Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Building a dam Permit? Corp of Eng?

I am currently looking at a piece of land in NE Georgia that has a 25 acre lake/pond on it. It was apparently built about 2 years ago by putting a dam along the creek that runs through the property. As far as I know, no digging or other modification to the landscape was done.

When I asked the realtor about a permit for the pond, I was told that the Corp of Eng only has to be involved if the dam is higher than 25ft and that this dam is only about 15ft.

This all sounds a little shakey to me. I don't want to by a piece of land and then have the Corp of Eng come after me. Yet, I'm not ready to call the Corp and ask them about this pond because I'm not really interested in stirring things up at this point.

Does anyone have a good feel for what the general rules are as far as the Corp of Eng is concerned?

Thanks for your help,
cindy

Cindy,

Welcome to Pond Boss! You couldn't have touched on a more controversial topic than the ACoE. Here are some links for a primer.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001327#000011

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001601#000003

I'm sure others will chime in when they see the topic.

Russ

Cindy, read the threads Russ suggested. Also call or e-mail the PB office & ask for the publication where Mike Otto addressed the issue.

If you really are intrested in the prop. go to the local Soil Conservation office & check if the pond is legit. Our local SC people came out & surveyed for my pond & checked soils. They also told me about the 25' rule. However they said if it was over 25' AND backed up 10ac of water OR if there was something downstream such as a dewling the ACoE would have to be involved & would require an engineer to design the dam.

In Illinois, I recall the break-point as being a 25 ft dam OR 50 acre-feet of retention at normal pool...? The "over 25'dam" scenario would require a state registered engineer for construction and yearly maint checks by a state reg. engineer. I think the 50 acre-feet limit only precludes participation by the NRCS for construction assistance.

DON'T DO IT !!!

Who would have guessed that I would chime in here???

Be a friend to your local NRCS agent, but DO NOT call the ACoE!!!

Just my humble opinion.

Thanks for all the input, it is very helpful.

After reading through the suggested posts, I have a few questions. Someone mentioned that the law changed in 2002. What about it changed?

The only reason I believe the pond was built 2 years ago is because that is what the realtor told me. It is possible that he doesn't really know. The arial photos of the area are from 1999 and clearly there is no pond.

The stream that is dammed flows into a larger creek, which I don't believe is navigatable. I assume this because the bridge that is a few hundred yards upstream is so low that you could never get under it in a boat. (does this matter?) This larger creek then flows into a very large river that is navigatable, no question about it. Would any of this make a difference in the legality of the dam?

Suppose that the current owner didn't go through the permit process but should have. Does anyone have any idea what my responsibilty is if I then buy it? This whole thing has started me wondering if many of these ponds out there are not legal. But I wonder if any governement agency is out there activily trying to enforce these laws.

Thanks again for all the input, this site has been very educational.

I built a Pond in the Northeast part of Georgia as well. About two years ago. YES!!! I have a 404 permit for mine! That is hog wash what the realter told you. I have been at this thing for over 8 years now and can tell you very few people know what it takes to # 1. build a pond, # 2. getting it permitted, #3. stocking it. You will be suprised how very little these people who even live in the rual part of the state know.

the answer is YES!!! you have to have a 404 permitt, YES!!
But, very few people get one and the Core never catches them. If you want send me a message on where it is and who has it and I can check it out for you. I know just about every thing that goes on in this area, trust me.

It does not matter if the waters are navigable. You still either have to have a 404 permit or a Farming Ag exemption. You are right most of these ponds have not gone through the CORE at all. They just put up a dam, and the core has NOT enforced the issue, but they very well could! We have built several lakes and all the ones we built either had a farming exemptions OR it had a 404 permit associated with it.

What can the core make you do even though the previous owner built the Dam? They can make you just simply tare it down.

I can tell you need to look at some topo maps of where this thing is. I can tell you the way the topography is in this region it is VERY tough to build a lake over 8 acres with out intruding on some wet land laws. You also said the dam was less than 25 feet tall too? Sound awful suspicious to me. Again, you need to look at the topo maps for any swamp land or wet lands, or any signs of beaver ponds or swamps. These are big red flags for getting into litigation issues with the CORE and you could be in BIGG trouble!!

Send me a PM as to where this lake is and to who the realtor is and let me take a look at it.

In 1992 the law changed to include anything that is defined as "navigable". OK, that doesn't sound so bad. You're 250 miles from any water that has a barge in it, right?

Wrong. If your water ever finds its way to the Gulf of Mexico, Atlantic, Pacific, Mississippi River, Rio Grande, Chattahoochee, or any other real water, then your water is navigable.

Doesn't this make my gutters and downspouts "navigable"? And for that matter, by their definition, aren't my kidneys navigable?

Don't get a kidney stone, Jersey - you could be found guilty of damming navigable water.

I happened to get to visit with an NRCS fellow this past week. He quoted the facts to me that are current here in Ks. I'm recalling from memory, but think I can get close.
An ACOE permit was required if the drainage area was 600 acres or more in western Ks, 320 acres or more in central Ks, or 240 acres or more in eastern Ks. The permit is required if the site involves a wetland or is in a flood plain.
A DWR permit is required for a dam 25 ft tall or more, and/or if the structure will dam up 50 acre ft of water or more (figured to the top of dam, not to the principal spillway).

Cindy,
We are in Texas so things are a little different here as far as rules from the NRCS (SCS) goes. But I would definately go to them first. Their job is to help you as a landowner and most of the guys I have dealt with at the NRCS are friendly and cooperative. They will be able to answer your questions as far as engineering the dam goes and what ramifications your pond and dam may have on people downstream. This is your first and most important step - nothing will matter with the Corps if the NRCS determines that your dam structure is inadequately designed and poses a threat to downstream property owners or structures.

The Corps is a different issue. Navigable waters are very generally defined as anything that shows up as a blue line on a USGS map (they will have this at the NRCS office). If your pond is on a stream that shows up as a blue line on the USGS map it will be determined jurisdictional by the Corps. The problem you are encountering is the fact that you may be held liable for someone else's mistakes. I will tell you in my experience with the Corps (and I have had my share here in Texas) they will not come after you unless someone complains - even then those people will have to complain A LOT in order to get them to act. I am not advocating not following the rules - I am an engineer - I really like rules .

I just want you to understand that in my experience your level of risk of being investigated by the Corps is slim to none - especially if the pond has been there for two years already. Also, an unwritten rule of thumb is that a condition has to exist for five years before the Corps will consider that condition the "existing condition". You are half-way there. I have taken the Corps wetland certification class and what they will do if they ever come to check your pond out is they will look back at historical aerials and determine how long that pond has been in existence. If they find that it has been there for five years or more - then you are in the clear.

If you have more questions or want to email me directly you can reach me at emily@pondmedics.com.

Hope this helps! Good Luck!
Emily Lewis P.E.

Cindy,
I bet this pond is in Wilkes County isn't it....That were all the lakes this size was built in the last two years...

I attended a property rights seminar by two U of I law professors, IDNR officer, state's attorney, sheriff, etc. I then did some additional checking. My county in Illinois has very little water deemed navigable. None of which is near my lake. You might do some discreet checking (i.e. ask someone about obtaining a map of navigable waters without mentioning the pond).

Jersey,

How much longer do we all have to wait to hear the story behind your pond adventure??

Dr Jersey submits an epiphany:
this hypothetical conclusion, followed by the known:
all supported by the conclusive NOAA document:

...proves once again the high level on intellect collected on one forum can be overwhelming! Lewis and Clark would be proud!

So I was right!!! The line from the kidney to the bladder is blue!!!

I told my tale at the World Pond Boss Event in Atlanta. Shoulda been there. I won't publish it until I am posting pictures of the dozers.