Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Agacultural Lime to stop leaking?

I called and talked to Kenneth Williams, the guy that wrote that article "Stopping Leaks in Ponds" from Langston University.

While we were dicussing his article he said that you can even use agacultural lime to stop leaks in ponds using the sprikle method.

He said spread it 6" thick over the area needing to be sealed. He said that the lime's small particles and filler which is often types of clay, can work like bentonite without the expansion properties.

This sounds like a much less exspensive option than bentonite.

Does anybody here have nay ideas about this or have heard of this being done?

What do I think...honestly, I wonder if this guy knows what he is talking about, or if he has ever seen a real pond dam leak.

I use agracultural lime in all my ponds and my hay fields and pastures...I've never seen clay in it nor do I believe it would stop a leak in anything.

But I am open minded on the subject

scsims, sir I don't know as much as any of these guys, but I have seen ag lime and spread some too and I don't think it would expand much to plug anything.

I did find where there are some Barite mines in KY. The haul bill on bentonite would cost more than the bentonite alone, but if the Barite is similiarly priced and is better, well the haul bill would be a whole lot less for you than bentonite. Check out google and type in "Barite Kentucky".

scsims :

I don't know if lime will work. On several posts over the last few days the use of drilling mud has been discussed . See -- Pellettized bentonite - and -- I think I will jump off the dam - or one of your prior posts on the subject. In one or more this matter has been addressed . I note that PO in one or two posts noted that he fixed his problem with a few bags at 10-12 dollars per bag - under $ 200 . After looking at the pics of your pond I think you could do the same unless you have a major rock fracture . Based on your water loss I don't think that is the case. I have also fixed ponds this way. I hope this helps. ewest

Leaky & Scsims & others interested in leaks,

There has been a lot of good discussion this week on the topic of pond leaks. However, out of necessity that discussion has been of the nature of generalizations, and generalizations may or may not work in your situation.

More specifically, ponds are not at all like oil wells...think about it. A pond leak, generally is not in one small spot, or hole, it is the result of insufficient clay over a sometimes relatively large sloping area, certainly in comparison to an oil well.

Even the folks who "mine" sodium bentonite here in Texas will tell you that fixing a pond dam leak is not easy...certainly not as easy as just dumping out a couple of bags of bentonite or my goodness ag lime. I don't question that may have worked for someone sometime, but it is not the general solution.

The bentonite folks will tell you straight out, you need a tractor and a spreader and tons of material to fix most leaks in a pond dam. It would be wonderful if we could just dump a couple of bags for $20 bucks and fix these problems, but it just isn't so most of the time.

This note is about expectations...your leaks may be easy to fix, maybe even with a couple of bags of ag lime, but you should expect a much more difficult time than that. Unfortunately, it just isn't that easy in many cases.

ML and others :

Like you I don't want persons who have leaks to think fixing them is always easy. However I would try a $200 fix as suggested before I drained my lake and spent thousands {5000 as scsims noted} on trucking in bentonite ,not to mention the fish and the down time while the pond bottom dried, was worked on and refilled.

Hydrostatic pressure applies to ponds as well as oil wells . In wells you often have holes 12in in dia. and 25000 feet deep under much more pressure than any pond. That is a large area {.47 acres} to keep leak free. Like a pond the entire area must be leak free not just one spot. In a well you treat the entire area all the time during drilling . Both deal with keeping water under pressure from penetrating into dirt , rock and sand . In ponds like oil wells bentonite {drilling mud} in solution migrates to the area of lowest pressure {the leak} and bonds with the rock ,dirt and sand to stop water loss.

The leaks as described by the posters sounded like specific areas to me not an overall lack of clay in the soil. In scsims case with a small pond you could treat the whole pond with 40 bags for $500 . The Pomdboss ad for one of the services shows a truck with a mud pumping unit pumping a liquid {looks like bentonite in solution} into a pond. That is just about what was suggested.

I think it is important for fourm members with questions to have as much info and options as they can. They seemed desperate to me { drain my pond/ jump off the dam}. What are their choices? Start over and spend a lot of money on a method that you noted may not work or what? There were no other options suggested so after thinking about it I and others gave them one that has worked and at much lower cost.

The general solution is have your dirt tested and treated if needed before you build . Having gone past that point there is no general solution other than fix it with bentonite or barite either your self or by an expensive service , that is unless you want to start over and maybe at a different location. I hope this clears up my prior posts. ewest

This has been a good discussion. In my book, a good discussion is one in which most or all sides of a question are explored and the pros and cons of each option are understood and presented for the parties to decide on a preferred course of action. Options are good.

Here’s an attempt to summarize/rank the options presented in order of ascending cost and overall desirability. I invite all to critique this summary.

1) First, cheapest, most desirable fix is to get the original contractor to fix the problem at no cost, or at least only cost of fuel.
2) Second, purchase a couple of bags of ag lime, bentonite, clay, or whatever you can find and dump that as close to the area in question as you can. Before doing, please make sure that by doing so you have not violated your warranty, implied or otherwise, which lets you do #1 above for no cost…estimated cost as low as $20
3) Third, hire a contractor to attempt to repair the leak by working on the external surfaces of the dam. This approach worked for me at virtually no cost, because I have a small dozer. For others, probably would cost no more than $500 and require less than 5 hours of dozer work. Involves no draining of existing pond water levels.
4) Fourth, follow the full up bentonite recommended program. If you have a tractor and spreader, then you are money ahead. If not, plan on hiring this done and also include the cost of transporting material to the site. Talk to the bentonite folks in Texas and they will tell you how to calculate the amount of material needed…it isn’t a couple of sacks, by the way. The research I have done shows this works in less than 50% of the cases…cost at a minimum will be $1000 and probably higher. No pond draining required.
5) Drain the pond; bring in equipment to fix the leak. Cost…you take a guess…probably $5000 minimum.

These are the options that have been discussed and I have attempted to summarize in order of preference. I welcome comments/critiques and thank all for the great discussion.

ML :

I agree this has been a good discussion. Options and info are good . So are different points of view .

Upon reflection I think a warning is due. Working with equipment { tractors , backhoes. and dozers } on inclined surfaces can be very dangerous. If the surface is wet or weak it is even more dangerous . If you have a dam that has water running out of a hole or breach be careful. It is better to pay for professional help than to be injured or killed . You can rebuild a dam and start over.

From my point of view there are two types of leaking pond problems. First where the dam is obviously leaking running water. Like a hole in the dam. The second where the pond bottom is leaking under or around the dam or there is minor sepage through the dam. Like a sand being to close to the surface of the pond bottom or there is a less than perfect seal on the dam. It was the second type of problem that I was addressing.

I like your list.

Number 1 is the best but often the hardest to get and only applies for a short period of time and if it is the contractors fault. I have never seen or heard of a written warranty against pond leakage. If it is an obvious defect in the dam maybe. Unless the builder just wants to protect his reputation good luck collecting. Not a high confidence level , if he could not do it right the first time why should I trust that he can fix it.

Number 2 is limited as noted above.

Number 3 I think has limited application. It involves working on the back side of the dam. It requires the owner to know what and where the problem is. I read your post when you did the work. Most pond owners could not do what you did and it can be dangerous for them if they don't know what they are doing. I have had very little success getting an operator to move in heavy equipment for a small {$500} job. If you can find one it turns into a $2500 job when the problem is not what they thought or the equipment gets stuck , if they find another problem it esclates further.

Number 4 is like number 2 but costs much more. This service is like what was dicussed in no. 2 the difference is you do the work and by the material.I would put the cost of 2 at $200 not $20. 4 involves pumping a solution of or broadcasting bentonite into the pond. I think nos. 2 and 4 work at a higher rate , say 70%. I think east of the Texas/La. line we see less pond leakage on a large scale. There may be more clay in the dirt in the eastern US.

Number 5 no comment except no one likes to lose their fish and the time to replace them.

Thanks for taking the time to make the list. It should help those in need. ewest

Just one point.
It doesn't appear that scsims post was thuroughly read. He stated:
Now I don't know this Kenneth Williams who scisims said authored the book Stopping Leaks in Ponds but this would seem to me to be a reasonable aproach considering:
1)We haven't read the book & don't know what type of leak he's refering to, and they're are many types.
2)Since most ponds will benifit from a lime aplication anyway & it's cheap, why not try it first rather than disreguard the idea out of hand?
3)Since I have not seen mention of this idea on this site & therefor don't believe anyone here has tried it should we just throw it aside as a fulton's folly ?

Rick,

I'd certainly like to hear of anyone who has tried this and found it to work. Yes, I'm very skeptical, but if indeed it did work, as you say, it would certainly be a good thing.

I can buy 25 tons of ag lime including the cost of spreading for about $700...and I usually do buy that much every other year...maybe the stuff you guys get is different, but this stuff, even 25 tons, I don't believe would stop any leak.

EWEST,

On one pond that I completely contracted out for, I had a 1 year warranty (hand shake) on the integrity of the dam and against leaks. I have no doubt that warranty would have been honored if necessary. Maybe that is unique to my area, but for sure, I would certainly ask for that in advance...having a leak isn't necessarily indicative of a poor contractor, in fact I bet it has happened to the best of them...it happened to me, but then I'm not in that class, let alone ever even made the school.

ML and RS :

I checked with a couple of my geologist buddies and they said that limestone from which agg. lime is made often has clay , sand . quartz , dirt and other stuff in it. They also thought that it would be hard to get these out unless you were talking about hydrated lime which is different. So I guess it might work depending on where the limestone came from and what else was in the limestone to start with. I don't think it would be my first or second or even third choice. But around here we could use the lime even if it didn't work.

ML I bet you do as good or better of a job with your ponds as anyone on this site. You are right that a pond can leak and it not be the contractors fault. I think that is why they won't give a written warranty. I have asked before and I thought they were going to laugh. But you are right about asking and I will keep asking. All the more reason to get a reputable contractor who takes pride in his work and reputation. We have a pond that we recently raised the dam on and it has , I think some minor sepage. Watching it to decide what to do if anything. Thanks--ewest