Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations The problem with Pond Boss

OK, now that I have your attention, let me start by saying that I have spent many enjoyable hours reading this website, and have learned more about managing, stocking, and maintaining a pond than I ever could have learned anywhere else. And for these topics, Pond Boss is the best source of information I have seen.

The problem I have is that there is very little information about how to go about the initial process of building a pond, before the heavy equipment arrives. Specifically, what I am looking for is info on the process of getting a permit. I understand that many, if not most members here did not permit their ponds, and may not want to discuss this on a public forum. I need to hear from those who DID go through this process, either successfully or not. I want to know if you had to fill out a 404 form, and how you worded your responses to it. Has anyone re-zoned their property in order to meet the requirements? Any information like this would be invaluable to me as I am at a dead end with the ACoE.

Just a bit of background on my project...I bought 66 acres with a spring-fed creek. My plan was to build a house and 5-7 acre pond on it. Since there is no way to "hide" this pond from the county inspectors who will be involved when I build the house, I decided from the start that I would spend the time and money to go ahead and get a permit. How hard could it be, right? My county gov't had no problem issuing me a "land disturbance" permit, just as long as I could produce a permit to build the pond from the ACoE. So I called my local district ACoE office and spoke with the head honcho. I was told which form to fill out, and that it would be denied once I sent it in. Just like that. Why, I asked? "Because we are discouraging people from building any more ponds". End of conversation.

Now these people don't know anything about me, my property, my plan, how big of a pond I want, how deep, or anything else. The answer is just NO. Like the TV commercial. NO, NO, NO! I sent in the application anyway. Guess what the answer was? By the way, there is no wetland anywhere near.

I am currently talking to a professional civil engineering company to see if they can help. So far, they say they can design my pond and dam, and will submit the application for me, but there is no guarantee that it will be accepted. They will, however, be happy to accept my $7-9000 for their services.

Now how do you think I feel when I read the posts from you guys up in Iowa with your stories of the government paying you to build a pond? Or you all down in Texas talking about the LMB you caught yesterday?

I don't even want to get into what has happened to landowners rights, that is another topic. I just need to hear from someone who has actually gone completely through the 404 process and gotten a permit.

Sorry for the long post, but I really need some help here.

Heck, I don't even know what the ACoE is.

However, I have found that when dealing an unfriendly Gov't Dept. that there is usually some consultant, Lawyer or someone who knows the ropes and has their ear. I guess it sometimes take spreading some long green around. I went to the NRCS and got some help. Others haven't been so lucky and maybe it depends on budget or programs or lack of. I bet there is a pond builder who does know the ropes and I would look for them. You might also talk to the Engineering Company about the permit process and what the cost is if it is denied.

BTW, I have also found that State and/or Federal Representatives can sometimes help. I am also aware of several people who joined the local political parties, got to know people and asked for help.

I went thruogh the core and got a permitt about two years ago....send me an E-mail and I will try to help..

Jersey,
The Army Corp Of Engineers. They enforce the clean water act. They are doing what a lot of enviromental money in politics is asking for.
If you support organizations that are for stricter laws, you are fighting yourself.
A duck organization comes to mind.

Jersey,

Do not give up. W. Alexander in our area sued the Corp of Engineers to prevent them from bullying people out of land that was above the high water mark for Kaw Lake. He won. The law states the Corp can only take land up to the high water mark. This is as I have heard it from
Mr. Alexander's son-in-law.

My point is simple, sue them to force them to do their jobs. They are servants to the law and should also serve the American People.

Get a lawyer and perhaps they will fold their cards as most low level civil servants do not want to get their names tied to anything negative. Being noticed in that world is not good for job security. Being the one that caused the govt to have to go to court is most likely a real carreer buster for those people.

I hope just a threat of a lawsuit by an attorney will get the gears rolling for you. Hiring an attorney will indicate to them you are serious and are not going away with just a brush off.

Too bad it takes lawsuits to get people like that to follow the law and do their jobs.

I've noticed that people seem to fold pretty quickly when you tell them you are going to make them famous.

Jersey, you've mentioned a civil engineering company at a cost of $7-9K; then someone mentioned lawyers - now you know a lawyer is going to cost thousands of dollars.

And what is a lawyer going to do to a government/ACoE employee? The government employee is totally insulated from harm. A private lawyer probably couldn't even get a letter of reprimand into the employee's personnel file let alone force them to do anything. So what's the threat there?

Also, the government has attorneys on staff, so it's not like they're going to cower with fear at the thought of having to pay an attorney; they already are paying him, full time no less!

In one of your previous postings for help on this issue, a forum newcomer told a story about someone who was building a pond and was coming up against resistance similar to yourself. I believe the words quoted in the posting were "congressional inquiry." And the problem was solved.

You haven't come back and said that you had no luck with the congressmen or senators.

Have you tried that yet?

Jersey,

Sunil is partially correct about the govt. guys. They are not afraid of a lawsuit IF IF IF IF and only IF they are doing their job, complying to the law, and are not blowing smoke. If they are not complying to the law or if they are sluffing you off to please their management, they will fold with just a couple letters written by an attorney.

I was concerned with the statement that they had already turned you down before you filed because they "were discouraging people from building any more ponds." That is so bogus they need to have their whole organization disbanded.

Sometimes you just got to stand up for what is right. Sometimes it is as important as go to war, sometimes it is less important, like the right to have a pond.

I re-suggest an attorney....

An attorney will write a letter and request the organization SHOW CAUSE why the permit is not being considered or allowed.

A second letter would specifically address the reply and provide your attorney's interpetation of the law relative to the reason for denial. A third letter may be required, it would most likely request a formal hearing from the government agencies' counsel or board of governors that are required by law to resolve issues. Even the IRS has a procedure to resolve disputes.....

You can limit the amount you have to pay an attorney by hiring him or her by the hour. One letter, $$$,
Two letters, $$$$$$. Three letters, $$$$$$, Show up at a hearing... $$$$$$$ File a lawsuit... BIG BIG $$$$$.

If you get past the second letter, perhaps you could get some financial help with a hearing or lawsuit. Others in your region may be in the same fix. I know I would sure donate a bit of money to let the fed agencies know they are really not in control, the judges and legislatures are.... and that is another problem in itself....

Good luck, but bottom line, I would put up a dam good fight or put up a good dam and let them come after me....

Jersey, there are as many different ways to approach this problem as there are people. We tried to get 50 acres into the Conservation Reserve Program. Our application was denied, rightfully. Our local Farm Service Agency went to the state to see if there was some way we could get it in that they hadn't thought of. The regulations were very clear cut and they did their best.

So I wrote our Senator (Daschle D-SD), explained my situation and asked if he could get the law changed. Well, the law didn't get changed but the Sec. of Agriculture decided to interpret the law in my favor. If a US Senator decides to push something, they can have quite a bit of power.

There is a moral here. There are no laws, rules or regulations, only interpretations.

Dennis, I didn't mean to say that your advice about getting an attorney involved was wrong, and in re-reading my post, I could have said it better. The better the attorney, the more favorable the results with something like this, but the issue/problem can stay compartmentalized at that specific level of bureaucracy without oversight from a higher power. I'm saying why take the chance?

Also, I agree with you Dennis, that when you need to fight for something, do it.

To amplify Norm's part, Jersey as a US citizen (assuming), has a right to access his/her local, state, and federal politicians. The ACoE is a federal organization as is the US Senate.

Funding for ACoE projects are reviewed, approved, modified, or denied by committees made up of US Senators, and Congressmen I believe. There's a hell of a lot of stroke there, and it's at Jersey's fingertips if he/she wants it.

So Jersey, I'm saying come in from above. You have had no satisfaction dealing with these people. Take it as high as you can.

Also Jersey, I've mentioned contributing money before. You may not even have to give any money. You could certainly give it a shot, but my opinion is when you want something and you're fighting for it, come in strong like you mean it.

Just a suggestion Jersey: Have your house built-wait for all the inspectors to go away for good & dig the pond at a later date. Don't give the gov't any info & they will hopefully leave you alone. In addition, many people on this site have bought a small herd of cattle to justify digging a pond as a watering hole.(5 acre pond-you may need a big herd!!!!!!) Good luck

I agree with the comments above, they all seem to attack the issue from a slightly different angle. IF this were my problem, I would likely go this route:

1. Write all your Congressional types a letter stating your issue and position. Make it short, sweet, and to the point, but include pertainent information (conversation with ACoE, denied permit, lack of response in requesting reason for denial.) As hard as it may be, try to keep emotion out of it and resist the urge to badmouth the Corps. You can do that in follow up letters if the nice approach doesn't work. E-mails as well as snail-mail letters can work.

2. A certified letter to the Corps requesting review and reason for denial.

3. A stronger letter to the Congressial types requesting an inquiry. As a former Active Army officer (not in the ACoE) and a current Reservist, WE had to definately pay attention to those. I'm not so sure about the Corps.

Hope this helps, keep us informed!

I certainly do appreciate all the feedback and ideas from everyone. I am going to avoid the lawyer route for now because I know how fast money can fly once I do go this way. Right now, I am working with the engineering firm to try to limit my expenses if a permit is not granted. The engineers will be going to the Corps to get a clear understanding of what is required to get a permit before they do any actual engineering. One question they will ask is "If I comply with these requirements, will you will issue the permit"? If the answer is less than "Yes", then I will put the engineers on hold, and call the lawyers. I am not going to give up on this.

Like I said, I appreciate everyone taking time to offer their input. This should be a huge topic of interest to Pond Boss, as building ponds is the future of their reader base. I am a member of BoatUS, the Boat Owners Association of The US. They have lobbyists and groups scattered all over DC just watching out for boat owners rights. They have enacted and changed several laws that were not in the best interest of their members. Now I certainly understand that Pond Boss does not have the membership base to support actions of this scale. But just the readers of this web site and the subscribers to the magazine need to stick together on this. Like I said, I will not give up, and will keep everyone posted on my progress.

Jersy I agree WHOLE heartedly on forming a group to lobby our cause!!I suspect lake and ponds are going to be More and more popular, and this problem will raise its ugly head again and be a real PROBLEM...I was Very fortunate to get my permit. But it was not always this easy..I can for one would say I would support a group against this type of behavior from this government agentcy.

If any one wants to from a group I am all for it....count me in..

I found this in the Georgia Code:

Title 44, Chapter 8, Section 4 (44-8-4)

It shall be lawful for all corporations and individuals owning or controlling lands on both sides of any nonnavigable stream to construct and maintain a dam or dams, together with canals and appurtenances thereof, across the stream for the development of water power and for other purposes; provided, however, this Code section shall not be construed to release individuals or corporations constructing such dam or dams and appurtenant works from liability to private property owners for damages resulting from the construction and operation thereof either by overflow or otherwise.

More from the Georgia Code:

Title 44, Chapter 8, Section 3 (44-8-3)

The owner of a nonnavigable stream is entitled to the same exclusive possession of the stream as he has of any other part of his land. The legislature has no power to compel or interfere with the owner's lawful use of the stream, for the benefit of those above or below him on the stream, except to restrain nuisances.

Have you addressed these issues to the Core yet?

Jersey, how did you locate those statutes? What GA code is it in? I would be interested in researching this in my state.

Mr. Lusk,
This one would be a GREAT one to do a report on. There are so many stories on this IMPORTANT topic and ever one has a slightly different twist to it.. There needs to be some research done on this so we can have the strait scoop on this so we no how to move forward on this...

Good luck with your endeavours, it's a shame that you have to go to such trouble. In North Alabama, where I live, no permit was needed. You can have ponds and drill wells on your land with no trouble at all.

I located these Ga codes by just hunting for hours on the web. I put in key words like "landowners rights, riparian rights, dam, water, etc". The exact code is listed in my post above.

This would be a great article for Pond Boss, but it would take a ton of work to reasearch. If I were writing the article, I would start with the Corps, as their rules theoretically affect everyone.

Now, I am wondering who has the final say...the State of Ga. or the Feds. I have always heard that state law superceeds fed in most cases.

Not sure it would be possible to do a article on any of the Gov't agencys do to the answers you get would vary greatly from state to state and county to county. Heck, even in the same office if you were to ask the exact same question to 6 different employees you would probably get 8 different answers and if 2 different people ask the same question to the same employee they both would probably get different answers, depending on the day of the week or how the employee felt that day.
The red tape, denials, hoops jumped thru and repeated requests for help that some of the members have posted absoutely boggles the mind.
Spending thousands of $$$ for atty fees to build a pond on your own property???? Unbeliveable.

I know some of our Western members have to deal with Water Rights and they have courts and Judges that only deal with water issues but I'm refering to digging a hole and catching the wet stuff that falls out of the sky, not daming up a creek or diverting someone else's water.

Just my 3 cents (inflation) worth from a guy who isn't too fond of red tape or any Gov't agency for that matter.

"I located these Ga codes by just hunting for hours on the web." - I was afraid you'd say that, Jersey!

When I said "What code is it in," I meant to say "Where is the code?" My legal ignorance is showing - I mean, is it a state regulation from a department or bureau, like "Land Management" or DEM? Just trying to sort out the jurisdictions is like a shell game.

Jersey,

We need to stand up for each other's rights. If you think writing a complaint letter in support would help, please request one from each member of this forum via this site.

Here in Oklahoma, the only pond requirements I know of is not to damage federally identified wetlands, not to build a pond within 15 feet of a septic system, and we must request a state inspection on a new dam if people living below the dam can be flooded by a dam washout. These are reasonable restrictions. If there are any other permitting requirements, I am not aware of them and my neighbors don't seem to be concerned with any permits. For the most part, we hold to the "ignorance is bliss", "They will tell us when we have gone too far." and just "Get R Done". As stated in an earier post by another member, "That is why they call Oklahama, 'Native America'".

Now from the top of the rickity soapbox....

This pond building permit topic is really a major concern and extremly touchy issue. It comes down to a basic question of: "Do you have the right to do what you want to with your land if you are not infringing on other's rights, placing others in danger, or destroying the environment."

I really take offense that rules and regulations can be interpeted differenly for different people. I do not think we can over-react when it comes to protesting unfair and un-equal treatment by U.S. Government Agencies. If we do not take a stand on fair treatment without the interference of political cronies, we will become no better than those in some countries where bribery is a daily way of doing business.

I have been to 25 countries and I have had to bribe people to open an airline counter in time to allow me and others to catch a flight out of the country. I have had to pay "administration charges" to allow my tools to pass special inspection points set up by "goverment inspectors". I have endured insulting border crossing inspections of my tools and personal belongings because I didn't have the cash for a bribe. I have seen co-workers retained for 16 hours because they refused to offer a bribe. I finally came back and paid an "administrative fee" for them. In some countries, everyone in a uniform has their hand out. I have had to pay a "fee" to use a government road. I have had to pay $50 to keep our driver from being shot. (That one was a tough decision.) I have had to keep $500 U.S. cash on hand just in case the the U.S. decided to invade a neighboring country. The $500 would guarentee passage across the border into a "friendly" country. In all these and more situations, I never liked it and just saw it as part of doing business overseas. I always told myself, "Never in the good ole US of A."

What is the difference between getting a special interpetation requested by a U.S. Senator or just handing over fifty bucks per person in the car to the Nigerian Army Officer holding a .45 to your driver's head? The difference is the Nigerian is being more direct in his strong-arm tactics. I respect the bandit with a gun more than I respect a politician that just expects a "donation". In fact, the U.S. Senator should be impeached or recalled.

On the lighter side.... What we really need is a 28th amendment to the constitution.... "The ownership of a pond is necessary for the pursuit of happiness, the right to build and maintain a pond shall not be infringed."

Now back to the dark side....Even with an amendment as simple as that, I am sure their are some that would try to regulate ponds out of existence. I may be jaded, but I could see the govt. even creating a federal agency dedicated to the regulation of and the assignment of special taxes on ponds. Sounds familiar?

Sometimes "civil disobedience" is a proper act to get the attention and support of the media. An act of civil disobedience would be to build a pond in protest of a refused permit and stand your ground. Perhaps just a small pond that would not involve a lot of cash outlay.

Civil disobedience is a lot easier advised than done....., especially if a person is working for a living and has small children to support and if the kids are too young to know the difference between protesting and breaking the law.

Perhaps there is some retired person out there that is willing to give it a shot? I am wiling to do it but no one in this county seems to care if you build a pond, there are absolutely no building permits or construction criteria required in this county. The only permit I needed for building a complete house was a state approved septic system permit.

Well, again I have gotten too long winded. I keep telling myself to keep my keyboard quiet but my fingers just start moving on their own.

Thanks for listening. I always have been parial to the slogan, "Clean House and Senate too."

dennisinponca,
You are SOO correct! I think people do not realize the improtance of this matter!! The issues that Jersy is going through is REAL very REAL I have been where he is. It is crazy what you deal with. I work with personal lakes all the time. Sort of like a second hobby. I have personally owned two differnt peices of property with big lakes on them. Also I have been heavily involved with building my own. I have a brother who is just as involved with this process as I am. He owns a very large lake and is build two more. We know about the red tape of the Core of engineers. It is terrible, something really needs to be done about this. Every time I think about starting a lake design, the Core is ALWAYS the long pole in the tent. If I can get past these guys it is down hill from there.

What ever I have to do to support this I will. I think we need to form a group!!! No, I KNOW we need to form a group!!!!!!