Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Smallmouth?

Hello there, I hope everyone is well. My grand daughter caught this fella cruising about with a pack of shiners over the weekend. I only put 4 smallmouth in the pond so my expectations were not to really see anymore than just that (could have all been one sex and getting them isn't easy at the hatchery - or cheap). It's no shiner though so looking for confirmation or correction.

Probably important to note, I did not stock any LMB.

That is a nice juvenile smallmouth. If all four survived it is highly likely there is at least one male and one female. If it gets lots of food the rest of the year it could spawn in early May 2023. Otherwise a spawn will occur spring 2024. Now you know they will survive, You might want to buy 4-6 more this fall to get a second year class. Did you get the fingerlings from Fenders?

Hello Bill, Those I was only able to get from Jones' - there were simply none available when I did the initial stocking from Fenders. Very surprised to see a yearling (or so) I guess there's a "couple" in there somewhere but when they went in maybe 6in. I reserved another 8 with Fenders a month or two ago and feel pretty good with the Perch/SMB combo going forward.

Thanks for confirming and all your advice. I hope you're well and ready for some fall temperatures.

There simply may not be any better life experience than a smallie spawn in your own pond.

Sunil - I was shocked when she pulled it out! The original 4 are very seldom seen and not in any way interested in being caught ever again. Every now and again while mowing I'll see one really high in the water just chugging along without a care in the world but had gotten to the point where I figured I was seeing the same (and only) survivor. Then a 5yr old with a princess pole fishing in a foot of water pulled that little guy out, I had to post because it didn't seem possible. Hoping more made it because that's beyond HBG eating stage - at least the ones in my pond - the hybrid stripers may have at them but I don't think for much longer and there's plenty of easier minnows to eat along with pellets.

Very cool, very impressed with all the knowledge given here!

On a side note here.. my expectations were to see hit and miss spawns from my SMB.. what I have observed is not what I had anticipated. What I thought may possibly be unfavorable spawning conditions have shown me I don't know Jack about SMB.
If they are "in" the water, it is highly likely they will pull off a spawn. Recruitment may be a different story but reproduction occurs in conditions the "books" say they won't reproduce in...

Me either, but I don't care if it was a "fleeting affair" or just "friends with benefits" - just happy to see the BOW supports them and look forward to seeing them grow up!

With the pond being new with minnows/shiners the 1st stocking and with a few SMB in the 2nd stocking you should have the best SMB growth possible in your region based in the fish's genetics. Expect the first 4 to be 10"-11" by next fall 2023. .

Just think how much fun those SMB will be next year for a 6-year-old with a princess pole!

Right, little girls with absolutely "inadequate gear" and a worm always manage to catch the fish that we have entire tackle boxes, rods and reels dedicated to catch.

It is the way and it cannot be altered.

I have caught a bunch of those, and smaller, with a tiny jig hook and Gulp Alive green waxies for bait. I could actually see them in shallow water hunting in packs of a few along the bank, toss the jig in and watch them follow it up and strike. I have stocked three other ponds by catching many that way and transferring them to my other ponds. Anywhere from about 4" up to 6" in size. Figured most of them would just get eaten when we transferred them, but we can catch SMB regularly in the ponds we transferred them into so I guess many survived. Mine were all recruits from my original SMB spawning. I've had them spawn and reproduce every year up until this year. This year I don't know because I have not been around that pond that much and have not fished for the small ones. But I see no reason there is not another crop of them out there. They have been very prolific in my SMB/RES only pond. This year could be different though as I stocked quite a few HSB so they may have had an impact on the recruitment of the SMB spawn.

I enjoy catching tiny fish. Man those little SMB can flip a hook in a heartbeat. I would pull them right in as soon as they struck because about a third of the time they would throw the hook by the time I got them to the bank and would have to pick them up off the ground.

They are fighters. In a couple of years if things go well, you may have lots of small SMB.

This is my old thread about my SMB/RES pond. It started out as a RES only pond but in the first year I decided to add SMB. Probably two or three pages in before the SMB stuff starts.

My RES/SMB dedicated pond

I had been just trapping crawfish from local creeks when time provided but I guess next spring I'll have to find a place that delivers (and isn't out of stock within seconds).

Very fun, appreciate everything learned and will continue to update.

We were able to get out in between the rains this weekend and feed with actual eyesight and there's a few more SM in there than I thought. There seems to be a solid 10 or 12 feeding in the 5-7in range which is really cool, double cool they've taken to pellets or just learned from the perch "eat while you can". They stay very close to shore in the grasses though so my guess is they know the stripers exist or are just careful. I still plan on grabbing the farm raised ones from Fenders if he has them this fall, maybe some over winter FHM but other than that going to let it ride.

So far so good, thanks to you all and I hope you had a nice Labor Day.

I just stumbled across this thread. I have a 2/3 acre pond that is fairly deep (17' at deepest). I take regular trips to the Boundary Waters to fish for smallmouth.
I am in SE Iowa and the state recommends only LMB , bluegill, and channel cat, so that is what I have stocked. The pond is aerated and the highest water temperature I have had this summer is 82* at the surface. I would love to be able to have a smallmouth population in my pond for the fishing excitement ( 10 grandkids from less than a year to 13). Any advice about this possibility?

Howie, if you can put in smallies that are larger than what your current LMB population can eat, then you can have the smallies. They just might not thrive, and you might have to continually stock them every year, or every few years. Smallies seem to eventually fade away in smaller waters where LMB are present.

I wish I could tell you Howie, I stocked perch, some hybrid bluegill, hybrid stripers, some redear and 4 lone smallmouth. No LMB or catfish, really just a panfish pond with a 5-7in max for the initial stocking. So far the perch/HBG look great and the hybrid stripers are a lot of fun, feeding is nuts. I've never seen the smallmouth spawn (heck never seen them much period) in the pond before this year but they are going now so it's an experiment.

To be fair I stocked fatheads and shiners for around 8mo before adding the "attendees". Not so much due to choice just had things to do.

I have seen here that SMB will not thrive with LMB or BG. My SMB are doing well with YP, GSH, RES, FHM , and lake chubsuckers in a 0.9 acre pond. I have multiple age classes due to spawning. I did provide spawning structure as recommended here. I moved 9 smaller SMB to my LMB/BG pond in the hopes that they might provide bonus catches, but I do not expect reproduction with LMB or BG. Wanted to thin out the SMB in the source pond due to how many are in there, even though they seem fat and happy. Great advice on this forum has really helped me with my ponds. A big thank you once again!

Howie,
It bothers me that your state and my state (MI) still just push the standard stocking plan of LMB, BG and Catfish. Especially in northern ponds there is so much to gain from considering a minnow/YP/SMB combo or a minnow/HBG/YP/HSB/Walleye pond. For those who are OK with SMB being their apex predator along with perhaps HSB or another apex predator that does not reproduce, they can really have a great fishery. The kids still have fun catching the YP and SMB and the eating fare is still great.

Of course if you want catfish to eat then that is fine but at least here in MI if you talk to the biologist they seem to have a hard time grasping that there could be another option. I'm glad folks here have tried other combos and have been successful.

Dr. Luke follows the forum and has a pond in Iowa and could also give some state specific insights for you.

Could not agree more, canyon creek. Bill gave me a ton of advice in the beginning because I had no desire for a LMB pond, nothing wrong with them but I'd rather have something different. I just followed instructions and it seems to be working!

Love it.

There are options. With LMB and SMB in the same waters then the LMB almost always out compete the SMB with respect to foraging and reproduction. Sunil provided a good choice above for stocking advanced size SMB which should do well with enough forage present. The SMB likely will not be able to sustain reproduction and offspring over the long term with LMB present.

Curious RAH, how many years have you had SMB spawning? I'm in no way in a place where stunting would occur yet but just would like a reference so I can keep an eye on things.

I am in at least 6 years since stocking SMB and think they likely have been spawning for at least 4 years. If my friends or neighbors ever pull out any thin ones, then I'll try to remove more. I have 2 newish ponds with no top predators and also a BG/LMB pond, so I can always find a home for some. If anyone nearby wants 5-10 small SMB for their pond, drop me a message. I think that I can spare them. Only started with 20 stockers in a 0.9 acre pond stocked at 10 per year in consecutive years (from 2 different hatcheries).

Well this took a turn for the ... better? The first year SM spawn all look pretty good, somewhere in the 6-8in range and this year another round. I'm not sure when it becomes "too many" and who knows how many will survive but SM most certainly will spawn in a southern Ohio, clay bottom pond with some structure. Of the original 4 I see one coming up at feeding time that looks to be around 15-16in, all the little guy & gals under 8in take pellets no issue.

Seems to be thriving at this point, thanks for all of the help!

Yeah, SMB are reproducing in TJ's Lepomis pond which is clay bottom.. Producing in my BG pond where I had a few escaped fry..
The "rules" on SMB have not been well researched in recent years by state agencies because it's against what they were taught.

Guess the smallies didn’t get the memo

Surely we can get Lusk to send out complimentary subscriptions of Pond Boss Magazine to a few select groups of smallmouth bass!

I think that is reserved for the first person to get SMB to reproduce in a clay bottomed, no structure pond while in prison.

Well I haven't heard from TJ in awhile...???

Bill Cody advised they would be fine but when all I could find was the 4 originals at 8 bucks a piece it was a "well you never know" purchase.

I know now, Bill was 100% correct, the offspring didn't take long to figure out "follow the crowd for free food". The originals are never really seen, maybe 2-3 times a year I'll get a glimpse when mowing or feeding but they seem hook shy without ever being hooked.

Fine by me, love having the addition and worth the money because "maybe someone will hook one" is always fun.

Yep.

Hopefully in a few years you can post a pic of a young person grinning ear-to-ear with a 4.5# smallie!

I have a small SMB/YP/RES clay bottom pond in central ohio. Originally stocked with 15 SMB, May 2019, I now have a 'bunch' of SMB. Last night I was messing around w/ a dropshot using a 3" berkly power minnow and caught severfal SMB in the 6-8" range (I assume those are last years fish?)

My question is how do you know when it's time to start culling and which fish do I cull? I know my stockers from 2019 are now around 14". I had one hooked last night but lost it before I could measure and weigh. The 6-8" fish seem quite healthy with rounded bellies. I still see plenty of forage in the pond, adding Golden Shiners seems to have helped w/ the forage base.

I've read that any LMB under 12" to cull, but given the slow growth rates of SMB, can the same be applied w/ success?

SMB are not slow growers in general. They will grow substantially faster than literature says if they have plenty of the correct size forage and decent conditions to include water temp.
The smaller fish indicate they have ample forage for a 6-8" fish but how much of the lower end of the food chain are they removing such that few forage items grow through to feed larger SMB?
A 4 year old SMB on adequate forage should be more than 1.2lbs other than in the most Northern locations.
A lot of the culling process is dependent of what you goal is with this fishery. If large SMB is your goal, we might be in trouble already.
If lots of SMB is your goal, then start pulling a few when they hit 14-16".. You probably need to pull a few 4-10" fish every year depending on pond size. But remember, a 8-10" SMB is sexually mature in most cases so you always need a few.
It would really help a lot to know the size of your pond. Based on 15 original stockers I don't want to recommend something that isn't in line with your desired goal.

bcraley, how big were your initial SMB stockers in 2019?

If they are 14" now, it does seem a tad on the smaller size, but like Snipe is saying, more details are needed to make better recommendations.

Pond is 1/3 acre w/ aeration and emergent plants. The SMB were 3-4" fingerlings in 2019 when I stocked them. I have low visibility during warm weather months, as in less than a foot, due to my 3 dogs constantly stirring the bottom off the pond. Which I believe to be a negative factor for growth rates SMB, but it is what it is as the pond is for enjoyment of the whole family. We hand feed MVP nightly, which the perch and some of the small SMB take.

YP, RES, GS and FH were also stocked. I have a healthy population of GS of all sizes and I think FH, but I need to get the minnow trap out and confirm. I admittedly haven't been very attentive to measuring and weighing fish as time has been limited the past two years. But I've been able to reclaim some of my time and I want to get back to active management.

My goal is to have 12-16" SMB. I'm not looking to grow difficult to catch trophies, but just a fun fishing pond that has healthy fish. So when friends want to fish, they catch... not just drown a worm.

I like your plants, what kind are those, did you plant them? I'm planning on putting in some american pondweed in my pond soon, hoping to pick them up this weekend.

bcraley, thanks for the further information. Water clarity may have had some impact on the growth of your 2019 SMB. They also may not have had ample forage to grow to their potential.

In my experience, I've found that SMB readily take to feed, so it's a bit odd that you only have smaller SMB hitting it. You could consider implementing a larger size feed to help boost some growth rates; this could 'force' a few fish into larger size classes that could change some dynamics in your pond.

Eastland - The stuff w/ the purple flowers is Pickerelweed. I introduced it 2 years ago via 6 plugs that I ordered from an online source. I introduced duck potato at the same time but that didn't' take. The Pickerelweed has spread, but only in the very shallow areas. I'm in the process of killing off cattails in hope that the pickerelweed will fill in some of the areas that cattails are now occupying.

Sunil - Short of removing SMB (which I'm looking for suggestions on a culling plan based on my above goals), how would I supplement the forage base to have ample forage for the SMB to grow. Given I have established populations of YP, GS and RES?

Also when you say larger feed, MVP has several sizes. Are you suggesting jumping up to a much larger pellet like the largemouth bass size feed from AquaMax?

The bottom line is you can only have so many pounds of fish in "X" amount of water.
SMB of some number-usually very few-will eat pellets unless they were well trained when young. LMB seem to learn much faster as wild fish than SMB do.
If the water temp is 75-85 on the surface and you have 120-140 days between 50 going up and hitting 50 on the way down, your problem is the correct size/type of forage in good to great numbers is just not there.

I haven’t been to my place recently. Temps are averaging about 106. Yep, averaging. By the time I leave Fort Worth and 1.5 hrs drive there, I don’t want to go check on ponds. My trailer house is uninhabitable for about 3 hours. Riding around on a 4 wheeler with one pond being a little over a mile away isn’t my idea of a nice day.

I’m pretty well stuck in Fort Worth.

BCRALEY if you still recall the online source for pickerelweed plugs I'm still interested in trying it. I tried 'hatching seeds' over the winter and a few sprouted but none made it past the sprout stage. Looks like 'plugs' or small plants go for $12-$15 before shipping.

One site has 3 varieties of pickerel rush with pink, purple or blue-ish flowers to pick from.

I have had real good luck with Kester's.. been using their plant products for 4 years and have been really great.
Tip on arrowhead: fill a clear plastic 5-10gal container with pond water, add a pinch of miracle grow and set outside for 3-4 days in the sun, then put duck potato's (arrowhead) bulbs in there. Roots and stems will start, then plant in mud 4-8" deep..

https://www.kestersnursery.com/plant_price_list.htm

canyoncreek - I used https://pondmegastore.com/ for my arrowhead and pickerelweed. I remember that their pricing seemed high but not terrible. And as mentioned the pickerelweed has done very well.

canyoncreek, I just ordered this yesterday, best prices I have seen. We'll see how it goes!

https://www.etsy.com/listing/137189...1-1&bes=1&organic_search_click=1

I got a flat of 72 plants Pickerel from Wicklein's Native Plants [url=http://wickleinsnativeplants.com], at a reasonable price for a non-wholesale customer (charged an additional $0.50 per plant vs. wholesale for the flats). They looked good when the package arrived and have done pretty well in my pond. I also bought Iris from them.

Thanks for the helpful advice! DrewSh you are right, that is a fabulous price, about $1 each!

I'd like to try the pickerel rush but I have a pair of strongly foraging ducks working the perimeter of my pond night and day. It sounds like I might need to plant them in one area and then fence it off?

how deep do you plant the pickerel weed and can I plant them right away in the pond or must I prepare pots to let them get bigger first?

Snipe I'd like to see if I can get arrowhead tubers to grow as well but again not sure it would stand a chance with the duck action digging and foraging all around the pond.

In June, I planted 10 small (about 6 inches long) pickerel weed plants with rhizomes. I just made a hole in the muck with my finger and stuck the plant in it, as is, in about 6 inches of water. 8 of 10 plants seemed to survive and are now growing nicely with large leaves and developing blooms.

Ditch the ducks. They really make a mess in the pond, suspended sediment, etc., etc.

HA! The two (just determined one male, one female but couldn't tell before) ducks have been fabulous in every other way so far and they are the beloved prized pets of my daughter. There will be lots of tears if one or both disappear.

I have a thread post in my mind with pictures planned to describe to all of you fellow PondBoss readers our journey from baby ducks to the present and all the good and bad along the way.

Who would have thought they would be the best solution yet for my thousands of trapdoor snails!!

I understand, "Flying Toilets" . We had a pair of geese, Canada's, select a small Island in our lower pond , nest and hatch 4 goslings. Daughter spotted Momma on nest before me . Or daughter would not have seen . We have more pictures of the 4 Goslings than the daughters 3rd child . Tears when turtles got 2 of the 4 (turtles moved right out of daughters top 10 animal parade ) . Daughter is 46 yoa,I could foretell the tears if I "ditched" the geese . ( And where Dad would be on Daughters top 10 animal parade ) Keep the Ducks, a lot of poo is worth being daughters hero, rather than being a pile of poo . No matter daughters age. Just my honest opinion.

Thanks for the link Drew, I ordered just after you did, they arrived today in great shape, much appreciated! I'll be putting them in 3" pots this evening, then dropping them into the pond in about 10 days on my next trip out.

Same! Mine just came as well and are 16”! These are a lot better than I was expecting, I’m glad you jumped on some too! That seller had a white variety as well I may get down the road.