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#515878 - 01/19/20 03:27 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: Bill Cody]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 1109
Loc: in the mountains
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Why is doming considered a problem? Reference the post date in this thread for me for the answer.


Bill,

Here is part of my post from after my trip to the cabin
"I have to say this was an EXTREMELY informative trip. I actually made a shocking discovery.

For about 10 days or two weeks leading up to the trip the holes in the ice appeared to be frozen up. When we got there, there was a small hole open in the deep water above the quad diffuser. Snow that night covered it up and that hole was never to be seen again. The pump was running as normal, PSI gauge looked good and I was confused. Where was all the air going? My brother in law and I got out on the ice to measure the DO and we were at 1.5 PPM and temp was 33.6 F. Very disappointing, but I was assuming it would be bad with the lack of open water. While we were on the ice we started thinking we were seeing a "hump" in the ice. We debated back and forth for most of the day whether it was a hump or shadows playing tricks on us. The next day I got a rifle out and took a shot at it and IT "BLEW UP"!! I use "blew up" because I can't think of a better way to describe it. It did not make a sound or literally explode, but it WAS dramatic. After it happened, there were chunks of ice several feet away from the hole. There was still no open water, but all of the snow/ice was laying in the hole like broken glass and there was and obvious depression in the shape of a circle where the dome had been. Unfortunately, no video of the shot because I really didn't think anything was going to happen. Here is a pic right after the shot."

Here is the pic I mentioned


After the hole freezes closed for any amount of time, when the air kicks on next it is lifting the ice up off the water before a hole is melted open. Fairly quickly the water cannot contact the ice. This is preventing the diffusers from making holes. It is still domed over and frozen solid as of today.

The last day I was there I actually watched the dome form. The hole had frozen closed over night. When the aeration kicked on that morning I could see the water moving around under the ice. After about ten minutes I could only see the water intermittently touching the ice. After 15 minutes or so I never saw the water touch the ice again.
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#515897 - 01/19/20 10:56 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
esshup Offline
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With the cold temps the past few days I turned my aeration system on today. I'll get a picture of the diffuser plume tomorrow. It's roughly 3' below the surface.

Today I woke up to 5F, and it never warmed up past 17F. It is supposed to be around 8F tonight.
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#515908 - 01/20/20 08:34 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
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Scott

Is the diffuser sitting on the bottom in 3' of water or suspended 3' below the surface over deeper water? Can you get out on the ice and take some measurements to see how far that water is moving?

It would be interesting to see if you could make yours dome up. Run the aeration for a few hours and turn it off. Repeat the next day.
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#515915 - 01/20/20 11:31 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
esshup Offline
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Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Scott

Is the diffuser sitting on the bottom in 3' of water or suspended 3' below the surface over deeper water?


Suspended in approximately 10 feet of water, depending on the pond water level.

Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Can you get out on the ice and take some measurements to see how far that water is moving?


If we ever get ice thick enough to safely walk on I will take temp/DO readings on the opposite side of the pond and report. I'll note how far away from the diffuser plume the readings were taken and at what depth.

Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr

It would be interesting to see if you could make yours dome up. Run the aeration for a few hours and turn it off. Repeat the next day.


Nope, can't make a dome. I can let the ice form for a few days to a week, turn the system on and within an hour to 2 hours the hole is open.

This year unless something changes, it will be difficult to test. While we had sub zero temps in November, the whole pond opened up again in early Dec. We had single digit temps starting early Sat. am, warming up to the teens in the afternoon and the same temps again yesterday, but by the upcoming wekend and continuing until Feb we are supposed to have highs in the upper 30's and lows in the upper 20's, so I don't know how much ice will form. I'll go get a picture in a little bit of the hole that is open from running the system continually for the past 36 hours. The system was started when there was a couple of inches of ice on the pond and a few inches of snow, and the temps have been in the 10-20 degree range for the past 36 hours.

If the problem with your pond is the dome forming overnight because of only having juice available during the day have you thought about a battery bank to run it at night? I really think moving the diffusers shallower will help eliminate any doming issues. You will see what I mean with my picture.
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#515972 - 01/21/20 12:49 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 1109
Loc: in the mountains
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Why is doming considered a problem? Reference the post date in this thread for me for the answer.


Bill C - did you see this? Have you ever dealt with the ice doming up? Reposted on 1/19/2020


Scott - I already have a pretty substantial battery bank. It is 680AH at 48V. I am not sure what it would take to run 24-7 up there, but I AM sure whatever it is is out of my budget! lol

I am hoping that shallow diffusers combined with the pipe will eliminate it.

Pretty obvious now that the doming is what has been killing my windmill hole as well!! NOT the snow.


Edited by wbuffetjr (01/21/20 12:49 PM)
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#515974 - 01/21/20 03:11 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
esshup Offline
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I will have some data collected in a few weeks. Here is the situation:

A customer wanted to put in an aeration system to de-ice the water around his pier on a local public lake. A 2 cfm compressor was ordered, and 3 single disk air stations were installed under the pier. The pier is "T" shaped. Water under the pier varies from approx. 18" near shore to 48" at the end where the "T" is.

With the drop in temps last week the lake iced over. In the 5F temps the lake also froze over around the pier when the 35 mpg winds pushed ice around the pier. Winds were from the South, and had a 350 yd. straight shot across the lake.

The system was able to open an area approximately 5'-6' in diameter over each diffuser disk. Not enough to keep all the ice away from the pier.

I am going to swap out the 2 cfm compressor for one that outputs approximately 9 cfm and run it for a few days until different diffuser disks arrive (coarser bubbles). I will then swap back to the 2 cfm compressor and see how it performs with the different (coarser) diffusers, and then swap back to the 9 cfm compressor with the coarser disks. I will then see if I can retrofit some 2"x12" air stones in place of the disks and see how they do with each compressor.

One last possible option is swapping in a Regenerative Blower with 1" airline and the 2"x12" stones.

Pictures and a report will follow as data is generated.
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#515977 - 01/21/20 05:42 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 6063
Loc: Boone County Illinois
I have seen doming twice on my pond in the last five years while running aeration to open a hole in the ice/snow. When it occurs, a hole at the shoreline eventually appears, releasing the pressure, and the dome eases back down. Once the dome "collapses" the diffuser goes ahead and opens the normal hole on location over the diffuser.


Edited by Bill D. (01/21/20 05:44 PM)
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#515978 - 01/21/20 05:51 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill Cody Offline
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I have never had doming of the ice above the diffuser. Maybe this is because I don't start my aerator until the ice is 5"-6" or more thick. Ice that thick will have a great amount of weight and it is not likely to lift off the ice. The bubbling then just "eats" a hole in the ice.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/21/20 05:51 PM)
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#516000 - 01/22/20 06:22 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 1109
Loc: in the mountains
Esshup - I will be looking forward to what you find. Anyway to measure temps out from the dock to see how far the water is moving?

Bill D - that is interesting. How long did it take for the hole at the shoreline to open up? How far is the diffuser from the shore? Last year my holes disappeared for two months!! I am now assuming they were domed over the entire time! Currently I have been domed over since 1/08!! Pumping ~ 8 CFM. I just don't understand where all that air can be going!!

Bill C - I guess the problem with mine is it is intermittent because my overall ice very thick. It was 7-8" thick 20 yards or so from the hole. The ice freezes back up overnight and then the next morning lifts up in about 15 minutes. Maybe it doesn't dome every time, but once it domes up enough the aeration is negated until something ends the dome.


Edited by wbuffetjr (01/22/20 09:23 AM)
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#516014 - 01/23/20 12:16 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
esshup Offline
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Having that thick ice near the hole is normal. I've measured ice thickness in my pond and it was uniform until I got within 20 feet of the open hole, then it dropped an inch in thickness. I was drilling a hole every 10' as I approached the open water.

Here is a picture of my pond from today. The hole is about 40'-50' diameter.


Here is a close up of the plume coming from the single diffuser.
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#516015 - 01/23/20 01:02 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: esshup]
esshup Offline
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Picture from the opposite side of the pond
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#516021 - 01/23/20 09:18 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 6063
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
...

Bill D - that is interesting. How long did it take for the hole at the shoreline to open up? How far is the diffuser from the shore? ...


Interestingly, the "relief" hole that opens by the shore is not the closest shore to the diffuser. The hole opens approximately 100 feet from the diffuser. Only thing I can think of is the ice must lift a little more in that area. I don't know for sure how long it takes for the hole to appear at the shore, I think it must vary with ice thickness. I can tell you it takes a lot longer than when there is no doming and the hole appears over the diffuser.


Edited by Bill D. (01/23/20 09:26 AM)
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#516058 - 01/24/20 08:42 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 1109
Loc: in the mountains
Bill D - that is interesting. My closest diffuser to shore is 130-140'. I would THINK that would also be close enough to vent air. Unfortunately, while I was there I could not find any evidence of an"escape hatch". Maybe I just could not see it. You would think that all that air MUST be going SOMEWHERE. However, you did also say once yours vented the diffuser was able to open a hole. How long did that take? Mine has been domed over for over two weeks now. As usual I am so confused! I have got a lot of air that seems to be going to the Bermuda Triangle.

Scott - I wonder if a PART of why yours does not dome is how close your diffuser is to shore?? It seems that would immediately vent any air if the ice started to lift. I only mentioned my ice thickness in response to Bill Cody saying he waited until his ice was 5-6" thick before starting aeration and maybe that much ice weight discouraged doming.
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#516089 - 01/25/20 12:41 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
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Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Scott - I wonder if a PART of why yours does not dome is how close your diffuser is to shore?? It seems that would immediately vent any air if the ice started to lift. I only mentioned my ice thickness in response to Bill Cody saying he waited until his ice was 5-6" thick before starting aeration and maybe that much ice weight discouraged doming.


Possibly, but when I start the diffuser with ice on the pond and no snow I can watch the air bubble move and it seems to move to the middle of the pond and east, which is to the left in the picture that is taken from the opposite shore.

I had it out further from shore, but one year 2 of my Springer Spaniels went in after a few geese. That was fine when the air temp was in the upper 20's and one brought a grey barnyard goose up to the house (alive). A few days later the temp dropped like a rock to sub zero temps and this time when they went into the water after the geese (I let them out to go to the bathroom, NOT to chase the geese - the pond is 150 yds. from the house) and they got so cold that they couldn't climb back up on the ice to get out. I DID get them out, but I can't tell you how close I was to loosing them both.

I didn't want to take that chance again and moved the diffuser closer to the shore so anything that went in could get to shore to get out and that's how I set up all winter diffusers that we sell locally. I advise any customers that purchase aeration systems to set them up that way and why.
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#516107 - 01/25/20 04:07 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 1109
Loc: in the mountains
Yeah that would suck!

Some good news today. Looks like one of the diffusers broke through. Not sure what ended the dome. Maybe it vented out to shore like Bill D was saying, no idea. Looks pretty close to being open water though. Interestingly, the power draw of the pump dropped even more. So the domes are for sure creating extra back pressure on the pump.

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#516137 - 01/26/20 05:16 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill Cody Offline
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When I first start my diffuser during thicker ice cover (3"-6") I go out and ice auger a hole above the diffuser. This right away allows air to escape and bubbling at surface quickly melts into a larger ice free area. Once I get an open area that refreezes at night, the next day's aeration period fairly quickly melts the ice that froze overnight.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/26/20 05:18 PM)
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#516159 - 01/27/20 02:53 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 2173
Loc: West Michigan
Interesting on how your current draw or load readout may tell you what is actually going on. You can't do more investigation or auger a hole on demand since you aren't there.

It does make for an interesting solution... could you rig up a few rounds of plastic explosives or dynamite, put them in a strategic place between shore and the typical place where a dome will show up and detonate using remote commands? You could place 4-5 charges there under water and over the course of a bad winter, detonate when needed to keep the blast zone open and keep any air that wants to build up under the ice above the diffuser moving over to the blast zone and then venting out there?

There has to be someone on this forum who has experience with explosives?

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#516168 - 01/27/20 07:19 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
nehunter Offline


Registered: 07/20/15
Posts: 131
Loc: SE, NE
Have you ever considered using water and not air to keep a hole opened? A small pump shooting water straight up. May keep ice and snow off a small spot for your aerator to work. It takes a lot to freeze moving water. I know some cattle tanks use this method to keep them from freezing.
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#516182 - 01/28/20 08:49 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 1109
Loc: in the mountains
Bill C - 10-4. I understand now. Maybe part of the difference for me is how much ice can form over night between run times. I don't know. I do know it is happening regularly though and appears to have been the problem for this year and last year at least. Probably the problem with the Koenders windmill the whole time.


Canyon - Love the dynamite idea, haha!! Unfortunately that seems like that might kill the fish itself!

Nehunter - I HAVE thought about using water instead of air. For now, I think we possibly have the air method whipped though. We think the vent pipe has a VERY high probability of solving the dome issue. Combine that with suspending the diffusers over deep water just a few feet below the ice and it might be a one, two punch!
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#516190 - 01/28/20 12:08 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill Cody Offline
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If ice doming is a big concern consider moving a diffuser closer to shore as noted by esshup. Diffuser 20 ft from shore would likely allow air to vent at the shoreline. Something to try.

I think with your severe winter conditions a pump spray technique would result in a massive frozen ice sculpture. Likely more trouble that benefit. It could work if the pond did not receive extended weeks of 0F temps.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/28/20 12:12 PM)
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#516192 - 01/28/20 12:46 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: canyoncreek]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 1109
Loc: in the mountains
Bill C - I am actually leaning towards trying that with one diffuser just for experimentation. I am not will to take to many chance, but at the same time I would like to learn what will work and what won't, what works better, etc.

Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
Interesting on how your current draw or load readout may tell you what is actually going on.

Canyon this part has been VERY interesting!! Today is going to be a nice test to validate how well these power reading actually work or not. With the hole open the pump was drawing ~900 watts. This morning the pump has been in the upper 900s all morning. If it keeps that up, I am going to guess my hole is closed back up when the pic comes in this afternoon.
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#516384 - 02/03/20 08:43 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 1109
Loc: in the mountains
Well.... doing better than last year, but still not great. Last year there was no visible hole for basically the end of January, all of February, March and half of April.

Interestingly, the single diffuser has opened up a hole - maybe because it is closer to shore. The dual diffuser has created some gray in the ice and snow but still no hole (about 7:00 from the open hole). The dual in the deep water at the far end of the pond looks like it MIGHT have a hole open, but it is nothing big (that hole doesn't show up well when small due to distance from camera and angle of pic). No sign at all of a hole from the windmill.

Unfortunately for the holes more snow on the way. Maybe a LOT of snow....

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#516404 - 02/04/20 12:48 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
esshup Offline
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Good luck, half my pond completely thawed out today......
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