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There good reasons why crappie should not be stocked in a small impoundment. Even so, hatcheries produce them and people stock them anyway. Some have success while others fail. I think in most cases, when a BOW owner stocks crappie ... they do so because it ranks above all others to be the fish he wants and that a strong motivation for this is that he likes them for eating.

Let this thread then focus around how BOW owners who are stocking crappie as a preferred fish might ensure he doesn't end up with a pond full of dinks. In my way of thinking, a dink is a fish that is hardly worth the trouble of harvesting. For me, this is a crappie smaller than 6" though many I am sure consider even larger crappie to small too harvest.

A crappie is a fish that is both a forage panfish and a predator depending on its size. They don't tend to reproduce until they attain a size that they become primarily piscivorous and when they do reproduce ... they tend to have an advantage over other YOY due to a combination of mouth gape and earlier hatch dates. Crappie tend to grow faster and larger than lepomis and in as much as this is true have potential to produce a greater harvestable weight of fish annually than lepomis.

Given that crappie are quasi predators, it is an interesting study to consider the scenario where humans and larger crappie work in tandem as the apex predators. In this scenario, the humans harvest crappie that are too large for the predator crappie to eat. The predator crappie do the hard work of cropping small crappie and in so doing reduce the number of them such that those that remain are able to attain a harvestable size by the end of their second summer. The humans thin this class of crappie just as they reach the piscivorous size allowing those that remain to be replacement predators of small crappie. Rather than allowing older crappie to pile up (years w/o harvest), the humans also harvest crappie after they achieve a minimum milestone. This spreadsheet is an example of such a scenario.

The first line represents annual recruitment of O-year class crappie. The scenario relies on larger crappie consuming enough YOY to restrict recruitment to around 400 individuals. Now this probably isn't practical, the large crappie probably need help from another predator. In any event, given a sufficient number of large piscivorous crappie(but not too many) we may imagine an optimum crappie size structure that is sufficient with the help of humans cropping midsize crappie to be a sustainable production system capable of producing an annual harvest of many midsized crappie and a few large specimens.

To be sure, I wouldn't recommend stocking crappie without a predator. Even so, if one wants to maximize production of crappie he only wants enough additional predation to limit recruitment to the desired level. It is better that these predators consume fish larger than the crappie tend to eat and smaller than the humans are harvesting. Provided the humans do their harvest, the number of predators required need not be large in number or in combined biomass. They need not reproduce provided they are systematically replaced. In fact it is better that they do not reproduce. Furthermore, by consuming fish larger than the piscivorous crappie can eat, the predator doesn't compete heavily with crappie of any size and their contribution is to enhance the production of harvestable sized crappie.

I consider such a system both manageable and sustainable. A key take away for me is that it is important to harvest crappie primarily at the length they are just becoming piscivorous. This maximizes the production of crappie(the weight of harvested fish are largely gained on invertebrates) and it insures that the remaining crappie can grow large and are in good condition to reproduce the following spring (providing a new crop of recruits and forage for the large remaining crappie).

BOW owners who envision a BOW with many large piscivorous crappie have unreasonable expectations. One can sustainably grow a few/acre each year but if he has a pond full of them the situation is untenable. For example, to grow one hundred 1 lb crappie to 1.5 lbs requires 1000 lbs of fish forage. In a 1 acre BOW this is just undoable. If crappie are desired, one needs expectations that are appropriate and he may need to redefine what size of crappie he deems harvestable. An 8" crappie may not be deemed harvestable by some folks and if one is of this bent ... then he must have predators in the BOW that harvest this size crappie or that reduce the number 8" recruits to a very small number (eg ~ 10 to 20 annually).

I think crappie are a doable fish, even in small BOWs ... but we need to understand how to exploit them and not just leave them to their own devices. Some more thoughts on maximizing crappie production . . .

* I think I would avoid _any_ stocking of lepomis. This is not to say that they can't feed large crappie, but you just don't need them. They will compete with crappie and not contribute to their production overall.

* I would also avoid stocking GSH. While these will feed the larger crappie, they will intercept food chain of the smaller crappie which are already efficient utilizers of zooplankton lowering the growth of smaller crappie.

* I would stock locally available minnow species. Where native, I would ensure Gambusia are present and would even consider annual reintroduction. Swingle found that the addition of only 1 lb/acre could increase production of BG by 140 lbs/acre in a fertilized BOW. Quite remarkable indeed.

One last thing. You don't have to know how many crappie are in the BOW. You must know how many fish there should be over 8". Select a number of >8" fish each year and fin clip them. These are reserved until they reach 12 or 13". After these have been selected ... you may harvest any unclipped fish > 8". Take all you can, each year you have another group of 8" fish to crop. Each year you need to select some more >8" crappie to fin clip. Invite your friends if you don't want as many as the BOW will produce, saving them will only undermine the production of crappie. A BOW tends to fill itself with fish, the production will only be determined by the space left by those fish that died. If very little dies, there will be very little production.

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crappie Predator.xlsx (12.22 KB, 457 downloads)
Last edited by jpsdad; 09/02/19 05:35 PM.

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Users who missed it or people stumbling on this thread through Google might be interested in my recent thread about the prospects for flathead catfish to control crappie numbers. Some of the users here brought up some really interesting science in that thread.

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Based on my experience I would avoid crappie. My 1 3/4 ac pond was not managed for years when I bought it this spring and was full of 7-10" crappie. The bluegill and bass populations were lower than expected with most bass being small or quite large (have only caught bass 1lb and under and at least 2 bass over 4-5lbs. I estimate there are 2-6 large bass over 4lb and about 25-50 under 1lb bass. Have not caught anything inbetween the extremes.

I believe the crappie had reduced the bluegill population by predation to point that the bass were mostly starving unless they got big enough to eat crappie or white perch.

That said the crappie are good eating and provided good action in the spring. Suposedly they have been in the pond for at least 30 years. I'm not sure how practical it would be to try to clip fins on hundreds of crappie - I've taken out and eaten 125 crappie in my pond - pretty much eat all I catch unless I don't catch enough for a meal. I intend to contine with this - I figure it will be pretty much impossible for me to get all the crappie out but I should be able to keep them in check.

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nvcdl,

Given its history, I am not at all surprised. Also at the rate you are harvesting, I agree you will have more trouble ahead.

As far fin-clipping hundreds of crappie ... you obviously misread what was written. In the scenario, only 10 fish are fin-clipped per acre ... easily doable. Every fish greater than 8" is harvested except for fin clipped fish. Fin clipped fish are only harvested when they exceed the minimum length say 12 or 13 inches. The scenario anticipate the need to harvest 400 crappie per acre but it does not include any bluegill or LMB that reproduce.

As to your current situation I do think that it might be best start over because you obviously don't have a priority of having crappie. Crappie are not helping your situation and there is no hope you will make a dent in them at the rate you are harvesting them (meanwhile hating every minute of it).

To all else. I already stated it above. If you think you want crappie ... plan on harvesting almost all of the year 1 fall crappie (fall after 2nd summer) or you likely have a huge mess after a few years of non-harvest. If you don't want to harvest crappie and you still think you want them ... then you need a predator that is up to the task of doing the cropping that you don't want to do.

Last edited by jpsdad; 09/02/19 08:17 PM.

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Quote:
I believe the crappie had reduced the bluegill population by predation to point that the bass were mostly starving unless they got big enough to eat crappie or white perch


nvdll, when you say "white perch" do you mean these or the crappie?

Last edited by jpsdad; 09/02/19 08:20 PM.

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I had never heard/read the statement by Swingle. Interesting but it seems to me that they would be almost immediately eaten in an established pond.

Also, Swingle mostly wrote prior to it being common to feed our BG. I wonder if that could be a consideration.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
I had never heard/read the statement by Swingle. Interesting but it seems to me that they would be almost immediately eaten in an established pond.

Also, Swingle mostly wrote prior to it being common to feed our BG. I wonder if that could be a consideration.


That may be because Swingle didn't quite say it like that. He referenced stocking BG in fertilized pond with and without Gambusia. The Gambusia were stocked at the rate of 1629 adults per hectare. Divided by 2.47 it is converted to 659 adult Gambusia per acre (~1 lb). The Gambusia were stocked in tandem with 3900 2" BG. At 218 BG/lb this is about 18 lbs of BG. The production from May 2 to Nov 15 was 349.4 kg/hectare with Gambusia and 186.4 kg/hectare without. The only difference between treatments were the Gambusia. I converted things to lbs/acre as courtesy.

Swingle reported that most of mosquito fish had been eaten by the time of harvest which was done by draining the ponds. The BG starting weight was only a little over 8 kilos so the weight of BG expanded by 4200%. In the reference, Swingle didn't mention whether the initial stocking of BG produced a generation that was part of the production number. I think, however, he stocked the BG at such density so as to inhibit reproduction of BG and still attain a harvestable size of 6".

I'll comment more on this and provide a link to the reference later but have just run out of time for the moment ...


Last edited by jpsdad; 09/03/19 04:27 PM.

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Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Quote:
I believe the crappie had reduced the bluegill population by predation to point that the bass were mostly starving unless they got big enough to eat crappie or white perch


nvdll, when you say "white perch" do you mean these or the crappie?


I mean white perch. Previous owner bucket stocked them years ago. Have caught a total of 3 around 10" long.

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Originally Posted By: jpsdad
nvcdl,


As to your current situation I do think that it might be best start over because you obviously don't have a priority of having crappie. Crappie are not helping your situation and there is no hope you will make a dent in them at the rate you are harvesting them (meanwhile hating every minute of it).



I don't hate the crappie - they are good action and good eating when they are biting. I think I made a pretty good dent in the population.

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Really enjoying this thread..... I’m one of the minority’s on BCP in smaller ponds. Keep it going so we can learn what we are doing right as well as wrong

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OK so you can find the Swingle paper on fish production here.

Anyone inclined to read this paper will soon make the connection that the production system described in my initial post was inspired by none other than Swingle himself. If one digs into to the SS again, he will notice a number in the lower left that holds the spring standing weight. He will also notice just how small the number is (32 lbs per acre). This weight represents the goal for standing weight after harvesting the prior years production. You will also notice column G, which is the goal for the standing weight of Crappie in the Fall after spring weight fish have grown a season. You might ask how can the weight of crappie more than quintuple in a single season? The answer is that ... thanks to the harvest ... in the Spring the BOW is no where near its carrying capacity. Prey organisms like Daphnia, insects, shrimp, and gambusia are free to flourish and proliferate. They bind the excess energy that the greatly reduced (by harvest) biomass of crappie cannot consume early in the season. As the crappie grow they consume more and more of them. Even so, because the crappie standing weight was initially very low, the crappie could only eat so many and it was this limited predation that allows prey organisms to proliferate and produce food that will be later utilized by the crappie.

NOW STOP. What did the harvest do? In a sense it made the BOW a second year BOW again. This kind of intense harvest is able to sustain a BOW's youth. How does one kill this production system? He begins by noticing the relative weights are off the charts and begins to imagine the Fall crop of crappie will double their weight next year and foregoes a harvest. To find out what happens when one does this all you have to do is change the 10 to 400 in Row 5 column C. If you look at the forage requirement to grow 400 crappie from 8.3 inches to 10.1 inches (.28 lbs per crappie) you will find the forage requirement just for this year class is 1680 lbs.

What makes this untenable, is that that when crappie attain a length of 8", they transition from primarily invertebrates to a diet increasingly dependent on fish prey. Their success in reproduction is linked to the abundance of fish prey as well. They just quit desiring invertebrates as much and put increasing effort into feeding on fish. Come Spring the BOW is loaded with fish that are hungry. They greatly restrict the abundance that their prey can achieve in the coming growing season. In the fall, instead of a BOW full of 10" and 8" fish, the result is more dismal. Last years 8 inchers may have only achieved 8.5 inches, last years 4.4 inchers may have only achieved 6 inches and the current year's YOY don't make 4". Anyway, one can clearly understand how the production swiftly declines and nothing grows until some of them begin to starve to death or begin dying of old age.

A bow is rejuvenated by harvest. For crappie, they can reach a harvest size by end of their second year of life. If the harvest focuses on this year class then production can be maximized. Look guys, 124 lbs per acre is a doable harvest in a 1 acre bow and many BOWs could outperform this.

Lets take a look at predators now. The last three year classes are crappie that are consuming mostly fish. The plan greatly limits their abundance by harvesting the year 1 class yet they still comprise almost two thirds the Spring standing weight of about 18 lbs per acre. The final 3 classes have a forage requirement of 198 lbs/acre. This forage requirement could be provided both by crappie YOY and supplemented by another non-competing prey species like gambusia. Two things can break the system. Insufficient harvest of 1 year crappie and/or too much recruitment of O year fish. For the latter, an increase in the biomass of predators is called for, for the former, predators capable of cropping the harvest deficiency is indicated. One knows these are problems when year 1 and year 2 fish do not make their length/weight milestones.

Last edited by jpsdad; 09/03/19 04:58 PM.

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Hoping blue cats will keep me from doing this higher math:)

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Originally Posted By: nvcdl
Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Quote:
I believe the crappie had reduced the bluegill population by predation to point that the bass were mostly starving unless they got big enough to eat crappie or white perch


nvdll, when you say "white perch" do you mean these or the crappie?


I mean white perch. Previous owner bucket stocked them years ago. Have caught a total of 3 around 10" long.


Let me just say that crappie, though they may be terrible problem for you, may be the least of your problems. Saint abyssal references a thread above that discusses the white perch and problems it causes.

I noticed you mentioned that you don't hate the crappie. I just felt you kind of resented having to remove them from the pond. I don't know what else you may have been able to harvest, but at the very least the crappie seem to be earning their keep as far as your tummy is concerned.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Originally Posted By: nvcdl
Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Quote:
I believe the crappie had reduced the bluegill population by predation to point that the bass were mostly starving unless they got big enough to eat crappie or white perch


nvdll, when you say "white perch" do you mean these or the crappie?


I mean white perch. Previous owner bucket stocked them years ago. Have caught a total of 3 around 10" long.


Let me just say that crappie, though they may be terrible problem for you, may be the least of your problems. Saint abyssal references a thread above that discusses the white perch and problems it causes.

I noticed you mentioned that you don't hate the crappie. I just felt you kind of resented having to remove them from the pond. I don't know what else you may have been able to harvest, but at the very least the crappie seem to be earning their keep as far as your tummy is concerned.


I don't "resent" or "hate" any fish. Just can see how crappie can throw a pond out of balance. Luckily my crappie are not terribly stunted. The white perch don't seem to be out of control - only have caught 3 and they were all very nice sized ones. Just got back from fishing today - the crappie were not in a biting mood - only caught a tiny bass. The crappie bite has been off for last month or so. I intend to hit them hard in spring when they start biting. I've added bluegill to the pond and will try to add some F1 bass next year once the bluegill population is recovered.

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I was going to mention that your crappie were a decent size. What you are doing can only improve your BOW.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Originally Posted By: jpsdad
I was going to mention that your crappie were a decent size. What you are doing can only improve your BOW.


Added 400 small 2" bluegills/redears in late April

Added 275 medium bluegills in June

Been hand feeding the bluegill over last couple months - seems like the majority I see feeding are the ones I stocked in June and they have grown at least an 1-1.5" since stocking.

Bluegill seem to be spawning continously this summer as I see small fry in shallows.

My plan is to keep feeding bluegill - maybe add some more this month if I can get them as I think the bluegill are the key to getting forage for the bass.

The pond's watershield cover makes bass fishing difficult this time of year as they seem to be staying under the weeds. Leaning towards trying to kill off some of the shoreline watershield next spring with granular 2. 4-D to allow better access to shallow water fishing while hopefully leaving the grasses to grow.

Plan to hit the crappie hard in the spring and monitor the bluegill population. The bass population is on low side now so would like to add 100 F1 fingerlings next year to add some new genetics to pond.



Last edited by nvcdl; 09/04/19 01:58 PM.
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What size are your crappie?

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Frankly it doesn't seem like you have a problem to me, nvcdl. Ponds are always in ebb/flo or state-of-flux, and you have nice crappie.

Before you kill off too much vegetation you might want to read these recommendations for a crappie pond: https://mdc.mo.gov/property/pond-stream-care/ponds-fish-frog-management/crappie-small-ponds


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Originally Posted By: Redonthehead
Frankly it doesn't seem like you have a problem to me, nvcdl. Ponds are always in ebb/flo or state-of-flux, and you have nice crappie.

Before you kill off too much vegetation you might want to read these recommendations for a crappie pond: https://mdc.mo.gov/property/pond-stream-care/ponds-fish-frog-management/crappie-small-ponds


I can take or leave crappie. My goal for now is to improve the bass fishery and available forage.

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Dangit was hoping for another crappie lover!

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Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Dangit was hoping for another crappie lover!


Love eating them and they are fun to catch when biting but it does seem that they cause issues in smaller ponds.

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They are good eating for sure but you have to have them large enough to filet in my opinion. With my predator base I’m having trouble getting enough of them to get to a large size.

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Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
They are good eating for sure but you have to have them large enough to filet in my opinion. With my predator base I’m having trouble getting enough of them to get to a large size.


I'd think a good predator base would help get larger crappie as they would keep the population in check.

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Pat Williamson, I'll be your huckleberry, I wouldnt have a BOW without Black Crappy in it, lb for lb they are the most fun, fastest growing and some of the best freshwater eating fish there is, That being said, one cannot be shy about harvesting plenty of them, one of the great thing about them is the knowledge that when they get overpopulated they get really hungry, and can be caught as fast as you can cast, if the ones you catch are too small for nice fillets, I prefer >10 inches, you need to remove more of them, I can see why nvcdl had problems with over population with a pond that hadnt been fished for a number of yrs, if you dont keep up with them they will over populate fast, especially White Crappy, they reproduce way faster then BC, I have fishing access to a 3A BOW that has WC in it, if you dont remove enough of them every year you will see stunted ones within a yr or so.
If you will keep up with what time the spawn is about to happen in your locality you cannot cast into the brush without pulling out one of the tastiest fish you will ever catch,, it never gets old for me. anybody with a overpopulation problem call me, for a reasonable fee I will take care of it, but hopefully you will invite me back the next year or so after when you have some 15" slabs.


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Huckleberry( gehajake)you are right about them . They are probably the most misunderstood fish in the pond. I probably need to remove more to let the others grow but I don’t catch as many as previous years making me believe there is less of them

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