Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations fatheads and golden shinners?

I have a 1 1/2 acre pond. I stocked it Oct 03. I put in 2000 fatheads. How many pounds in 2000 1" fatheads? I also put in 150 4" lmb--250 bg 2-3"--50 redears 2-3" 50 perch small-- 75 hybred gills 2-3" 60 channel cats 4-6". The spring of 04, I put in 2000 more fatheads and 10 grass carp. as of fall of 04, the fatheads have spawn as well as the gills. I pellet feed. The bass are only 9-10". Is this ok. Seems small. The last question is will golden shinners survive in central Ohio and do you think that I need them? Tom

Tom, it sounds like you bought what the hatchery suggested. You'll find a ton of information here, and we all have scenarios where we learn from trial and error. If you had the chance to start over, you should establish the forage base 6 months minimum ahead of the predators. Get more big bgill in your pond immediately, eat the hybreds, and forget about the fatheads...your bass want bigger food. Before you do anything, look around here, get a Relative Weight Chart for Bass, and see how yours compare.

There are approx. 300 1" fatheads in a pound.

Golden Shiners will definitely survive at Baltimore. I'm about 10 minutes North of you (south of Granville, west of Newark) and I have a pond full of GS. They currently comprise more of the biomass in my pond than anything else (maybe everything else put together), and I hope my 12" to 15" LMB and 3 to 6 lbs Channel Cats will continue to significantly beat down the GS numbers this year.

Do you need them? As you often hear at this forum, "it all depends on your goals." I personally attribute this saying to Greg Grimes, but have seen it many times, and it's always true.

If you want a "trophy" LMB pond, the GS may be just what you need. Us Ahians are too far north for Threadfin or Tilapia; I think GS can be a useful forage species for LMB here. They're prolific, torpedo-form, and large enough to make big meals for big bass. But consider all the caveats that go with them: "they're egg stealers, they get too big for LMB to eat, all the older females are sterile due to the ovarian parasite, so they don't produce enough forage." I can't tell you how much credence you should give to these (have only had my pond and GS since 2002), but consider them. They do seem to hang out in the open water where the LMB are less comfortable hunting. I have considered adding HSB, which are supposed to be more of an open water hunter, to help control the GS. I will probably do so in the future if my GS numbers remain higher than I want.

If you want a general fishing pond, to catch nice BG, RES, HBG, and Cats, with the LMB providing control for BG numbers as well as lots of aggressive small bass to catch - you don't need GS and I don't think you want them.

As to your Bass size, after one growing season (June to November 2003), the 3" LMB we stocked had grown to 7" to 12", with most in the 8" to 10" range. I would say your results are pretty equivalent. Based on my experience, you should see them grow another 3" to 4" in 2005.

Once again, thanks everyone. I ask a question a get good answers.

Theo is pretty harsh words for the golden shiners (GS).

1. GS have been reported in some of the literature to eat fish eggs but so do lots of other fish including bgill. The degree of "egg stealing" is probably directly related to the density of the shiners and the amount of their available food. Shortages of natural food supplies of GS probably results in greater amounts of egg predation including their own. Normal densites of GS I think do not eat very many eggs of other fish that make and guard nests. I have a strong GS population in one of my ponds and there does not seem to be a shortage of young fish of any of the resident reproducing species (SMB, perch, bgill, green sunfish, yellow bullheads).

2. I do not think GS get too big for LMB to eat. Quite the contrary. A 15"-16" LM bass can easily eat a 10" GS. However a SMBass may have not prey heavily on the 8"-10" GS.

3. The ovarian parasite and sterilzation of female GS is reported in the older literature but a lot of this research came from minnow farms where GS were raised in crowded conditions. The ovarian parasite problem increases as the density of GS increases. I have what I determine a normal population of GS and all the large females (6"-10") that catch during late June early July are full of eggs. Ovarian parasites do not seem to be a problem in my pond.

4. The main disadvantage to GS as I see it is that you tie up fish biomass into a fish that is not a harvestable or cleanable fish for the table. GS will compete with other fish that eat zooplankton and small insects.

Another disadvantage is if you fish with worms or small live baits the GS can be bait stealers and somewhat annoying. Otherwise I don't see a lot of problems with them. They are beneficial in diversifying your forage base and provide good forage items for fish eating predators.

Once you have LMB established and then try and introduce GS you may have some difficulty due to the LMB eating most of the adult GS before they can develop a breeding population.

PS - My notes indicate that when I counted and weighed 1" fatheads there were closer to 600 per pound. At 2" there are about 300 fatheads to the pound.

Mr. Cody, as usual, makes some good valid points. My main concern with GS is his number 4, tying up biomass. I have not had problems with BG or RES laying enough eggs to reproduce even with the GS present. My LMB were not really large/old enough last year to have been expected to spawn (they didn't).

The GS are horrible bait stealers while you are worm fishing, but kind of fun to play with. I have even caught them on small spinner baits.

My final opinion on GS in a combined BG-RES-LMB emphasis pond will have to wait a couple of years (hindsight always 20-20).

Theo - I think that as your pond matures and the two or three oldest year classes of LMB grow to larger sizes, you will see fewer and fewer GS. I predict in two to three years you will find it harder or difficult to find or catch a golden shiner. The exception to this would be if your pond has lots of weed beds and or shallow water where the bass cannot eliminate the breeding adult GS during late summer, fall, winter and early spring before breeding season. I say this because I predict the older bass (12"-15") will quickly learn to prefer large GS over the bgill and RES until the GS numbers are quite low. Also during this time the LMB numbers have been increasing due to reproduction and good survival due to ample forage. When and if the GS population is dramatically reduced due to predation you may have to re-examine your LMB population structure and a thinning or realignment of their numbers may be needed. I think your pond is not large enough for the LMB to "feel" uncomfortable hunting in open water. For all practical purposes essentially most all ponds are primarily all littoral zone and bass will easily feed and adapt their hunting to anywhere in the pond.

As the GS population decreases due to predation, the biomass of bgill and RES should increase to compensate for less GS biomass and competition. If your pond is like many of those in my area the bgill will outpace the RES and in another few years you will rarely see a young RES. Also, For my information, 1. are you feeding your fish pellets? and 2. where did you get you stock of GS?
I would like you to make a mental note of my predictions and keep us informed about how your GS population is progressing as your LMB population matures. Thanks, and we will hopefully see what develops.

POSTSCRIPT. I had a chance to look up in Freshwater Fishery Biology Vol 1 by Carlander the weight of 1" long fathead minnows to get an estimate of how many there are per pound. 1.1" to 1.2" fatheads weigh 0.36 to 0.6 gram. Weight difference is probably due to plumpness. An actual 1" fathead can weigh only 0.2 g. If you divide 0.36 and 0.6 g into 454g (1 lb) you get 1,261 to 756 1" fatheads per pound. WOW! I don't think you get anywhere near that many when you buy a pound of 1" fatheds due to the weight of excess water that comes along with the net full of fish as they are weighed or separated. I think the actual number you receive is closer to 500 - 600 per pound based on fish length (0.75"-1.5"), variation in size and amount of water in the subsample that the hatchery included in your order. Many fatheads sold in the late summer-fall tend to be smaller (1"-2"), whereas those sold in the spring often are larger (2"-3").

Bill:

As to your "most likely" projections - I sure hope so. It has been interesting the last two years watching the MINIMUM size GS I can see/catch increase as the size of the LMB increases. I know the LMB are eating them from above, while starting this year the BG/RES should start outnumbering them. I really do think that GS are probably a good choice here for a Bass emphasis pond; I just found out after we got started that I'm more interested in large sunfish than trophy bass.

1. Have been feeding Purina Game Fish Chow since the LMB, CC, BG, HBG, and RES went in in 2003. Fed kind of light the first year, heavier last year (4 lbs a day 6-7 days a week while water temp > 60 deg F), which is way below what some consider maximum for a 1 acre pond. CC have grown very well, they are now running 3 to 6 lbs. GS ate the next most amount of the feed, with very little being consumed by BG (I don't think the adult BG were crowded enough to be real hungry).

2. All our fish came from Jones Fish in Newtown, Ohio.

I've got columns for GS size, numbers, and conditions in my fishing log (along with the "big fish"), so I will be recording their expected decline. I also expect RES to become scarcer (relative to BG) and plan on adding smaller adult RES (4" - 6") in the future to replenish them - I like them as much as BG and have actually dreamed about big Redears.

BC and Theo, great discussion on GS. I'm getting more demand for their stocking to diversify bass forage. I appreciate the info.