP/CC predation is not sufficient to keep the BGxRES numbers where I want them, so I remove about 500 BGxRES by angling every year from this 1/2 acre pond. (Roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of these are eating sized - 6 1/2" to 9"; I return all BGxRES 9" and larger, with a current BGxRES record of 13.25" and just over 2 1/2 pounds.)

If you stock minnows for forage, SMB and YP, you could always add Northern-hardy RES or PS later if they become available. RES don't naturally occur North of the Wabash; IIRC the area of MI where they can survive "most years" is limited to the lower half of the LP and near the lakes.

P.S. Always listen to Bill Cody (especially wrt YP). I've found I agree with him 90% of the time, and I'm wrong a lot of the other 10%.

Theo,

I like your observation about the aggressiveness of BG/RES crosses!

Have you checked the stomach contents while cleaning those hybrids? They sound like an excellent fish to add to our pond management toolbox - especially if they still eat snails.

Thanks for the reply’s! Canyon creek- I’m about 30min east of GR. I’m a little nervous as I would say he is more of a “dirt mover”. I had never really considered digging a pond until a friend of mine had this guy dig him a 1acre pond that turned out beautiful and way cheaper than I had figured one would cost. That’s what got me interested. I have a wet spot in my front yard that has standing water 7months of the year and that’s where I originally had it planned for. I have since switched to my back yard after discussions with said “dirt mover”. it is a low spot in the woods that always has water in it. He was going to come this summer to remove trees and dig but we decided I might as well hire a logger to take out any trees worth anything first. The excavator has not had a chance to get out since that was done a month ago. He has not dug a test hole yet but from the digging I’ve done in my yard pretty sure it’s solid clay. He also dug a pond years ago for my neighbor that is all clay and still holding water. After reading this site and buying mike ottos book I’ve realized there’s a lot more to it then digging a hole and letting it fill. I know he does dig a lot of ponds(I’ve been to 3 of them) but I don’t think they are quite as detailed as the ones I’ve read about on here. He was pretty confident in the site location but plans to dig test holes before starting. I’m removing pretty much all the trees to the west and clearing them back from the pond as far as I can On the other sides.

Tree leaves are enemies of ponds in regards to added organic muck accumulation, DO sags, and causing added unnecessary decompositional gasses and products. The fewer leaves that get into a pond the better the overall water quality and longer between needed pond rebuilds.

Mr Gallus is too kind and thoughtful but definitely wise in wisdom.

Bill-
my heart is not set on smb, I just thought it would be different than what most ponds around here have. That’s why I was thinking res or hybrids as I didn’t think they were as prolific spawners as sunfish. My father has a pond with hybrids and lmb and I love the ease of catching and seeing those 1lbs gills. He has not done a good job of controlling the population though as his hybrids have all started to die off and his pond is overrun with small lmb( pond is prob 12 years old or so). I wouldn’t be completely agains leaving out bg or maybe just some hybrids so they don’t repopulate much? But will the smb need more minnows if it was just smb/perch? Or say I did have some Hsb magically appear in my pond would that be enough to help keep bg population in check? I wanted to do lmb and smb but have been reading how that doesn’t work well either.

Theo- can I go to a hatchery and say I just want all male BG or do you have to buy them all and sort them out?

[quote=Bill Cody]Tree leaves are enemies of ponds in regards to added organic muck accumulation, DO sags, and causing added unnecessary decompositional gasses and products. The fewer leaves that get into a pond the better the overall water quality and longer between needed pond rebuilds.

Mr Gallus is too kind and thoughtful but definitely wise in wisdom.[/quote



Yes I am clearing out about 2 acres of trees around where the pond site will be(including everything to the west which will join my existing lawn)

No gastronomic autopsies, but no snails have been observed for, let's see, at least ten years. (And I stocked snails in the pond before the fish went in.) Parasite load on the fish is IMO fairly low, too.

A living vegetative hedge around the prevailing wind side of the pond helps a lot to reduce wind blown leaves. Arborvitae or white cedar are very good trees around the pond. I sadly learned spruce and pine needles will move surprisingly far in strong winds.

YES HYBRID BG DO HAVE LIMITED REPRODUCTION ESPECIALLY IN THE EARLY LIFE OF THE POND. AS MORE GENERATIONS OF HBG RECRUIT I THINK A LARGER PERCENTAGE OF FEMALES DEVELOP THAT CAN RESULT IN MORE OFFPSRING PER YEAR. See above post by Theo Gallus.
If interested in using HBG, you should read and study this detailed thread from our Archives.
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=256325#Post256325

“”But will the smb need more minnows if it was just smb/perch?”” THIS COMES DOWN TO HOW BIG DO YOU WANT THE LARGER SMALLIES TO BE. THE MORE FOOD A FISH EATER GETS,,,, THE LARGER IT GROWS. The more forage fish present generally the larger the SMB and YP will become. If stocking pellet trained SMB-YP and they are fed high quality pellets routinely this helps grow bigger predators when minnow numbers are limited. Food as natural items or pellets grows more and bigger fish. Fish need some sort of abundant appropriate sizes of foods to grow. Always remember you are growing a crop. It doesn’t make much difference whether you are growing plants or animals.

Too many hogs feeding at the trough limits growth of all. To keep them growing you need to add more food or reduce the number of hogs. The management technique of keeping high numbers of small sized bass present results in low recruitment of the prey fish; be it sunfish &/or minnows.

For 7-10 years I had a local 0.3 acre pond with YP-HBG – SMB & a few HSB with weekly pellet feeding. This worked pretty good until a DO sag eliminated the SMB – HSB. Without restocking and some mismanagement the HBG offspring quickly overpopulated. Depending on predator density SMB and HSB I think could do a good job of controlling offspring of HBG because they have limited offspring. At times you may need to manually remove HBG offspring as noted above by Theo Gallus for his pond. When the predators are not adequately doing the JOB you need to HELP them to maintain the desired balance of fishes. Remember when using HSB they really should have a few added each year or two or three (ladder stocking). .

""I wanted to do lmb and smb but have been reading how that doesn’t work well either."”
LMB and SMB can be done together,, but for long term good numbers of smallies the SMB need to be ladder stocked to keep mixed SMB sizes present as time and mortality take its toll on old smallies. Our Form Member Sunil has used SMB with LMB and he could provide more insight for this topic.

Using HSB ….. “" would that be enough to help keep bg population in check?""
I think that SMB and or HSB will not do a good job of controlling BG; HBG yes but BG no. BG are too prolific with wide sizes to swallow for SMB&HSB. In dealing with BG one should ideally have LMB who are naturally evolved with best behaviour and extra large mouths to efficiently prey on sunfish. IMO it would take a high number of HSB/ac to control BG recruitment. HSB do NOT have as large of mouth as LMB and SMB. Mouth and gape of HSB is about 1/2 that of LMB.

As I recall deceased Form member George Glaisner (TX) used HSB in a small pond with BG. I do not remember how well BG were controlled. Other members should help verify this statement. HSB will need to be ladder stocked – a few each year to maintain mixed sizes of several year classes. Smaller predators are eating the small fish and larger predators are preferably eating the next larger sizes of prey. Density of HSB with BG would maybe need to be close to the standard or common LMbass stocking numbers per acre of 100/ac for controlling prolific BG. Other pond owners with HSB-BG should add information about this topic. Control of BG becomes more of a problem if there are other fusiform (slender) forage species also present with sunfishes. Would you rather swallow a can lid or hot dog?

I'm not Theo, but as a fish hauler/seller I wish you luck on trying to get all male BG from a hatchery. A couple of problems that you will run into. 1) The fish won't be large enough for you to reliably sex them. 2) The hatchery won't have the time for anyone there to try to sex them, nor will they want to handle the fish that much before selling them. - The ones that aren't Male might develop fungus issues from the extra handling and maybe die, and that would be a loss fro the hatchery.

You can buy "X" amount of BG and sort them to just get "mostly" males, but you'd better have a fillet knife ready for the others, and see #1 above.....

Also in Mi. I don't know of anyone that sells regular BG, just HBG.

In Mi, IF your pond has a permanent inflow or outflow, even if it dumps onto a pasture, the pond owner has to get a pond stocking permit from the state. The state will tell you want fish you can or cannot put in your pond. The fish hauler has to have a copy of that permit in the truck when they cross the state line if they are coming from out of state, and probably have to have the permit in the truck even if they are within the state of Mi. Unless you have a piece of paper from the state saying that a stocking permit is not needed. The fish truck guy can get in the same amount of hot water that the pond owner will get into for not having the proper permit.

For instance in Ohio, there are certain parts of the state where you cannot stock HSB. Every state has it's own laws. In Illinois you cannot legally stock Tilapia in ponds. If you get caught in Illinois doing that, it could be a $250,000.00 fine and it is a violation of the Federal Lacy Act.....

I would go for it if it was legal. If the SMB/HSB cannot control the BG numbers, then add more HSB. If the BG in the pond surpass the gape of the HSB, then it's up to you to keep the population under control by fishing or trapping the excess numbers of BG.

I haven't pursued it further but I suspect if you need smaller quantities of HSB you could have them shipped. More and more aquaponics places are selling and shipping to all 50 states. If you put them in as one of the first species along with forage fish they will grow rapidly (especially on fish food supplemental) and will become your first 'apex predator' The good thing about HSB is they do not reproduce so you know exactly how many go in and how many perish or are caught. They also only can eat certain sized fish so that gives you a way to control their predator success. Gives you a little idea on how balance the predator/prey ratio is.

I'd love to see if you can source RES and try them in your pond. If we could figure out a way to get them to overwinter in our climate it would be great. I'm moving away from RES due to no source and trying pumpkinseed but again struggle to find source unless I catch them myself.

I like what I hear so far about your pond site and the soil. If you can visit other people who had ponds dug and they held water, and your soil is similar that is a good start. It sounds like this is a groundwater pond that doesn't have a huge runoff area and doesn't have a dam?

Removing roots and trees if you can tolerate no shade around your pond will help as trees suck tremendous amounts of water from your pond. I have a wall of forest on west side and a few smaller trees on the east side. I have way too many leaves and spend many hours mucking them out in the spring. Oak leaves are the worst...

Any update for the forum Josh?

Sorry I’m back…had some things happen and put the pond on hold for awhile. I’m back planning to dig the hole again. Spoke with contractor and he figured he could get over here in the next couple weeks. Been doing a little more reading and figuring I’m going to start off with FH and GSH and then will add YP and SMB possibly a few WE. My question is how late is to late to stock the fish? Should I start off with the forage minnows this fall and then the others in the spring? I’m not sure how long it will take for the pond to fill up once it is dug. It will a groundwater pond with a bit of run-off

Typically SMB are available in the Spring in Mi. YP are available all year long. The sooner you stock the predators the more forage fish has to be initially stocked. You want the forage fish to reproduce to get their numbers higher, but at the same time you have to have habitat that they use for reproduction.

In Odessa, I assume you will be getting the YP-SMB from Laggis Fish Farm, Gobbles MI. check with him for when he has these fish available so you have a good plan and schedule for fish stocking. I think he sells most of his pellet trained SMB in Fall and the YP are mostly in spring - but verify this with Laggis.

As esshup suggests get the forage fishes stocked first so they can multiply heavily before adding the YP-SMB. Summer spawning of FHM stocked at 5-8lbs per acre can at the end of summer produce 80-100 lbs of minnows / acre. This is a tremendous food source for the YP-SMB. I have had good luck stocking pellet trained YP (4-6") in spring with the initial stocking of minnows. If YP added with minnows add 12-20 lbs of FH per acre. The pellet trained YP will eat mostly pellets all summer while the minnows heavily reproduce all summer. Then in Fall stock the SMB. Some have waited until the YP have the first spawn before adding the SMB. Done this way the SMB grow like gang-busters.

Just my current 2 cents, but I would not add Golden Shiners until you have an established predator base.

Welcome back Josh! glad to have you back. While you were busy and away we heard more from and about fellow MI pond owner Ron Crismon and his amazing ponds hosting YP and SMB. His fish are pellet trained and he has fantastic reproduction going on and may be able to help you out earlier this fall or spring. SMB are easy for him to produce in any size class when you need them. He is south of GR in the vicinity of Allegan.

I would say focus on getting the pond complete and only put forage in yet this fall if you have time.

Save YP stocking till right at ice out if you can get them from Ron and perhaps you will get bonus free YP egg strands being laid after stocking in your pond which would get you well on your way to have your first new generation of YP already in your pond right away.

I would second the idea of not using GSH at all or saving them till their numbers can be controlled by at least SMB as a predator or SMB plus another predator.

You can get Walleye from Stoney Creek up by Grant, MI up to a certain date in the fall, check with them. If you can only get them in the fall then maybe a few WE would have to go in the pond this fall.

Thanks all. I was planning on getting them from Laggis but have not spoken to them yet- I left a voicemail yesterday.

Canyon creek- I had seen you mention Ron Crimson’s name in another thread. Does he raise them and sell them for stocking or are you saying just get a few larger ones direct from him to add to mine? Also was going to reach out to you about RES as I know you had mentioned getting some that were raised this far north. In one of the other threads someone (maybe bill cody) listed a few lakes in MI that have them. One of them was saubee lake which is in sunfield and only about 20min from me- I may try to fish it at some point and see if I can catch a few to bucket stock. What are your thoughts on that? I have seen mixed feelings on bucket stocking fish from another lake. It would be next spring or summer before I did that I was just surprised there was one that close to me.

I will leave out the golden shiners for now then and just do fhm this fall. Unless I were to do a few wallet still this fall then I would think I’d want some gsh for them?

We’ll my pond might not be happening now. Excavator was over today and the spot we had looked at and planned has way more water in it then I had thought. It’s so thick and grown up I had never been back in the middle of it. I knew it held some water most of the year but never realized how much. He drove back in their clearing brush along the way but is prob an acre area that has 2-3’ of standing water thru the whole thing. I don’t really have a place to pump that much water to and he said he couldn’t dig with that much in there. The ground is pretty mucky and I was worried about that but he did dig a hole and there is clay underneath. I just don’t know how to get rid of the water. Thanks everyone for all of your fish answers, looks like I got to excited and jumped the gun on my pond plans.

Darn!

I would keep your plans. Who knows, you might have a bad drought year in the future and be able to sneak in and complete your project.

I haven’t updated this thread in awhile but I switched locations of my pond to the front yard. It was dug this fall and is now completely full(and overflowing). It’s about .4 acres and 12-14’ deep(I was hoping for good enough ice to get on it this winter but hasn’t happened). I put in a couple pallet spawning beds. Have 1 more that I didn’t get in that I will try to get in this summer. I have 5-6 of the pvc trees, and 1 small rock piles(again was hoping for ice to put some more in) I have a beach with a mesh fabric liner with enough just enough sand to hold it down ((Will get more sand on it this summer) Was able to get posts in for a 36’ long dock that I’ll have to finish at some point. I placed some hardwood boards under it I in 2-3’ of water hoping it might be good for fhm spawning.. I’ve spoken with Leggis in regards to yp and sm. He said they would have both available in the spring. I’m going to send Ron crimson a message as well to see what he has. I was not able to put any fatheads in this fall but I have a pretty good resource to get them and pretty cheap. I would like some advice on stocking numbers. Leggis has yp 4-6” and 3-4”. I was thinking getting 100 of those-prob just go with 4-6” as price wasn’t that much more. Smb are 3-4” I was thinking 25 and then around 10-12lbs of fatheads. Maybe this fall get 5 or so Walleye just for a variety fish.

Josh, thanks for the update.

Are you saying no fish have been stocked as of yet? None?

See if you can get 100 3"-5" Redear Sunfish, and if you can't get those get 100 Pumpkinseed Sunfish. They will eat snails in the pond, and the snails are a crucial part in the life cycle of white and yellow grubs and black spot disease (which really isn't a disease). https://www.in.gov/dnr/fish-and-wil...ldlife-diseases-in-indiana/fish-disease/

Don't let Dan talk you into stocking anything else and don't let him change your stocking numbers. DON'T stock Hybrid Bluegills either. The only thing I'd do if possible is increase the FHM numbers 2x or 3x, but first find out if they are farm raised or wild caught FHM. If wild caught, you should sort through them to make sure you have 100% fatheads and no bullheads, common carp, bluegill or other fish that you don't want to go in the pond. You only have one chance to do it right without having to push the reset button.

The FHM are the only things that the SMB will have to eat, and Dan's SMB aren't feed trained - at least none of the ones I've bought from him over the years have been pellet trained, no matter what he said............

Thanks for coming back and updating us!

One thing I may have started. When we were communicating about fellow pond boss member and SMB spawning guru Ron C from Michigan I missed that his last name was Crismon and not Crimson. I see in the above posts it is still Crimson and I wanted others to catch the difference. Hopefully Ron C comes back and keeps us posted on the great things he does at his ponds. I know he dug some more ponds this fall I believe for forage so we'll have to see how things go for him this spring.

He would be a good place to get fish which would be a bit closer to you than Laggis.

If you find a way to get pumpkinseed for sure get them. Outside of catching them in a few local lakes I don't know another place around SW or Central MI that advertises that they sell them.

If you find a source for RES let me know please! I tried to get RES established but only could source a small number and although they were recaught the next summer they never were seen after that so they may have not survived the next winter.

Where I am RES are not likely to overwinter very well but there are several good MI DNR papers where lakes in central lower MI had successful stocking of RES and they survived. With more mild winters lately I'd love to try again. I almost feel like our winter is over here and they say the Great Lakes have peaked on ice and it will be less ice form here on out which seems impossible but so it goes.

I started with 100 stockers from Laggis and they were great YP with good genetics and they survived very well in my small pond.

Share pictures if you can figure out how to resize to 2mb or less and use the upload manager to attach them.

If you haven't added fatheads yet, I would be adding them now (assuming you are very confident at identifying them) by the dozen from bait stores, and then 20-40 lbs of adults as soon as available to you.

I would maybe add a small amount of predator fish in the Fall '24, followed by another predator stocking of greater numbers in Spring '25.

I would label Yellow Perch as more of a predator fish early on in this example.

Sunil- Nothing has been stocked at all yet. So you are saying add 20-40lbs of fatheads now? I didn’t know if they would spawn in temps this low and I figure I would just lose more with the low temps than it’s worth. I guess they would live in the cold water just like any other northern fish- not sure what my thought process was there. They are farmed raised.

Canyon creek there is a lake not to far from me that supposedly has res in it according to a link that I saw last year. I might try to catch some this spring/summer if I can find the time.

Esshup- you said don’t let dan change your numbers. Do you think what I have planned is good # then? 100 perch/25 sm. Should I stock as soon as they are available?

Would anyone happen to know conversion of pounds to gallons when it comes to fhm? Where I get them it would be by the gallon. I would guess similar to water. 8lbs/gallon so 4-5gallons of them

Josh, for now, and this is just me, I would be going to bait stores and buying dozens of fathead minnows to stock in the pond (again, making certain that you know what a fathead is, and can tell if they are not fatheads). This is because of the joy of stocking fish.

Then, in a few months, when you can source 20-40 lbs of adult fatheads, I would do that too.

When the water temps get close to 70 degrees, all the fatheads should start spawning, about every 2 weeks. I'd let this happen all summer long without any predator fish.

Josh, yes, your numbers look good. JKB posted here on the forum a few years ago the conversion from gallon to pound that EWEST had posted previously. Here is that thread: https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=210910

Cliff notes are:
FHM sizes & #/gal and #/lb
Small 5920/gallon 740/pound
Medium 2400/gallon 300/pound
large 1200/gallon 150/pound



CC, I typically drive to Byron Center to give a guy 30-40 pounds of Tilapia every May. I usually have RES by then. I can only source Pumpkinseeds by catching them. The plan is to dig a small pond to raise them, but I first need to get permission from the county to do so. I can dig a pond without permission for personal use, but have to get permission to sell fish that are raised in it. The county says that they have to do a zoning variance..............

Esshup- I was looking for tilapia around here. I’m prob won’t do this spring but can you get more when you come up this way if I were ever interested? I think CC was possibly looking for them too.

I might be interested in some RES this year too.

And thanks for that lbs/gallon link exactly what I was looking for!

So my minnow guy is going to get me a gallon or 2 of fhm to put in now. He also said he has some emerald shiners to get rid of if I wanted any. I was doing some reading on here that if they are true emerald shiners(seem fairly easy to identify from one of bills posts) then chances are that they will not reproduce and will not get bigger than 4-5inches. Would you be concerned about putting them in with no predator fish? I know if they are GSH they would prob grow to big to be eaten once I get my predators in.

Not an expert here but if they turned out to be GSH instead of Emeralds would a recurring spawn of GSH to keep the food chain active with minnows be a bad thing?

GSH are a pretty valuable addition to a pond, but in my opinion, there are many pluses and minuses that should be understood before stocking them.

If I were Josh, I'd go only with fatheads right now.

I am having 4gallons of fatheads and 1 gallon of emerald shiners dropped off today. I won’t be home to sort thru them but he says they are true emeralds and all farm raised fatheads.

Somewhere online I saw a chart that had the various lenth/size of FHM and then a correlating number of fish per pound. Usually it is somewhere between 200 and 300 FHM per pound. Of course with a empty pond it is easier to pay for less up front and let them have 2-3 spawning cycles over the course of a summer. With lots of spawning substrate (flat floating objects that they can lay eggs to the underside) you will have exponential growth with no more money out of your pocket.

Bill Cody wrote this reply to someone about in your same situation.

======As usual it ALL DEPENDS. It depends on how big the FHM are. Huge numbers/lb if they are hatchlings not so many if they are old breeders, which in the north, in the spring, most sold are older fish of 2.2"-3" usually 250 to 150/lb depending on FHM length. Plan on 200-250 per lb. In the fall new crop FHM are usually somewhat smaller 1.7-2.2" and 350-250/lb,

If you are going to stock FHM in spring in a new pond with just YP fingerlings 3"-4" plan on at least 8-10 lb per acre. Fingerling YP will not eat adult FHM until the YP get 6"-9"; depending on if YP are 'on pellets' and if YOY FHM are present. YP if given a choice at 6"-9" prefer the 1"-1.5" minnow. If you stock some YP at 4"-6" or 6"-8" add a few more FHM to allow for predation. Without significant submerged weed cover FHM will usually not thrive more than 2-3 yrs with soley YP as predators, shorter time if other predators are present.

It would be good if you can also establish a 2nd or 3rd prey item because FHM will not last long in a pond with YP And SMB. One way to maintain forage fish longer is to keep the YP and SMB at lower numbers thus they do not consume as many fish. Or if you can use pellet trained YP and feed them pellets that also helps reduce the predatory pressure on the FHM. Crayfish with rock piles are a good food item to stock early before SMB are adults. Some marginal or submerged weeds (10%-25%) can be beneficial as cover and extending the life span for small forage fish.

Establishing golden shiners is another possibility, although I am not a big fan of GSH if 'bobber fishing' is planned. Larger GSH are bait stealers and a nuisance. I have seen in some ponds where YP, SMB and a few HBG work okay esp if pellets are fed. Establish YP & HBG in spring and SMB in fall or the next year.

See if you can get pictures of the emerald shiners including a good closeup with the fins outstretched on a light background. Would be ideal to help us see what type they are. How did you get someone to drop off/deliver? I would love to source emerald shiners so eager to hear (private message me if you prefer)

BC on Emerald Shiners

I didn't know what Emerald Shiners were so I put Google to the task of helping me learn a little. Interestingly, I bumped into the above in my search.

Unless something has changed, or somebody has unlocked the magic of making these guys spawn in ponds.....

Food for thought...

Here’s one pic. I can’t get the other to load. I was in a hurry tonight so I just found a dead one stuck in the ice and snapped a quick pic. I could see a few shiners and fatheads swimming around under the ice. I’ll see if I can get a better pic and check the anal fin tomorrow after reading one of bills old posts. Said emeralds should have 11 anal fins.

Yeah I was aware they prob wouldn’t spawn, but they were extremely cheap so I figured I’d put some in and if they survive it will just give some additional food once I stock.

They do have 11 anal fins. So I believe they are emeralds. Couldn’t get a close up with the fins stretched out

If you figure out a way to keep the water moving in one area you might be able to encourage them to make babies!!

Minnows in the pictures look like emerald shiner to me. Notice the large eye and somewhat larger scales. You should know by next September if the emeralds spawned. Young of year(YOY) should be 1.5" long and easy to tell if they are emerald or fatheads.

One gallon of FHM would have been enough to populate your 0.4 -0.5 ac if you have good spawning habitat and don't put in the SMB predators until fall. Laggis Perch (4"=6") are okay to stock in April or May. Feed the high quality pellets and those YP could be 8"-10" by October.

Thanks for confirming Bill! I actually only ended up with .4 acre pond. I had planned to stock yp and sm this spring. Do you think that will be ok? I actually had about 4.5gallons of fatheads and 1 lbs of emeral shiners put in earlier this week. I could prob get more fhm this spring when I stock if needed. I would also like to put in crayfish as well. Seems like the best place for those was to have them shipped out of NY(I’ll have to find the company name again). Should I stock those after the predators or before? I won’t have any plants or anything established yet either.

We were typing at the same time. Reread my prior post. You don't need any more FHM. I don't think Laggis will have any SMB this spring - sells out in fall.

If you decide to get some NY crayfish you won't need very many (50-200) to get them established if you have some decent rocky cover / habitat. The crays will eat the FA growing on the rocky areas.

If you feed pellets to the YP from Laggis they will not eat very many FHM and you will be amazed how many FHM you have by Fall without SMB to eat them. Laggis' YP come from a very good Ohio grower with premium YP where I get my YP. Often I am there when Laggis is or was just there in late March. If you feed the YP very good pellets some will grow to 13"-14" with a few 15" if you don't eat them first.

The caveat to stocking crayfish before getting any plants established in the pond is that it will be very difficult to get plants established in the pond once the crayfish are in there. My advice is to stock the number of them that Bill recommended, BUT do whatever you can do to get underwater plants established this late Spring, and stock the crays in the early Fall.

I have this exact problem with my pond. Stocked crays before plants were established, coupled with a decent amount of rocky cover, now I can't get plants to grow.

I wish my Crawfish would get to cutting down on my underwater vegetation. Between them, my KOI and my Grass carp they aren't even putting a dent in it

Thank you I will hold off until fall on the crayfish and prob sm(Leggis didn’t say anything about only available in fall when I spoke to him last week)