Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations ATTN: BILL CODY

BILL,IN OHIO WHEN DO BLUE GILL AND BASS NORMALLY START TO SPAWN IN A SMALLER POND?

Hosty - Beginning of spawn times even in OH will vary by as much as 3 weeks depending on southern vs northern OH (latitude). Also depth of pond can make a diference. Shallower ponds will warm faster and thus fish can begin to nest a little earlier compared to a deep pond or a pond with Aquashade. Ponds with Aquashade can warm up a little slower than a clear water pond.

Generally male northern strain of LMB will begin to build the nest around 60-63F. Egg laying will begin when average daily water temps are fairly stable in the 63F-65F range. It is generally thought that LMB usually do not lay eggs below temps of 64F. These temps occur in northern OH around early or mid-May. LMB in far southern OH can begin to spawn in late April during an early spring and daily ave air temps.

Bgill usually begin spawning right after the LMB are in late stages of spawning or just done spawning. Male nest building will begin when water temps are stable in the 64F-67F. range. The water temps for egg laying will then be stable in the 67F+ range. Egg maturation for bgill can occur up through August. Bgill will spawn in water temps up through the high 70'sF maybe even 80F.

Real early spawners are often driven off the nest by cold fronts.

Bill,

I thought darker waters warmed faster?

BILL LAST YEAR I SAW ALL KINDS OF FRY FROM MY MINNOWS BUT NONE FROM MY BGILL,EVEN THOUGH I SAW A FEW NESTS, MY BGILL WERE ONLY ABOUT 4INCH LAST YEAR. WILL I BE ABLE TO SEE THE BGILL FRY EASILY AND TELL THEM APART FROM THE MINNOWS? IM WAITING TO PUT MY BASS IN BUT GETTING IMPATIENT.

CB1 - All sorts of factors affect how fast a body of water will warm. Darker water may or may not warm faster depending. Rate of warming of stained waters is affected by the type of stain and how the light rays peneterate through the water. Darker water from tannins warms rapidly and usually causes a more shallow epilimnion due to most of the light getting absorbed relatively quickly and not penetrating very deep. Concentration of the stain also has an impact.

Hosty - If you truly mean "fry" by the technical fisheries definition then, no, you will not be able to separate bgill fry from minnow fry unless you use 12X to 20X magnification and know exactly what morphological features to look for.
Technically fry still have evidence of yolk material. When yolk and oil are absorbed and the young fish have fully developed mouth parts and begin feeding on external food items then they are technically called larva or larvae (pl). Fish larvae have two or three developmental stages depending on which taxonomic philosophy you use.

Once the larvae (abt 0.75"-1" long) develop a full compliment of fin rays, then they are called a juvenile and are usually recognizable "in the net" without magnification if you "know" your fish pretty well. Juvenile fish are also commonly called fingerlings.

I think you can stock your fingerling bass (2"-4") in May or early June. They will begin feeding on last year's young minnows right away.
Bluegill will for sure spawn in June - July and bass can then also eat minnows and small bgill for the remainder of 2005. Bgill will then be the backbone of your forage fishes. Minnows (fatheads) will be scarse or absent late next year (2006).

BILL, I GUESS I WAS TALKING ABOUT FINGERLINGS NOT FRY. I GUESS I SHOULD GO VISIT THAT OLD TIMER FROM NEW BEDFORD.
BILL, ONE MORE ? MY BUDDY HAS A SMALL 1/4 ACRE POND IT GETS COMPLETELY COVERED WITH LILLY PADS WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO GET RID OF THEM OR ATLEAST MAKE IT FISHABLE? THANKS HOSTY.

There are three types of plants that can be easily mistaken for common water lily. You should become familiar each type before you chemically treat the "water lilies" in the 1/4 acre pond. 1. fragrent white water lily, 2. cow lily or spadderdock, smaller roundish yellow flower with big green leaves some may be held above water, 3. water shield- no slit in roundish floating leaf and stem attached in middle of leaf, small maroon to purple flowers.

Rodeo a glysophate product is the best herbicide to use for lily control. A surfactant should be added to a pure glysophate. I am not sure if this year there is a glysophate product available with premixed surfactant for pond use and packaged in smaller quanity (pint, qt). Sepro Chemical company makes an AquaPro in 1 quarts but I think it may require addition of a surfactant.

Kelly Duffie may be able to give advise on this topic. First determine which type of lily your friend has in the pond and then reask the question for best herbicide. I will do a little research in the meantime.

Bill, as always, well thought out, detailed answers. Do you know if Eliminator brand of glysophate has a surfactant and what it is. 1/2 price for double strength as compared to most roundup since Monsanto patent ran out.
Kelly, plse add your expertise.

There is (we have) a 1-gal. aquatic & turf labeled glyphosate product called GLYPHOMATE 41 (as in 41% a.i.) in 1-gal containers, and it already contains a surfactant (mfgr is PBI Gordon).
However, I have become a quick convert to BASF's newly registered HABITAT Herbicide (imazapyr) for treating rooted emergent species; especially lilies (if irrigation and potable uses are not an issue; otherwise glphosate is your only option).
HABITAT has demonstrated exceptional root-control on species that are rooted in the hydrosoil. Glyphosate frequently has difficulty providing "great" root control on rooted-emersed plants that grow in water-depths that exceed a few inches.
I'll email a label to you from the office tomorrow.
KD

DO YOU JUST SRAY THIS ON THE LEAVES THAT FLOAT ON THE WATER? THANKS FOR THE INFO. HOSTY

Just curious.....can this new product "habitat" be effectively used on cattails before the catkin forms?? If so, when?

I'm also assuming that this product can "smoke" American lotus. I'm sure the answers are out there, but I haven't been able to visit the site for quite some time. Any information will be deeply appreciated. Thanks.

Basically, Yes, Yes & Yes.
HABITAT is an AHAS inhibiting herbicide (for the technically-interested); somewhat similar in mode of action to ROUNDUP (glyphosate), though active on an different enzyme production-site.
Its primary entry-point is through the leaf-surface, although it is also soil-active if applied to terrestrial sites (avoid doing this anywhere near desirable trees). But, when applied directly into aquatic sites, it photo-degrades fairly rapidly.
Although I compared it to glyphosate, it appears to be much more capable at controlling emergent rooted plants - particularly cattails, even prior to catkin formation - and lotus.
As with all herbicides, obtain and read the label instructions (and water-use restrictions) before making any purchases.
Lastly, HABITAT will soon be available in quarts; which are well suited to small pond environments. I expect the quarts (a new container-size) to hit the dock around mid-May.

Hosty - From what I have read about the information on the new herbicide Habitat by BASF, it looks to be the best choice for your friend to reduce the infestation of "water lilies" in the 1/4 acre pond. Good control with minimal concentration of chemical into the pond. This chemical has a short life span and low residual and very low, if any toxic affect on animals including invertebrates. Treatment time will, in my opnion, be best in July or August when the lilies are manufacturing food reserves and sending materials to the roots.

Bill - experiences with HABITAT on terrestrial plants (and several aquatic species) indicates that we don't have to wait until plant-maturity for excellent treatment results (as with glyphosate on perennials). Cattails are an example. Actually, both annuals and perennials often respond best during their initial growth-phases. In some cases, a reduced-rate of imazapyr and glyphosate (tank-mixed) works extremely well on a broad spectrum of species - even several woody plants.
But, as previously warned, avoid using HABITAT away from the shoreline (on the ground) where the roots of desirable trees may exist. The roots may pick up the product through the soil, with unpredictable impact on the tree (depends on the specie). KD

BILL,IS THERE ANY REASON TO WORRY ABOUT PUTTING MY BASS IN, WHEN MY B/G HAVE NOT SPAWNED YET.I KNOW THEY SHOULD, THIS WILL BE THIER SECOND SUMMER IN MY POND.IM JUST WORRIED IF I PUT MY BASS IN AND FOR SOME REASON THEY DONT SPAWN,I WILL HAVE PROBLEMS,I GUESS IM JUST LOOKING FOR REASSURANCE TO GO AHEAD AND PUT MY BASS IN, IVE BENN WAITING TO LONG. THANKS HOSTY.

Try this. Catch some larger bgills soon and measure their total lengths. Report their sizes here and I (and others) should be able to predict the likelyhood if they will spawn this June. I think it is a safe bet to stock 2"-4" bass (fingerlings) any time before July 1.

BILL,SOON AS IT DRIES UP A LITTLE I WILL DO THAT AND LET YOU KNOW,I'LL GET BACK WITH YOU SOON THANKS FOR THE HELP. BY THE WAY FOR 1/2 ACRE POND HOW MANY BASS SHOULD I PUT IN TO HAVE QUALITY SIZE BASS 30? THANKS HOSTY.

In your situation I think 30 LMB is a good initial stocking that will result in fast growth without overeating the food base. The main management will be after those bass spawn for the first time. Thinning may then be necessary to maintain good forage food reserves.

BILL,IF I PUT THE BASS IN SAY IN MAY,WHEN WILL THEY SPAWN NEXT MAY OR SO? THEN WHEN WOULD I START THINNING BASS,2 YEARS AFTER THEY SPAWN? DO YOU TRY TO THIN MOST OF THE BASS EXCEPT FOR YOUR ORIGINAL STOCK.
THANKS HOSTY

The first spawn will depend on what size is initially stocked. Three sizes of LMB are often readily available from good well stocked hatcheries in May; 2"-4", 5"-7", 8"-10". The 2"-4" will probably not spawn under most situations until spring of 2007. Other sizes could easily spawn in May of 2006 if food sources are optimum.

Thinning of first year class of bass will depend on the success of the hatch and resulting survival of fingerlings. Also entering the "picture" for thinning of young bass is the availability of appropriate sized forage items for the fingerling bass. It is sort of complicated because everything is inter-related as parts of the food chain/web. At this point in time it is difficult to predict all the possibilities. Wait till you see the young bass and then make some decisions or ask for additional advice.

BILL, IF IT WERE YOUR POND, WHAT WOULD YOU GET FROM MR.FENDER?

If Fenders has larger bass then I would get 10 -12 in the 5"-10" range and 18-22 fingerlings 3"-4". This way you are pretty sure you will get a bass spawn in 2006. Since you have developed a full season of forage fish production, this technique gives you two year classes of bass at the beginning. I think this produces a better predator fish balance in the small northern pond such as yours. Ponds in the north have the reputation of easily becomming over populated with bgill and two year classes of bass at the first predator stocking will reduce this possibility. Resist Fender's suggestion of adding 50 LMB in your 0.5 acre pond. The first bass spawn in 2006 will provide you with more bass than you need.

THANKS BILL FOR YOUR INPUT,I WILL TELL FENDER YOU SAY HELLO.

BILL,I CAUGHT ABOUT A DOZEN B/G OUT F MY POND AND THEY WERE ALL AROUND 5 TO 6 INCHES WILL THEY SPAWN? SHOULD I GO AHEAD WITH THE BASS?