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Jersey quoted:

I still want to hear from ONE person who has built a pond on a stream, and applied for and received approval on a 404 permit. Just one.

Jersy I did get a 404 permit from the core of engineers, the only problem was that I built it on an intermeadite stream....meaning if we have NO rain for a period of time then...the streamwill STOP flowing...it took me a month to get this....But the draw back is after a year of GOOD raining my 9 1/2 acre pond is still 4 to 5 feet from the top, about 25 feet of water as of now....don't get me wrong the pond is 7 acres now...but it is supposed to be 9.5 acre full.

Now, I knew ALL about your troubles because I have looked at soo many tracts of land for years and the FIRST thing that comes to mind is getting a CORE permit...how would I do it..what would I have to do...ect....I truely know your pain .....The next Lake I build I KNOW for sure I will have to get a farm exemption of some sort...Unless the LORD has mercy on me and smiles on me again like he did before...

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BP, I knew you that got your permit. I thought you didn't need one being on an intermittent stream. What made you decide to get a permit? Could I get a copy of your application? PM me if you get a chance. Thanks.


Hey Moe, I'm trying to think but nuthin's happening!
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Jersey - Big_Pond, I also have a pond on a seasonal stream/creek that dries up mid summer for about 4 weeks or so, or until a heavy rain comes along. When asking if I needed the permit I was told by all including the ACOE that I did not. Now the interesting thing is that when the stream is running like it did the other day after a heavy thunder and rain storm it is running at about 300,000 to 600,000 gallons per hour. Not a small stream or small flow. Thank god I was told by all that I didn't need the permit to divert the creek into my pond and back out the back of it again.


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1/10 - 1/4 acre pond plus 16 ft deep/ Plus 40 ft by 20 ft by 6 ft deep koi and fathead minnow pond next to it. Upstate NY

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I got my designed by the NRCS...they told me I needed to get a 404 permit frm the army. They said even though I DID NOT have or get the permit they could still help any way...but I got mine ANY WAY cause I wanted to be safe....Now I am totally leagel...maybe we could meet some where and I can show it to you...It has the official Government US seal on it and tho WHOLE 9 yards....from the ARMY of DEFFENSE..

BTW are you from Social cirle?? there is a pond for sale out there now! It is about 5 to 6 acres in size. It is near that tire place, right behind the egg processing plant.

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BP,
I'm actually in Stone Mountain. I am going to build a house in Jersey once the pond is built. Actually, I may be building before then. Then I might have a flood if you know what I mean.


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Well why not sell what you have and move another 30 minutes out in some where like Oglethorpe County??? That way you can Have a WHOLE lot more and can build with out worrying about the core..Land in Walton county is about $15,000 per acre where as land in Oglethorpe County is $3,500 per acre!!!

I tell you for years I was looking in Walton County for a ponds or pond sights and could never find it. I tried and tried...could never afford it plus there were NEVER any lake sights there...that's what you might have to do....move to a different location...

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Two reasons. First, I work in northeast Atlanta, so I will already be at least an hour from work. Second, Walton county is still in America, last time I checked. I am starting to wonder about that though. It's not the county that is giving me the trouble, it's the feds. Actually it's the district engineer at the Corps, and Oglethorpe county is in the same district.


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Yeah but out in rual Oglethorpe you are bufferd from any Federal intrest....It is STILL Northeast atlanta area....Atlanta is growing SO FAST and property is going up in value almost 30 to 40 % a year, it will not be long for Oglethorpe to be like Walton....

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I know. But now we are back to hiding and hoping not to get caught. I can do that where I am. And why would I want to sell 66 acres that is going up 30-40% a year? If I build a pond on it it might go up 100% !!!


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An interesting read, and you don't have to be lawyer:

http://conlaw.usatoday.findlaw.com/supreme_court/briefs/01-1243/01-1243.mer.resp.pdf

Shows how far reaching the Corps can be and their actions were upheld by the Supreme Court.


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Oglethorpe county is going up 30 to 40% a year...in fact there was a guy right around the coner from me who bought 100 acre for right at $1000.00 per acre 2 years ago NOW he sold it for 2600.00 per acre...I think Oglethorpe county is actually the better investment...the price is soo much lower and it is ONLY a little ways out.....But if your heart is set on Walton county you are going to have to make that work.....

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Another possibly helpful site: http://www.sac.usace.army.mil/permits/rpp-bro.html

I'm posting research as I come across it. Sorry it doesn't immediately answer questions, but you are getting what you pay for!
\:D


Shawn

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BP, It not so much that my heart is set on Walton, as it is my job is set in NE Atlanta. An hour is my limit for driving to/from the office.

If you read the definition on that CoE document:

Navigable waters are defined as waters that have been used in the past, are now used, or are susceptible to use as a means to transport interstate or foreign commerce up to the head of navigation. Section 10 and/or Section 404 permits are required for construction activities in these waters.

You couldn't float a toy boat in my creek today. But the Corps calls it "navigable".


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Shawn, I read the case you posted and it's a case of stupidity. The land owner applied for a 404 and was denied. He proceeded to rip with a dozer anyway, and "obliterated", "completely filled" wetland areas. The Gov't let him off when he restored a section of wetlands, then proceeded to rip again, the Gov't made him stop, then ISSUED him a permit to rip in 40+ acres...he then tore up 4000+ acres !!! He admitted blame. The poor SOB did it all for the greed of money. That's why the 404 is in place, he wasn't a pond lover, he was a crook who would do anything to make a dollar. It's easy to blame big brother for everything...but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Good reference Shawn, it was an eye opener. Jersey...surely you can convince the people in charge of your jurisdictional wetlands that your project is either "not related to wetland areas", or "not intrusive to the surroundings" It seems like the only real reason that you could be denied is that the land strata being disturbed will fill downstream wetlands. I would get some get core samples tested to strengthen your case for the permit.

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Eastland, you are right, the guy really pushed his luck and got bit. I don't have a whole lot of sympathy. A couple of interesting points in the case that I found though is the definition of wetlands. From what I read, these were not necessarily swamps, but more basins that had the potential to hold water or keep it from going into the ground. Except for lately, I don't think that this area is a particularly rain prone area. The other is that while this particular guy was out for the almighty dollar, he most likely had an attitude that "this is my land, I paid for it, and I can do what I want with it!"

For better or worse, this is the problem with any government oversight. Too little control and the wants of others irreversibly damages the environment not only on their land, but several others as well. Too much control, and you lose the ability to do what you want to do, even though you think there is no or negligible effect on others. Take the Pothole region in the Northern Plains states. Critical habitat for nesting waterfowl. Spring meltoff and rains fill in low lying areas with relatively shallow amounts of water. Unfarmable. The Clean Water Act (the real issue with 404 permits) prohibits filling them in, making thousands of acres unfarmable and the remaining ground difficult. These potholes are generally dry later in the year, but those spring wet months of shallow water provide massive insect crops for growing young ducks, with no 20lbs blue cats or flatheads to gobble them up. Those ducks then fly south in the fall, providing vital revenue for duck hunting outfits in Louisana.

All that said (and I apologize for this getting long winded), most of the time there probably isn't a whole lot of damage that our little old ponds are going to cause. But I also had a NRCS guy tell me that wetlands were 3 ft. or shallower, so my 6-10 ft. pond was "destroying" wetlands, thus under Corps jurisdiction. Now I happen to have my pond situated where I can expand and deepen the pond while mitigating the loss of current wetlands with the creation of new. The Corps generally loves the term "mitigating". A hint for future requests.


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They told me I could build my pond if I mitigated. All they wanted was for me to pay the mitigation bank $135 per foot of stream. Let's see, 900 feet x $135 = $121,500


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Yeah they always give this option....They discussed this with me when I started....I then hired a consultant for like 300 or 400 bucks I think...He went through another core officer who knew him and was much more helpfull...

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Would your consultant be interested in calling me?


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He died a year ago...the Guy I worked with at the core was named Allen Miller...

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Alan Miller is still with the Corps.
Got assigned to Bagdad.
Guess that what happens for helping a pondbuilder.


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I am certainly no expert on the permit process but I have tried it twice and thought I'd share my experiences. I currently have a pond under construction (see "my first pond" on selecting a site). With that one I started by talking to the local conservation office and they said since I was not in a protected area and was basically excavating out an area to catch rainwater (there is only water flowing in the area after the snow melts or heavy rain periods)I did not need any permits. They did tell me to talk to the Dept of Transportation because it would be close to the highway so I did that and they said no problem because I was not building a dam and there was already a culvert under the road designed for the area. So as far as I know this pond is legal and I did not need any permits. Technically I guess I could have done this pond without even checking with anyone but I didn't know that at the time.
On the second project I have a creek that runs through my land, the creek flows all year and varies from 12-24 inches deep and 4-6 feet wide. My plan is to excavate a pond along the creek and then cut into the creek and divert some of the water into the pond and then at the other end of the pond have the water flow back into the creek. I again started at the conservation office and they said on this one I would need to check with the Iowa Dept of Natural Resources because I may be in a protected wetlands area. I called the number they gave may and the gentleman I spoke to said that I was not in a protected area so I could dig there. He also said that I would need to talk to the "water rights" part of the DNR and gave me the number. I again explained to project to tha guy and he said that as long as I was not stopping the flow of the creek I was ok but that I would need to have a "water storage permit" He sent me the paperwork, which was a single page with just some generic questions and a description of the project. That gentleman was the first person that said anything to me about the Corp of Engineers. He said that his understanding was that the Corp would not have a permit that I would need for a project like this but he recommended calling just to be sure. I called the number that he gave me and once again explained the project. The gentleman at the Corp of Engineer explained that essentially the corp regulates the placement of soil into waterways (building dams on creeks, filling in wetlands,...). He explained that since I am not putting soil into the waterway I did not need a permit from the Corp of Engineers. So again as far as I know this pond will be legal and the only permit that I will need is the water storage permit because I will be confining some water.
I don't know if this will help anyone but just thought I'd share the information.

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Thanks Matt for the info. I am sure your first pond wouldn't need a permit, but I am sure that your second pond beside the creek would have been difficult to get, at best, if you were in my district. It really comes down to the engineer in charge of your district.

Post some pictures of your project as it progresses. I wish you all the success in the world, and thanks again.


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Excellent post, I hope it clarifies things for Jersey and others. I would like for him to get his pond and move forward. Referencing Page 2 of this post : "404 is intended to stop pollutants from entering the wetland areas"

1) Are you in a wetland area ? If so, you'll need a permit. Case studies here show they aren't as bad to deal with as the horror stories suggest.
2) No wetland area, know your rights, take before and after pics of low lying areas near your pond, just to be safe.

Quite honestly, I believe local chapters mean a lot when it comes to regulations (State or Federal)...I also appreciate the work of everyone who achieved issuing Comorant Permits in TX. United we stand, divided we fall...kind of stole that line \:\)

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That is exactly why I am so terribly frustrated. I am not in or even near any wetland. The application fof a 404 permit is filled with nothing but questions about how much wetland you are going to disturb. But I have been told by my county that I must have a permit from the corps, and the corps has told me that they will not issue me a permit.

I am taking a new route now, and will discuss it here soon. Again, thanks to everyone here for the input.


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Jersey, I know you are probably tired of hearing things like this, but have you tried to file some kind of exemption letter with the Corps? I worked on a Clean Air permit with my company here in Oklahoma and I just had to prove that we were not emitting enough pollutants to require a permit. I received a certificate from the Department of Environmental Quality that said I was not required to have a permit. It wouldn't surprise me that the Corps won't issue you a permit because you aren't required one. But since you may not have asked the right question, you haven't gotten the right answer. It is not uncommon for a governmental entitiy to not offer additional information beyond what was asked for.


Shawn

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