Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Building a dam Methods for dozing a pond

Are there any secrets to pushing dirt with a dozer when building a pond that make it a more effecient or better process or should you just dip the blade and start pushing as much dirt as possible in whatever method that seems the easiest?

Mercury,

My hands-on experience on a dozer is now two years and I categorically disagree with the above post that recommends you start with "bigger and better".

I had the help of one of the top, if not the top, dozer operators in East Texas in getting started and I am still learning, every time I get on my machine. He told me to start with a small machine and that is by far the best advice he gave me. Some advice he failed to mention, because it was second knowledge to him. For example:

When I looked at a dozer I thought "that has to be the safest thing you can be on"....wrong. I hadn't operated it for half a day before I split my head wide open. A dozer is completely different from a tractor. It is effectively "one piece" meaning when it goes over something and the CG (center of gravity) crosses then the machine moves rapidly as one unit. I crossed over a log no larger than 4 inches in diameter and the dozer fell forward hurling me into the structure. A larger dozer would have killed me on the spot. As it was, I learned a painful bloody lesson. A dozer must be used with caution, especially when you are first starting. Seat belts on a machine that crawls are required, mandatory. It may cost you your life without them.

As far as blade techniques, I'm still learning. The most difficult thing for me was to keep a smooth push going...my first attempts were like a wash board. I'm much better now but still learning. I have gotten very adept at placing the blade exactly where I want it...I can pick off a small yaupon bush within 1 inch of a tree trunk, but still have trouble with a level dirt push. The important thing to learn is to not try to take too much dirt off at a time. I had a tendency to lower the blade and it would dig in too deep and then have to raise it and then lower it...you get the picture I hope. Take small bites and it works better.

I would like to encourage you to try it. Please do not take my words as trying to scare you...far from it. I love being on the dozer. It is honestly one of the most fun things I have ever done. I just hope you will do it safely, start small, and take nothing for granted when you are on that machine. It is nothing like a tractor. Good digging to you!

I guess what I am trying to ask is should an operator figure out the desired dimensions of the pond and start shaving off small depths of dirt with long pushes to the dams or should you just start digging down from the middle and just keep pushing the dirt out (creating a funneling effect)? Are there secrets for sealing off a tank (besides lining it with clay,liner,bentonite)- should you run your tracks thoroughly over all surfaces before loading up and leaving? Any and all secrets and suggestions will be appreciated. I know this is a vague question but throw some input out there and I will hopefully learn a thing or two.

Okay, the first thing to do is clear the surface of the top soil and any vegetation. That is best accomplished, I believe by long pushes, moving the material to the side for later use. Then you dig the core and pack the dam. Yes, constantly running the dozer tracks back and forth over the dam to compact the soil as you go....only adding a couple of inches and then compacting and adding soil and compacting...make sure the clay has some mositure in it to help packing.

Good clay is required at the site...without it, you will spend possibly a lot of money and still have a leaking pond. Hope this helps.

Hey Mercury, to add to what ML said, heavy (and light) equipment will kill you and never shed a tear. You sometimes don't get the chance to say "Now, why didn't I?"

Mercury,

Are there secrets to pushing dirt with a dozer to make the process more efficient or better. Techniques and tools might be a better way to answer this.


Not in my wildest nightmare could I remotely call myself an operator of heavy equipment, so take these comments with this in mind. Given enough time, patience and $$$$ I could build my dream pond with my little dozer. Minus the $$$$, I could accomplish the same with a just a shovel. A dozer is a tool. Different tools accompany different tasks. Go to any heavy equipment manufacturer's web site and look at the variety of dozers available. (I need a dribble bib when I visit those sites).

A dozer will push dirt but there is a point of diminishing returns. The boys over on ACMOC or ACME.org will tell you this. If you want to "push" dirt a long distance, trench dozing is one efficient way to accomplish this. If you want to "move" dirt, the most efficient way, for me, is to have a contractor show up with an excavator and dump truck. He moved 1000 yards of dirt in one day. I couldn't even begin to tell you how long it would of taken me to accomplish what he did.

If you have the time, patience and $$$$ you'll learn the "techniques" to pushing dirt with a dozer. I think you'll agree that no matter how old we get, Tonka Toy envy stays with us. They have just gotten bigger and more costly. Now go play in the dirt!

ML, one of the first "cautions" the previous owner of my dozer told me involved obstacles. When going over an obstacle, always lower the blade. Seesaw physics can be deadly on a dozer.

Russ, Yes and I have the scars to prove it!

Mercury,
Welcome to the show! As a newbie to this pond thing, I also considered equipment purchases and DIY. Ultimately, I paid da man and don't regret the decision. I have now had the chance to watch a backhoe and dozer perform the "heavy equipment ballet" as they groomed my project. I cannot for the life of me imagine not only the expense of purchase (and maintainence!) of this type of equipment, but maybe more...the time required to execute the work. ML and Russ touched briefly on this same subject in the thread: New pond, old question... Make no mistake, tho...I truly respect the entrepeneur that does go ahead and DIY with a his own equipment.

Merc,
I've attached a photo that was taken in 2002 of myself attempting to help the Contractor build our livestock pond. (I'll operate the dozer and he operates the scraper). As mentioned by others earlier, a dozer is a great piece of equipment when in the right hands. I might also add that in the wrong hands (myself), it can be a dangerous and an expensive lesson. This D-6 was easily removed by a competent operator, but at the time it scared me!
My friendly Operator was a "magician" with heavy equipment and informed me in a polite way that he charged $85 per hour for his services or, $185 per hour if I helped!

Anymore I stick to operating farm tractors, lawn mowers and hand scisors.

[img]http://www.redsplash.com/ims/pic.php?u=2728E8VpV&i=28349[/img]

Be careful,
Ed

Ed,

Thats some pretty expensive "structure" you've got planted there.


Russ

Thank you for posting that picture, Ed. It is well worth a thousand word safety lecture.

Thanks for shocking me back into reality re: considering DIY on heavy machinery.

OOOOhhhhhh!!! Pick Me !!!!!!
This machine was brand a$$ new!

Meadowlark,
On a big dozer a 4" log would be a squishy bump.
The small dozers buck worse and are a little harder to run. They don't get stuck as bad and that could be a big plus.
Mercury,
I'd suggest starting on a outside edge when you start digging. Take it down 3 or 4 feet. If you see in the slope any seams of gravel or material you don't like, dig out the bad spot now and pack good material back in. Pack in the rest of the slope if you care to. Dress this slope up and call it done. Now go down another 3 or 4 feet and do the same thing matching this slope into the part above that you have already "finished".
Do the same thing to both sides and when you get down to where you want to be the sides are done.
I like to keep it lower towards the dam so I'm loading the blade going downhill a little. Don't end up getting lower in the back and have to try to load the blade going uphill.
The 2 basic dozing techniques are slot pushing and cornering. Slot pushing works better in looser materials the tend to "run" off the sides of the blade. Just keep working down in the same track letting the windrows build up on each side to hold in the dirt. Cornering start on one side and dig down about a quarter of a dozer blade deep. Then stay at this depth and corner into this ledge taking a narrow cut with the side of the blade. Most operators work from right to left.
Hey Jersey, did that cost extra?

Zhkent, thanks for posting. What you call "slot" dozing is what I meant by "trench" dozing. Thanks for the clarification.

Here are some sites that contain lots of information on dozers(main focus on older machines)and dozing techniques.

http://www.acmoc.org
antique caterpillar machinery owners club

http://www.antiquecaterpillar.org
antique caterpillar machinery enthusiasts

http://www.IBDozing.com


All links worked for me so if anyone has any problems, just do a search. Enjoy.


Russ

zhkent,

Excellent post. Wish you were around here to provide hands-on instruction. Great operators aren't necessarily great teachers and you sound like both.

Would it be asking too much for you to post your thoughts on size of dozer for various tasks? I've found my 450 to be excellent at general ranch work and pond repair/renovation but very slow for building a pond much beyond 1 acre. This info might help Mercury and future purchasers of dozers.

However, I'm still of the opinion that for a DIY just starting out person, it is better to start with a relatively small dozer....and a top flight teacher. Thanks.

Meadowlark,
I remember a big pond, it's been awhile but it was maybe 3 acres. The pond is by Coffeyville Ks. The cat skinner I was helping said it was built in the depression with people, shovels, and wheel barrows.
There are a lot of ponds that were built with horses and slips also.
Compared to that any size dozer looks great and it proves what can be done with even a small dozer and time. On a bigger dig it can be "very slow" like you said. And if anyone tries digging an acre pond with a 450 they may find that is an understatement.
I will use the cat sizes as I am most familiar with them.
The D3 is an awesome little dozer. With time you can do a good size hole. It has great flotation also, good for mud, won't pack dirt easily.
The D5 is also a great tractor. There is more than 1 professional excavator that makes a living with them. An acre hole you'd have to take a lunch, and anything bigger you'll be camping there.
The D8 was, and probably still is the most prolific dirt moving machine for moving dirt.
My favorite right now is my D9G. It has a semi U blade rated at 17 cu. yds.. That's a semi load of dirt a push in perfect conditions. The brand new D9's only have me beat by 15 hp. Flotation is not great. Compaction is easy to get.
The D6 and D7 are good all purpose machines, big compared to the D3 size.
Probably the most important thing is to buy a machine that will stay running.
If a final drive, motor, or transmission goes out on a larger dozer it's a lot of money. It can be as expensive as the purchase of a dozer, but it probably won't increase the value of the machine very much.
The dozer size that suits one guy wouldn't necessarily be right for another.
I have a very large dozer so I can move a lot of dirt when I need to in a short amount of time, to make a living and still have time for family.

zhkent,

Great info...just great. I don't know about Mercury but your posts are really helpful.

I have renovated an old 1/4 acre pond into a 2 acre bass pond with my 450....and it took awhile and lots of patience and some repairs.

You used a term flotation and of course I know what that means in the general sense but as applied to dozers are you talking about the getting stuck factor or something else? Thanks again for your responses...you've got me to thinking about a larger machine because I've still got several ponds yet to build in my lifetime (hopefully). Thanks again for your responses.

Here's my story. I begged my dad to buy a dozer, he bought a small Komatsu that didn't do much and was hard to get anything done with. Then he found what he was really wanting to buy--an old D6. I still got a lot of nothing done. I learned that no matter how long I thought about it when I started I would change my gameplan. The biggest problem was our dirt was dry and hard. The second biggest problem was lack of knowledge about the dozer. I tightened the clutch and it helped a lot and then it rained and it helped even more. I also discovered that different soils push differently.
My opinion is to just go out and do it. I have learned to operate the beast a lot better but think I will still improve on knowing what I can and can't do. Slopes wanting to steer for me is aggrevating.
We still have the little guy and it works good to clean out muck and doze out ceders. It's also moveable with a regular truck and trailer.
Thanks for the pictures of stuck equipment. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one.

zhkent,

Could I impose on you for one more request? Promise I won't ask for more.

Could you please provide a similar summary of sizes vs tasks for track-hoes?

As I said, I've got several ponds on my wish list, and am thinking of investing $30k to $40k in track-hoe which would be resold (immediately) after pond(s) completion. Your comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Meadowlark,
Be glad to answer any question if I can.
I'm referring to flotation as ground preasure, normaly measured in psi, Pounds per Square Inch.
A lady's spiked high heel has a very high psi, small surface. A snow shoe would have a very low psi.
So a dozer with high flotation can work on softer earth without sinking in. While none of the dozers can work in the wet silt of a pond without sinking through it, a high psi low flotation dozer probably will start sinking into the moist clay under the silt where a low psi machine probably would not.
I can share at least one simple fact about excavators. The size designation number on later machines relates to the weight of the machine.
On most brands it's the first 2 numbers, on cats it's the second 2.
Examples Komatsu 300 is 30 metric tons, Komatsu 250 is 25 metric tons, Komatsu 200 is 20 metric tons, Komatsu 150 is 15 metric tons. A Cat 330 is 30 metric tons, a Cat 325 is 25 metric tons, a Cat 320 is 20 metric tons.
Seems like my Cat 330 weighs 74,000 lbs. which should come out around 30 metric tons.
I don't use my excavator as much as a lot of contractors. If I can doze or haul with a scraper the dirt from the cut to the dam and pack the dirt in with the machine I am doing it with, I can do it with one person. If I use the excavator the material has to be pushed, or loaded onto trucks and hauled, and then leveled and packed. It cost me more to move and process the dirt than the other way. If the dozer and scraper were smaller the cost would be closer to balancing.
The good part about excavators is that they move dirt cheaper and with less fuel than about any other machine. The bad part is they can only move it 40 feet or so. Long reach excavators can reach further at the expense of not being able to move as much quantity each cycle.

Thanks a bunch Kent. I promised not to ask more questions but since you said it was okay...

Can I reasonably expect to find a 30 ton unit in servicable condition for the price mentioned?

ML,

To give you an idea of equipment prices, have a look at http://www.machinerytrader.com

Meadowlark,Why don't you just rent a trak hoe? I rented a 320 cat with 200 hours on it last week for 1700 per week or 40 hours.I used app 200 gals of fuel. You would not believe how much dirt those things can move.They delivered it 50 miles for 90 bucks each way.Very simple to operate,just don't get to close to the hole.Biggest problem is getting rid of the dirt like Kent says.

$90 bucks each way? That is a bargain. Around here the minimum charge is about $400 in/out total.

Renting may be the way to go. The track-hoe portion of the work can be compressed into specific time slots(multiple ponds). I need to crunch some numbers and try to determine the total track-hoe time and the number and lengths of the time slots. Then I can do a rent vs purchase trade study.

Good point, but would still be interested in any purchase cost and resale data that anyone has. The track-hoes do seem to hold value very well over a years time frame and also seem to be much less of a maintenance risk than dozers. At least, that is what I've been told. Thanks.

Meadowlark, nation rental will deliver 50 miles both ways for free at lease the store in the DFW area did for me a few years back. There shows to be a store in longview, not sure how far you are from there. They have or had 2 sizes of track holes. The bigger one was more difficult to rent or deliver because of the truck required to haul it. Good luck. I'm using my kubota L4400 with loader to clean out my dry holes. I have no $$$$(cause I spent it on the new tractor), but lots of time on my hands cause the weather man said it ain't never gone to rain around here again. I am real pleased with what this little tractor will do. It works very well because it is light and want sink up in the muck. In about forty hours I have cleaned out about a foot of silt out of the dry half of my 1.5 acre pond. I wish I had a dozer or track loader too but it want mow my costal fields or plow my garden I had to sacrifice something.

rockytopper,

Unfortunately I'm about 200 miles(I think) from Longview, certainly more than 50. I've got a good possibility for a rental under investigation now...with a company that sells used heavy equipment, but will also do short term rentals (Hendrix Equipment).

That Kubota makes fine equipment, don't they. I bought a used M4050 a few years back with a loader and back-hoe attachment. It is just a great machine. They sell a back-hoe attachment for your model I believe and you could really make good use of it in cleaning out your pond. Kubota = great stuff, IMHO.

I guess guys like us can never get enough equipment. If you had told me a few years ago I would own this equipment, I'd say no way and would have been wrong.

ML,
A 30 ton excavator, 60,000 lbs, would be 27 metric ton. 30 metric ton equals (x 2204 lbs) 66120 or 33 tons. The 25 metric is 55100 or 27 1/2 tons.
Depends how much trouble moving it is where you are at. If oversize loads are expensive to get moved you might look at the 220 size. They are also more common.
You can find decent excavators at a reasonable price I would guess. I personaly haven't had the best of luck in this area. I bought a Case/Drott at an auction. The parts for it are made in France, not to handy. I got rid of it. Next I bought an expensive one that had 5500 hours. It needs some care now, and has had some. It now has 6900 hours. Had hoped to go to 10000 hrs without trouble.
Wait, you mentioned you wanted to buy an excavator, man do I have a nice low hour machine!
(Dr. Bruce - some hypnotizing of a pigeon perhaps?)

Kent,

Thanks again for your helpful info....I think you are correct about the 220 size.

While talking to some equipment guys this weekend, I learned that equipment in this local area is really absorbed on FEMA hurricane related projects right now. These guys said that they(FEMA) are paying premium wages for anyone who even claims to be an operator of anything and experienced guys are really in demand and being compensated accordingly. The market for track-hoes locally is just out of sight as a result. The data all points toward renting (if I can find one to rent). Thanks for your help...and Kansas is a little far away for transport to East Texas.

I have been a member for a couple of months now trying to figure out how to approach a one acre and 3 acre pond cleanout. The one acre pond has been drained for 6 months and is now ready for a trackhoe for cleanout. I have a D5 to help out and when I bought it I thought this was all I needed. Now that I am "keeping" the dozer my wife has a hard time believing I won't "keep" the track hoe. What in the world would you do with one after you dig out a pond or two? (as apposed to a dozer)

At this point I think I will be "windrowing" the muck to let it dry some before spreading, or, plan B would be to load it on a truck or scraper for hire. Does this sound reasonable? Also, I would be interested in buy/sell/trade/co-owning a track hoe for a year or so. I am in Oklahoma City.

Track hoes are like loader tractors, just really handy. You just might end up using it a for more than you think.
Loading on a truck would probably work better than a scraper. The trucks can dump out the back and leave larger piles. The scraper scatters it as it dumps and then can't drive there again without getting stuck. So getting rid of the mud with trucks takes a lot less area.
If there is room behind the pond dam I have done this and it worked well, works best before the mud drys; Get rid of the water. Dig a nice place to sit the track hoe on the dam, where you can easily reach the pond on one side and reach over the back of the dam when you turn 180 degrees. Dig a sump hole on the pond side and throw it over the back of the dam. A lot of mud will actually run into the hole, just keep throwing it over the back of the dam. Use the dozer and start crowding the mud to the hole- the mud runs downhill pretty easy. Runny mud will also keep sliding down the backside of the dam if there is room.

cwooten,

I most definitely would be interested in sharing a track-hoe for a year or more. I don't know the transportation costs from your area to mine and that might be prohibitive.

Let me share with you something that I did in renovating two old ponds, much like you are faced with. It worked for me, but may not be for your situation. Faced with the tons and tons of muck that built up over 50 years in a couple of ponds, I had the same choices you have....but I came up with a better way...for me at least. I pushed the muck into an island with a ring of clay to hold it in place. It takes only a few hours on the dozer to accomplish this in a small pond. The island becomes under water structure when the pond re-fills. In my case, one island is about four feet under water and surrounded by 8 feet of water. It works absolutely great for me and for the fish...but again may not fit your needs.

I'm seriously interested in the track hoe...send me an e-mail if you are also interested. Thanks.

Meadowlark,

Yes, I have read your technique. I don't see how that I could get my muck into a pile or island. I would think it would be like trying to pile pudding into a pile. Also, I think my muck would take up too much room in the pond eliminating the whole reason I am tackling the project. Anyway, call me hard headed but I just want the stuff outa there. Some one else mentioned piling/pushing it over the damn but this overflow area is where my next larger pond starts. I can use this technique on my next pond.

Meadowlark, where are you from. I just priced trucking a 13 ton machine from Sulpher Springs TX to OKC and it was $712.

THanks, C Wooten

cwooten,

In East Texas, between Lufkin and Livingston.

$712 sounds like a heck of a bargain to me.