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#400176 - 02/07/15 07:02 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 6060
Loc: Boone County Illinois
I am not a pro, but IMHO I would think if you want to start with only 10 fish, I would try to isolate them into a much smaller area than a 1 acre pond for two reasons. One to assure the fish successfully find a mate. The second so you possibly don't have to wait a long time to know if they successfully spawned as you will be able to observe progress much more effectively.

Edit: Thought I should maybe explain my thinking a little more on my reason two. When I stocked 300+ FHM to my pond, they were the first fish into a brand new pond. It was not what I expected. I was thinking I would see a school or two of minnows in the shallow water as I walked around the pond. Wrong. They disappeared. In retrospect, I am guessing in the absence of predators, they were comfortable in deeper water and did not need to seek the safety of the shallow water.

I did not know whether they were all dead or not until I built a bunch of what I call "Flintstone houses" (Based on the old TV show)in a foot or so of water. My "Flintstone houses" consisted of 3 round rocks placed in a triangle pattern with a flat rock on top for the roof. I had not found PBF yet so this was my feeble attempt at creating spawning habitat. Two or three days later my FHM appeared. Pretty much every house had a male inhabitant. With only 10 fish in a 1 acre pond, it could be months before you know whether you are successful if they stay in a little bit deeper water.


Edited by Bill D. (02/07/15 07:51 PM)
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#400192 - 02/07/15 09:50 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
Bill Cody Offline
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Ben A. 10 shiners of spotfin or steelcolor and/or bluntnose minnows in a 1 acre pond without predators will find each other to spawn and recruit young fish. These are schooling fish so all survivors will hang out together. 10 survivors of about 50:50 male and female mix will easily produce several thousand youngsters that without predators will grow fast due to excess food and low competition. I produced a pond full of spotfins from 12-16 adults. Spotfins are prolific and lay eggs over the entire summer. If you can get 10 fish to survive you will be surprised at how many you will have after a summer of minnow reproduction. Note the spotfin and steelcolor shiners need special spawning substrates with cracks and crevices to lay their eggs. If you provide these artificial structures you can easily monitor the egg laying process by periodically examining the spawning devices. Bluntnose minnows spawn the same as FHM so similar habitat is required. PM me if you need more information about building spawning structure for the shiners.


Edited by Bill Cody (02/07/15 09:51 PM)
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#400194 - 02/07/15 10:09 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 6060
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Good info Bill. I have had a question lurking in the back of my mind for a while and this seems like a good place to ask the question. With only 10 fish to start, is there and issue with gene pool for future generations with all the inbreeding that is bound to occur?
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#400199 - 02/08/15 02:13 AM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
CJBS2003 Offline
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I started the banded killifish in the 0.34 acre pond I referred to with 8 fish. I now have thousands. The eastern silvery minnows were started with 15. I now have thousands.

Eastern silvery minnows appear to be far more tolerant of habitat extremes as compared to their western relative. They are also closely related to the brassy minnow.

See these links:

http://www.nanfa.org/captivecare/hybognathus.shtml

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showgallery&Number=257884

I specifically set out to collect eastern silvery minnows after finding research showing their possibility as a pond candidate. I was able to catch 6 adults in August of 2011. I caught 9 more adults in April of 2012 and 27 YOY in August of that year. They were transferred to the pond. I first observed signs of reproduction in 2013 and had a huge spawn last year.
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#400212 - 02/08/15 01:15 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: Bill D.]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 6060
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Good info Bill. I have had a question lurking in the back of my mind for a while and this seems like a good place to ask the question. With only 10 fish to start, is there and issue with gene pool for future generations with all the inbreeding that is bound to occur?


FWIW I have been digging thru old threads about inbreeding and really didn't find a definitive answer for how many fish is a minimum you should use to start a population with an adequate gene pool. Seems there was some agreement that starting with just 1 pair is probably not a good idea. Starting with a few pairs was "it depends." If all the fish came from the same 2 parents or from multiple parents seemed to carry some weight in the discussion but no conclusions were drawn that I could find.
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#400213 - 02/08/15 02:26 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
Bill Cody Offline
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Obviously the more breeding pairs that the population has the more genetic variation that will occur. One may never see deterioration of the population in one's lifetime. Also remember we are not trying to produce trophy class shiners or minnows. From my experience it will take many generations for genetic abnormalities to occur when starting with about a dozen adult fish.


Edited by Bill Cody (02/08/15 02:27 PM)
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#400233 - 02/08/15 09:56 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
fishm_n Offline


Registered: 05/18/11
Posts: 733
Loc: Sturgis, SD
CJ all I was able to find on the banded killifish was they like turbid water and i assumed they would be a poor choice for a pond fish. They are pretty and would be fun to be have a source for, I will love to try and establish some.

I have sourced some western silvery's too.

But I like the size of the spottails and hope I can get them established.
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#400247 - 02/09/15 02:45 AM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
CJBS2003 Offline
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Banded killifish like turbid waters? Where'd you get that information from?

The banded killifish has two subspecies. The eastern which I have and the western which I have no experience with. My research has shown that the western is actually very susceptible to degradation in water quality, including sedimentation. They don't handle turbidity well. The eastern subspecies is far more tolerant to sedimentation but doesn't prefer it. Because of this tolerance, the eastern subspecies which has been introduced into the western subspecies' range is colonizing new areas and out competing the native western subspecies. Fairly strange in that little hybridization is being observed...

In the wild I generally collect banded killifish in the vegetated backwaters of generally clear medium to large rivers. I know of a few clear lakes that have them as well. If anything they seek out clear water. If it's rained and the main river is muddy, I'll see them concentrated in the cleaner clear flowing mouths of small feeder streams. The pond I have them in generally stays clear, but will muddy during exceptionally heavy rain. One inflow area is always clear and the killies concentrate heavily here.
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#400429 - 02/11/15 09:15 AM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 2157
Loc: West Michigan
Stumbled on this on the web. What can someone tell me about this type of shiner 'spotfin shiner' or spottail or are these the same thing?

neat video. And it says they were obtained from the black river in Holland not far from me. Maybe I can seine or minnow trap some.. Come warmer water and weather...

Spotfin shiner spawning

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#400432 - 02/11/15 10:36 AM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
fishm_n Offline


Registered: 05/18/11
Posts: 733
Loc: Sturgis, SD
They are different. Spottails have a spot at the base of the tail and are silver. Spotfin have a blue tint and blotch in spot or spots on the dorsal find or rather the one in the middle of there back.
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#400438 - 02/11/15 12:14 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
fishm_n Offline


Registered: 05/18/11
Posts: 733
Loc: Sturgis, SD
The biggest difference is I know where to get spottails. But I don't think there are spotfin in my state
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#400440 - 02/11/15 12:42 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 2157
Loc: West Michigan
Apparently the spotfin live in the northern states in the wild and survive. I wonder what temperatures they tolerate in a pond with no moving water...

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#400568 - 02/12/15 03:36 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
CJBS2003 Offline
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Spotfin do not prefer a pond habitat, but can adapt to it. If you construct spawning structures for them to spawn in, they'll keep their numbers up better. Suitable spawning sights are an issue in ponds for spotfins. They are crevice spanners. In rivers, currents help keep the crevices in rocks, logs, etc from filling in. In ponds, these crevices get silted in and this becomes a limiting factor in their success.
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#400569 - 02/12/15 03:38 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
CJBS2003 Offline
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My pond gets over 95 degrees in the summer with no moving water. Both my spotfins and closely related satinfin shiners do fine.
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#400689 - 02/13/15 12:11 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
Bill Cody Offline
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Quote:
The biggest difference is I know where to get spottails. But I don't think there are spotfin in my state.


Does your state have red shiners? They are same genus (Cyprinella) as spotfins and likely will spawn in similar habitats. Literature says they are tolerant of numerous conditions and tolerate suspended silt. Spawning is variable and not quite as specific as most of the other Cyprinella species. Pond spawning should be possible since they reportedly scatter eggs over similar areas as GSH and also in crevices. Sometimes one has to make a road trip to an area known for the species to probably do some self collecting. Sometimes you might be able contact local bait shops where the species occurs and buy some of them from the bait shop.

Some of the distribution maps show red shiners extending up into south central North Dakota. One may have to take a long weekend vacation to a place that sells red shiners as bait fish.
http://ninnescahlife.wichita.edu/node/367


Edited by Bill Cody (02/14/15 07:58 PM)
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#514899 - 12/13/19 08:12 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
Bill Cody Offline
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Generally the numbers of eggs that hatch and survive to mature adults is strongly dependent on the amount of competition of the same species and predators. In a fish empty pond, several to a few dozen healthy reproducing adults can quickly populate a one acre pond with thousands of individuals. This assumes the adults minnow specie is "normally" prolific as far as true minnows are concerned in the minnow family - Cyprinidae. My experience is - survival of fry is highly dependent on amount of competition present. I've raised in one season, thousands of spotfins from a 'handful' of spotfin adults in an 0.3 ac pond with no other species present except 40-50 bluntnose (BNM).


Edited by Bill Cody (12/13/19 08:27 PM)
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#514925 - 12/15/19 12:00 AM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 819
Loc: NW Kansas
Thanks for bringing this up, Bill!
For those reading this Bill is helping me with an experiment of my own with Red & Spotfin shiner and bluntnose minnow.
After a "fair" amount of research I've found that all 3 of these species are available but it's mostly dealers for the aquarium hobbyist and they are EXPENSIVE.
BUT...If one has a forage pond of any sort, I believe-from what I can find- the red shiner will play just fine with spotfin and bluntnose.
My research on SPOT TAIL shiner suggest they will not "prosper" in a closed system or small pond. They seem to have very similar traits to that of emerald shiner. That does not mean they won't reproduce but my findings suggest with predators present they won't last long, so I chose the 3 species listed above to go with my GSH FHM and Gams I have present in pond. I'm starting cultures of all 3 with hopes of getting reproduction in the new forage pond. I've placed several pairs in my 60 gal aquarium and hope to observe some behavior patterns at the least. My red shiner males have started to color up as my timed light passed through roughly 11 hrs 30 min. I'm increasing 5 min of light every 3rd day to 'mimic" photo period. I am able to determine females in all 3 species now and with the Red shiner, the Males were obvious first.
Should be fun if nothing else!
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#514931 - 12/15/19 08:18 AM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: Bill Cody]
saint_abyssal Offline


Registered: 06/05/19
Posts: 36
Loc: WV
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I've raised in one season, thousands of spotfins from a 'handful' of spotfin adults in an 0.3 ac pond with no other species present except 40-50 bluntnose (BNM).


What kept the BNMs from similarly proliferating and then outcompeting the spotfins?

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#514933 - 12/15/19 10:46 AM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: CJBS2003]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 1102
Loc: in the mountains
Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
I now have thousands. The eastern silvery minnows were started with 15. I now have thousands.

Eastern silvery minnows appear to be far more tolerant of habitat extremes as compared to their western relative. They are also closely related to the brassy minnow.

See these links:

http://www.nanfa.org/captivecare/hybognathus.shtml

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showgallery&Number=257884

I specifically set out to collect eastern silvery minnows after finding research showing their possibility as a pond candidate. I was able to catch 6 adults in August of 2011. I caught 9 more adults in April of 2012 and 27 YOY in August of that year. They were transferred to the pond. I first observed signs of reproduction in 2013 and had a huge spawn last year.


I am interested in these Eastern Silvery Minnows. They sound like a very good candidate for a trout pond. Bigger than fatheads, but not as "aggressive" as Golden Shiners. Plus, they eat algae!


Edited by wbuffetjr (12/15/19 10:46 AM)
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#514978 - 12/16/19 02:15 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: Snipe]
ewest Offline
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Originally Posted By: Snipe
I'm starting cultures of all 3 with hopes of getting reproduction in the new forage pond. I've placed several pairs in my 60 gal aquarium and hope to observe some behavior patterns at the least. My red shiner males have started to color up as my timed light passed through roughly 11 hrs 30 min. I'm increasing 5 min of light every 3rd day to 'mimic" photo period. I am able to determine females in all 3 species now and with the Red shiner, the Males were obvious first.
Should be fun if nothing else!


Nice work !!! Be sure to match photoperiod to proper water temps to encourage reproduction. FishBase may have info on these species preferred reproduction temps.
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#515041 - 12/17/19 08:32 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 819
Loc: NW Kansas
ewest, here's one of my "Cody shiner discs"..

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#515047 - 12/18/19 12:05 AM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
teehjaeh57 Offline
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Sweet!
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#515070 - 12/18/19 07:23 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
Bill Cody Offline
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Quote:
What kept the BNMs from similarly proliferating and then out competing the spotfins?

saint_a these two species have different a niche thus direct competition is not real significant. Thus for me, both reproduced almost equally to put the pond at carrying capacity; almost a poly- culture thing.

snipe pull out our spawning device and measure the distance between the disks. They look too far apart. You want spacing to be 3-4-5mm (about 1/8"-3/16" no bigger) Your spacing looks to be 1/4" or more. Too wide of spacing and you will get few if any eggs. Spotfins are fussy. I suggest for your aquarium project add a couple more disks at the narrow spacing and see which spacing the shiner prefer. Let them educate you!

REMINDER - To those reading this thread; spottail shiner and spotfin shiner are two completely and entirely different species with very different spawning habits. Don't confuse them.


Edited by Bill Cody (12/18/19 07:35 PM)
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#515075 - 12/18/19 09:00 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 2157
Loc: West Michigan
snipe,
When I made my stacks of old CDs I bought the smallest diameter of all thread rod that they kept at the hardware (looking online it was 1/4" course thread. I used a 1/4" course thread nut that matches to hold the stack of disks at top and bottom.
In between the CDs I used I believe 2 thin washers stacked to try to achieve that 1/8" spacing. The washers have to be big enough to not fit through the hole in the middle of the CD and you also need some pressure from the nuts top and bottom to compress things so the CDs stay rigid. I can't recall for sure but probably got 1/4" washers (meaning inside diameter of the hole was just right to fit over the all thread and the outside diameter was 5/8".
Online it says those washers are usually 1.5 to 2mm thick, which means I'm pretty sure I used 2 of these stacked between each CD.
I made the all thread rod about 3' long with the CD stack right at the top. I found it easy to push these into the bottom of my pond and pull them back out again in the fall. I pulled them out to power wash them every fall as they silt in pretty easily and it is also fun to see how many sticky egg remnants are on the CDs or in between them.
I found that how far the CD 'tower' is off the bottom and simultaneously how far it is under the surface mattered a bit too. Mine were bottom mounted, most people hange them off the edge of a dock. Not sure which is best.

I used some plastic cardboard stacks too thinking that the natural holes on the endgrain of the cardboard would be perfect for the shiners but when powerwashing I saw very little use of these stacks. I wonder if part of it might be that they were square pieces rather than curved pieces and also the cardboard flexes so the gap between the layers of cardboard changes alot, which is unlike natural crevices which don't give or open and close with time.

An old post somewhere suggests using the plastic ring that is left behind when you screw off the plastic cap of a gatorade bottle, water bottle, or plastic gallon milk jug cap as a spacer. A good idea!

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#515076 - 12/18/19 09:02 PM Re: Spottail Shiners in ponds [Re: fishm_n]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 819
Loc: NW Kansas
I put them at "exactly" 3/16" per your instructions..I can sure tighten them a hair to 1/8". In fact there are some eggs already on the back side, they're using it as of this am, but it's the spotfins and not the RSH as I expected.
I should back up... the Red shiner use technics similar to GSH but will also lay eggs in BG/GSF/RES nests too and I've found some literature that suggests they will (at times) also spawn in crevices.


Edited by Snipe (12/18/19 09:06 PM)
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