Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations new hybred tiger and gurella bass???

Got a double! What a hoot! Air temp got up to 75 in central Missouri Sunday and the bass were active. My son hooked up a double on his first cast - two bass on one rattle-trap. One was a Northern Largemouth, the other was a F1 Largemouth. (My F1's have a clipped fin so I can tell them apart). This was our first, direct side-by-side comparison!
Both bass were stocked a year ago at the same time. The F1 was 12" and about 2" longer than the Northern. I know that this one datapoint does not mean much, but it was kind of funny so I had to report. I will report again on the F1 experiment, later this year, when I get more meaningful data.

Jeff & Gregg,

I have a biologist that works for a fish farm in Arkansas tell me the following on a different website. Apparently he may not be totally correct as Jeff's fish made it through the winter in Missouri and of course Gregg feels otherwise too.

Not trying to stir the pot here, but I just thought this would be something you guys would want to comment on and we could have a healthy debate about. I've left the biologist's name off as I don't see any point in that.

"Cecil The F1 bass, tiger bass or whatever will not make it in the great lakes region. They hardly make it in arkansas. We had about a week of ice cover this winter and I had dead floridas and F1 hybrids all over the place. They are best for the coastal regions of florida, georgia, alabama, mississippi, Louisiana and Texas. There is a lot of stuff out there about growh rates, but we have to remember that the number one difference between a florida and a northern is life span. Floridas live longer and thus get bigger. Northerns have to cope with stressful winters and do not live as long. Maximum size has a lot to do with time. Growth rate has a lot to do with available forage and thus primary productivity of water body (or feeding rate and feed quality if farm raised)."

Comments? Testimonials of F1's for your location?

Could it be his mortaliies were primarily Floridas and he didn't differentiate?

The F1 Debate is good and I appreciate all feedback. There is not much information about F1's in the central US - (probably because the F1's just don't do well in the central/ Midwest?)
I have seen some promising reports from Oklahoma, Arkansas and Tennesee. I thought this was interesting:

OKLAHOMA’S “TOP-21” LARGEMOUTH BASS

ANGLER WEIGHT DATE LOCATION PHENOTYPE

William Cross 14 lb 11 oz 3-14-99 Broken Bow Lake F
Roger Hockersmith 14 lb 10 oz 3-25-93 Mountain Lake F1
Ronnie Henson 14 lb 0 oz 6-23-93 Comanche Co. Pond F
Ricky Patterson 13 lb 10 oz 3-18-95 Mountain Lake F1
Paul Tasker 13 lb 8 oz 3-22-90 Lake Fuqua F1
Diane Baker 13 lb 8 oz 10-04-94 Sardis Lake F
Johnny Owens 13 lb 7 oz 2-27-97 Lake Murray na
Mark Robinett 13 lb 6 oz 3-25-95 Mountain Lake F1
Randy Faddis 13 lb 2 oz 9-16-95 McIntosh Co. Pond F
David Flegler 13 lb 1 oz 4-09-99 Sardis Lake F
Willis Hall 13 lb 1 oz 3-08-92 Sardis Lake F
Stacy Fuller 13 lb 0 oz 4-17-93 Sardis Lake F
William Gilbert 12 lb 13 oz 3-26-89 Lake Fuqua F1
Harrison Johnson 12 lb 13 oz 12-30-91 Broken Bow Lake na
Danny Bloodworth 12 lb 13 oz 3-20-95 Mountain Lake F1
Phillip Carter 12 lb 13 oz 9-10-96 McGee Creek Lake F
Chuck Justice 12 lb 12 oz 9-07-91 Sardis Lake F
Chuck Justice 12 lb 11 oz 7-11-99 McGee Creek Lake na
Carl Crawford 12 lb 10 oz 3-12-89 Lake Ozzie Cobb F
Gene Trailkill 12 lb 10 oz 3-24-93 Mountain Lake F
David McDonald 12 lb 10 oz 4-14-94 Lake Lawtonka na

Phenotypes: N = Northern LMB; F = Florida LMB; F1 = First generation cross; Fx= Second generation cross; na = genetic information unavailable.

*Revised 7/31/99 from ODWC Rod & Line Records, ODWC Angler Recognition Program entries, and the Oklahoma Fishery Research Lab Cooperating Taxidermist program. Ties are listed in chronological order.

Jeff,
Interesting info.
Cecil,
No expert but I know F1's do just fine in KY. Great Lakes yeah I think that would be a poor investment.

He could have lost pure FLorida for sure but who knows???

One point in the quote that contradicated my thoughts. He said Florida live longer that's why they are bigger????

I have been told by many biologist just the oppostie. The Florida bass has a longer growing season in the climates where he can make it. This reuslts in faster growth but also they do not live as long. On the other hand Northern bass grow slowly in cool temps but live longer. Maybe a topic for another thread but not sure I trust this guy after that comment that I think is off the mark. What does others think about age of LMB?

Greg,

I agree. All the literature I have seen says northern bass live longer, but obviously have a shorter growing season. We allegedly have bass that live 15 or 16 years up here. They look like torpedos with an oversize head and razor thin keel by then, but they are old.

I have to wonder if there is some competitive axe to grind here with American Sportsfish. He also has a low opinion of the Georgia Giants, but I have actually seen scientific data recently that shows faster growth with the GG's vs. regular green sunfish hybrids. After seeing some GG's up close I believe they have some shellcracker in them which would explain an ultimate larger size -- but who knows?

I do have a lot of respect for this biologist though.

Hey Cecil,
I would love to see the GG data.

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/aquaculture/2003forum/Hybrid%20Bluegill.pdf

You'll have to use the zoom in tool to read the text. I would go to the conclusion.

I believe Bill Cody sent me something too. I'll have to look and see if it's the same one or another study.

I was skeptical of Georgia Giants but here is data that says otherwise. Of course this was not a study to prove GG's grown bigger or faster but the evidence is there.

I've been following this post for awhile, but I have a question about the data. Why do they recommend a 42:18 blend of protein and fat, when that blend of feed wasn't even used in the experiment? In the Materials and Methods section, they claim to use 42:16. I know the difference is minor, but it also would seem to be a minor difference between a 40% protein diet and a 42%, but look at the data. There is a fairly large difference in the growth rates between the two. Maybe I missed something. Too bad they don't include information like water temperature, pH, and other more detailed info.

Chris

Chris,

Good questions. I'm ashamed to say I really haven't scrutinized the study. I've been in a time crunch lately.

Just a guess without really looking at the the data, but it's possible the 42/16 was made specifically for the study and is not available, and the closest thing is 42/18 off the shelf. But that's just a guess.

I may have a more detailed version of study that Bill Cody sent me. I'll try and find the time to look.

Cecil,
Thanks
BTW I might be doing a study on diff feeds affect on coppernose bluegill growth this summer with an aquaculture intern. If it turns out we will see if Bob wants to have a small writeup in PB. We will let you know.

I did provide Cecil with the information for the Hybrid bgill study that included Georgia giants. The web location study that Cecil cited above appears to me to be a poster session or presentation that the authors presented at a professional meeting. The inforamtion that I gave Cecil was a reprint of the published research dealing with the same data.

Citation is: "Effect of Diet and Strain on Growth and Performance in Hybrid Bluegills" by B.M.Stinefelt, J.C. Eya, K.J. Semmens, K.P.Blemings. 2004. North American Journal of Aquaculure 66:312-318.

The reference in the poster presentation to food of 42%protein 18%fat was an error in the poster presentation; 42:18 was not used in the growth study. It should have read 42:16 which explains the discrepancy that "tritonvt" pointed out.

Additional details of the study:
1. fish were raised in 40 g aquarium; 30 fish (duplicates) per flow thru aquarium, 73F-78.8F.

2. all fish starting size were 4.2"-4.5" and were grown for 12 wks, fed to satiation 2x per day. End - Ave. sizes were GG=5.25" (Ken's Fish Farm Alpaha,GS and regular hybrid BG 4.87" from Logan Hallow Fish Farm Murphysboro, IL.

3. lowest feed conversion of both test fish was with the 32% protein feed; best conversion as with the 42% protein feed. Note the analytical analysis of the 42% feed from Melick Feeds, PA actually contained 44.5%protein. However the 45/20 diet resulted in reduced growth rate of both types of hybrids. Starch levels the feeds used ranged from 18.8%-37.5%.

4. Authors noted there was a high degree of variability in fish growth within tanks. I think this was due to individual fish competition and territorial behavior within the confines of each tank. This even in the pond setting can affect feeding behavior and growth.

5. Overall GG growth rate was four times that of comparison HBG and GG achieved three times better feed converision than regular HBG.

6. Keep in mind that this was an aquarium study not a pond study, it ran for only 12 weeks and growth rates may be different when fish reach maturity when protein requirements could change. More research is needed with these fish.

Has there been any study of the overall health of confined fish fed to satiation on a daily basis? This would appear to be counterproductive for a pond type situation. One part of me likes the idea of raising bass the size of sumo wrestlers but they have to live long enough to continue their growth rate. I don't know anything about fish health regarding fat build up, etc.

The point is; Are the fish healthy?

Hybrid vigor is usually followed by hybrid depression. Bruce Condello has provided the best explaination of this that I have seen.

In the longer term, is this happening with any of the fish being talked about here?

All these questions are job security in the form of student driven and grant funded future research projects for college professors like Dr. Willis.