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#188431 10/19/09 06:32 PM
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I was wondering, as the water temps get colder and colder, do fish keep growing. Say, will a 4 inch BG keep growing all winter and be 6 inches by spring? Since they slow down eating, I would suspect at the minimum their growth rate at least declines somewhat.


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It depends. I bet you knew that was the answer. Water temps effect different species differently. It also depends on the minimum water temps. At about 60 F BG metabolism starts to noticeably slow and shortly thereafter their eating starts to slow. At some point energy use is channeled to maintenance of body functions and away from growth. Then in late winter/early spring energy use is diverted to gamete development. If there is excess energy then some growth will continue but not at warm water rates.
















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 Originally Posted By: ewest
It depends. I bet you knew that was the answer. Water temps effect different species differently. It also depends on the minimum water temps. At about 60 F BG metabolism starts to noticeably slow and shortly thereafter their eating starts to slow. At some point energy use is channeled to maintenance of body functions and away from growth. Then in late winter/early spring energy use is diverted to gamete development. If there is excess energy then some growth will continue but not at warm water rates.


Eric,

The author of that bluegill book you sent me maintains that bluegills grow in winter here in Indiana. We are talking water temps at the maximum in the upper 30's in winter here. I find that hard to believe don't you? Otherwise it was excellent reading and I really appreciate the book, but that part I found hard to swallow. It just seems to go against everything I learned in fisheries class.

Thoughts?

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 10/19/09 08:41 PM.

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My bluegill, in Texas, feed all winter, except when the water temp drops into the 30's.
But, if fish won't eat in the cold, why do you guys fish for them under the ice?
I contend that if the food source is plentiful, growth continues through the winter, albeit more slowly.
We saw some outstanding individual growth rates with bluegill in North Carolina the last two winters. There were several feeders where they were pretty aggressive, even on the coldest days.


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Great info. I am planning on adding a bunch of 2 to 4 inch BG in November to the pond. I was hoping that with feeding as whole slowing down, that they would big enough come spring to avoid predation and also be close to spawning.


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I wonder if fish tend to grow a little more in weight when its cold, and not as much in length? That is a really slippery topic, and if I really knew anything, I would say so rather than "wonder." \:\) When studying fish population seasonally, including under the ice, we do see more weight gains and length gains seem pretty rare or at least pretty small.


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 Originally Posted By: Bob Lusk
My bluegill, in Texas, feed all winter, except when the water temp drops into the 30's.
But, if fish won't eat in the cold, why do you guys fish for them under the ice?
I contend that if the food source is plentiful, growth continues through the winter, albeit more slowly.
We saw some outstanding individual growth rates with bluegill in North Carolina the last two winters. There were several feeders where they were pretty aggressive, even on the coldest days.




I don't know Bob. Standing on two feet of ice here with sub zero temps I'm just not convinced of any growth. I'm not countering your years of fish experience and knowledge that dwarfs mine, just having a healthy debate here. ;\)

As far as why they bite under the ice I don't have a problem with them eating for maintenance, but the growth thing in really cold water (30's) has me skeptical. Furthermore fish do bite on reflex do they not? When we ice fish for bluegill, bass, etc. we pretty much have to drop that bait right in front of their noses. Many times you can see them but they are not interested in biting. Monster redears in the local lakes are notorious for that.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 10/20/09 09:15 AM.

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 Originally Posted By: Dave Willis
I wonder if fish tend to grow a little more in weight when its cold, and not as much in length? That is a really slippery topic, and if I really knew anything, I would say so rather than "wonder." \:\) When studying fish population seasonally, including under the ice, we do see more weight gains and length gains seem pretty rare or at least pretty small.


That's plausible. On the other hand is it possible they are eating and not digesting the food very fast which leaves their stomach and intestinal tract more full of food, hence they weigh more?



Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 10/20/09 09:26 AM.

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I think Northern Pike grow in length all year around. Something to add to a slippery topic.


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 Originally Posted By: Dwight
I think Northern Pike grow in length all year around. Something to add to a slippery topic.




Do you have any scientific evidence of growth under the ice of northern pike? Northerns are active under the ice and may even build up their gametes under the ice. Northerns even spawn under the ice at times. However this doesn't necessarily mean they grow under the ice.


Here's something to add to the slippery slope. I've seen it stated in scientific literature several times, that even trout, that are a coldwater fish, cease to grow below 38 F. even if they still feed. According to literature, the feed goes to maintenance of weight and any excess is wasted. I even know one trout farmer in Harrisville, Michigan that was livid a neighbor that was growing out trout for him in his pond, had fed the trout when their was a brief ice out during the middle of winter. He was sure the neighbor had killed some of the trout doing that. He claimed it was really bad to feed them during the winter. He may be wrong of course (wouldn't be the first time a myth has been perpetuated among fish farmers and accepted as fact) but he sure believed it.

In trout, the minimum temperature
for growth is approximately 38°F. At
this temperature and below,
appetites may be suppressed and
their digestive systems operate very
slowly. Trout will require only a
“maintenance” diet (0.5 percent to
1.8 percent body weight/day, depending
upon fish size) at these temperatures;
more than this will result in
poor food conversion and wasted
feed.


http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/extension/Classroom/pdffiles/223fs.pdf

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 10/20/09 09:35 AM.

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Heybud often asks questions that result in some of the best discussions here. As a result I try to help them along by being sure my first answer is short and without too much detail. I wait to see how things develop to encourage everyone to get in on the discussion. I will post a few items from a new study (saving some of it for upcoming PB Mag.“Cutting Edge” articles) . This study looked at BG across 23 impoundments with “ extensive latitudinal (and therefore, ecological) variation and encompassing a broad range of factors known to be important to bluegill growth rates and population size structure “ within Ill. Keep in mind this is focused on the big picture not individual ponds. I will look for the data on metabolism ,and growth rate at temp. for BG to post. What I provided in the first post above is a generalization and you should remember that local adaptation exists (in one population of BG in Ohio growth may continue at 45 F temps while in another in TX it may slow to almost none at 48 F while in south Fla all BG growth may stop in one lake at 52 F ).

Examining Interpopulation Variation in Bluegill Growth Rates and Size Structure: Effects of Harvest, Maturation, and Environmental Variables
R. JOHN H. HOXMEIER, D. DEREK ADAY, AND DAVID H. WAHL Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 138:423–432, 2009


“Consistent with previous investigations of bluegills and other species, temperature had a pronounced effect on growth and body size; based on our models, temperature may be the most important environmental factor for explaining variation in bluegill size structure. The effects of Secchi depth and prey abundance were also generally important and were consistent across metrics; good growth and large body size were associated with warm, clear lakes and abundant prey resources. An exception to this pattern was observed in juvenile bluegills, for which larger body size was associated with relatively low Secchi depth (i.e., turbid water). Size at maturation was important in determining the body size of adult males but was relatively
unimportant to female body size. Conversely, bluegill density and harvest mortality did not contribute much explanatory power beyond the effects of prey abundance and temperature in any of our models.”

“However, the relative importance of temperature compared with other abiotic and life history factors is interesting and indicates the value of this approach when considering the multivariate nature of influences on population size structure. Latitudinal clines in growth resulting from changes in temperature have previously been demonstrated for a number of freshwater fishes. “

“ In a test of Bergmann’s rule for freshwater fishes, almost all of the fish species reviewed had smaller lengths at age in northern latitudes than in southern latitudes (Belk and Houston 2002). In a review of largemouth bass growth rates across North America, McCauley and Kilgour (1990) found that half of the variability in growth of largemouth bass was related to temperature. Similarly, bluegill growth was positively correlated with air temperature in Minnesota lakes . Our study provides a relatively unique perspective because we were able to quantify the importance of temperature relative to other environmental factors in its effect on variation in population size structure.”
















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Cecil,
With your ponds, you should be able to run some experiments to prove whether or not fish will grow in the cold.
I contend that bluegill will grow, even in the coldest of winter, as long they have an adequate food supply. While their metabolic rates are much, much slower in colder water, that doesn't mean they won't gain weight. If a bluegill eats half a pound of insects over the winter, it should gain at least an ounce of weight, maybe two ounces. With a slower metabolism rate, it has better food conversion rates than in summer, when its system is running full force.
Yes, fish bite because of reflex reaction, but they also bite because they're hungry. If an ice-fisherman must stick the bait in front of a fish several times before getting a strike, is that really reflex? Or, defense?
Either way, I have seen evidence in ponds and lakes that I manage that, if we feed all winter, the bluegill come out on the other side larger than when we went into winter.
For many, many years, I believed that we just shouldn't feed in cold water. I still believe that for northern ponds. I expected the fish to not gain weight...I also believed that they would actually lose weight...which they did, because I didn't feed them.
As I tried a few different management techniques, it dawned on me that these cultured fish HAD to lose weight if they had no food. But, I justified it anyway because I didn't want to compromise water quality with excess feed.
But, as I watched people catch fish under the ice and then watched the fish behavior on a camera, it dawned on me that those fish would eat. So, we devised a method of feeding fish, bluegill, crappie and bass in particular, where we would "chum" an area under the ice with fathead minnows. We would push a pvc pipe through the hole in the ice and pour fatheads down the pipe and they would swim out in four or five feet of water. Within a few days, game fish began to congregate in that area. That made be believe they were hungry. Catch rates went up and everybody was happy.
Regarding all the studies...here's my thoughts. Each study has a purpose and the conclusions are based on good science and good technique (in theory). Therefore, the data is good. At the same time, I have learned that managing a fishery is figuring out what variables have the greatest influence on that particular body of water and then do what we can to offer a positive influence on those variables.
Studies don't do that.
Studies are set up for a set of criteria, planned out and then the plan is executed and the results are properly documented.
I've read studies until I'm blue in the face. They are good, helpful and promote deeper thought (at least for me).
At the same time, I don't see any studies as "gospel". I get paid for results, not research.
It is easy to make the argument that temperature is absolutely a variable that inhibits growth rates in bluegill (and most all warmwater fish). But, what if we supply an adequate food chain to those fish? Do they still not grow? Do they lose weight? If that's the case, then I'll buy into the concept that temperature is "THE" variable at play. Right now, I don't believe it. Even though the studies suggest it, and I don't do any research to disprove it, my clients are often tickled pink and surprised to see fish with better relative weights, fatter tummies and chunkier-looking bodies going into the spring months than they did in the fall.
I won't dispute the science.
I also won't dispute the fat bluegill each spring.




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Good call from Dwight on northern pike. They truly are a coolwater fish species. In South Dakota, they grew in length over winter and in spring/fall but did NOT grow in the summer when it got too warm.

Neumann, R.M., D.W. Willis, and S.M. Sammons. 1994. Seasonal growth of northern pike in a South Dakota glacial lake. Journal of Freshwater Ecology 9:191-196.

You can't get that journal online. So, if anyone "needs" \:\) a copy, send me an email and I'll get it to you. It's also available on our department web page publication list.

http://wfs.sdstate.edu/wfsdept/Department%20of%20Wildlife%20and%20Fisheries%20Publications.htm

Oh, and one other tidbit. Rob Neumann is now the managing editor for In-Fisherman magazine. Cool, eh?


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I believe that fish feed under the ice, and don't just strike out of reflex. If the reflex part were true most of the time, then what color of ice jig or fly wouldn't matter, would it? I read somewhere, and believe the BG target copopods (sp?) during the winter (iced over lakes). The BG seem to follow their rise and fall in the water column as it relates to ambient light. Matching the hatch seems to work. I've used a #28 fly tied above an ice fishing jig and have caught more fish on the fly than on the jig.

In regards to pelleted feed, does anybody know how long a fish takes to digest a pellet at "X" number of degrees water temp? i.e. a BG will digest a pellet in "X" hours in 70* water vs. "X" hours in 40* water.


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Interesting Dave. So pike have been documented as growing in the winter but trout are not supposed to grow below 38 F. I wonder how much of the trout info is documented through research like the pike data is, or is it just accepted as the truth?

A good example is how it was always accepted smallmouth bass are a coolwater deeper fish than largemouths in large lakes and reservoirs when it turns out they are just being pushed out of the litoral zone by the more aggressive largemouths.



Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 10/20/09 05:38 PM.

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When it comes to brook trout, they must be feeding and growing during the winter, they spawn in the winter and yet most of the BRKT I catch in early spring are in great shape.

I like Bobs method of feeding fish thru the ice, I can just see the fish lining up by the feed pipe like a fast food restaurant.



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 Originally Posted By: adirondack pond
When it comes to brook trout, they must be feeding and growing during the winter, they spawn in the winter and yet most of the BRKT I catch in early spring are in great shape.

I like Bobs method of feeding fish thru the ice, I can just see the fish lining up by the feed pipe like a fast food restaurant.


Just because a fish is feeding doesn't mean it's growing though. Could be more of a maintenance thing.


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Cecil,
I don't see your logic. Please explain further. I'm not getting it.
Admittedly, my fisheries management style is based on good science (but not specific science), which makes much of it an art, which is based on what I perceive as common sense.
My common sense tells me that when a fish eats, it eats because it needs to. If the food chain is available and the fish is hungry, it eats. I have not seen a fish just trying to "maintain"...if they have plenty to eat. I have watched them grow like little fat sumo wrestlers, even in the winter.
My "common sense" approach tells me a fish only maintains when that's the only choice it has.
I haven't grasped the concept that any bluegill that has copepods, insect larvae or fish food...or any favorable food chain... available at times when that fish is hungry, that it will turn its nose away and swim off, just because it wants to maintain. If a fathead minnow swims near and the bluegill is hungry, I contend it will eat it, regardless of the temperature. And, I also contend that when that sunfish eats that minnow and its nutrition is more than the bluegill needs to "maintain", that it will gain weight.
So, would you be so kind as to enlighten me? I'm just hard headed enough to stay in this fracas, but also intelligent enough to realize there are plenty of people out there that know more about it than I do. Really, all I have to show for it are the ponds and lakes I take care of, and they may be exceptions to the rule(s).
So, I am really interested in your side of this friendly little debate.
I guess I am asking you to cite some real world examples (beyond some specific study we can read) or some idea that I can wrap my mind around that will help me embrace your idea.
If I am thinking in the wrong direction, I need to shift it.
Thanks, buddy.


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O.k. Bob here's my take on this and I sure don't have all the answers, and probably not making my point clear, but I did stay at a Holiday Express last night!

Seriously, aquaculture text literature says from several sources the following more or less regarding trout which are a coldwater fish:


In trout, the minimum temperature
for growth is approximately 38°F. At
this temperature and below,
appetites may be suppressed and
their digestive systems operate very
slowly. Trout will require only a
“maintenance” diet (0.5 percent to
1.8 percent body weight/day, depending
upon fish size) at these temperatures;
more than this will result in
poor food conversion and wasted
feed.


My thoughts are (and I sure could be wrong) that if a trout, a cold water fish, stops growing at 38 F. even while eating, why do we think a bluegill would continue to grow under the ice in northern Indiana as the author of the text I was referring to says?

I'm all ears if someone can show evidence of growth in those frozen lakes even if it's a millimeter all winter. Or evidence that the above information about trout is false. Like I said in a previous post it could be false about the trout, and is one of those things that has been accepted and repeated over and over again but not necessarily proven.

So I'm not talking about winter growth in general or winter growth in Texas or wherever. I was referring to the text Eric sent me that said there is bluegill growth in the winter in Northern Indiana lakes.

Perhaps when the author was talking winter growth in winter in Northern Indiana lakes he was referring to growth from the first day of winter to the last day of winter where on occasion we get unseasonably warm weather or a late winter? One year it was in the 70's on Christmas Eve here and many of us were out in our boats fishing.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 10/21/09 05:55 AM.

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Here is a little more. Like I stated early on I think it depends on several factors.

The Effects of Growth, Predation, and First-Winter Mortality on Recruitment of Bluegill Cohorts

Victor J. Santucci Jr and David H. Wahl
Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 2003; 132: 346-360

All sizes of age-0 bluegills grew during winter in our study, suggesting that starvation was not a factor influencing winter survival. In contrast, predation was a likely factor reducing bluegill survival overwinter.

* this was in Ill.


SEASONAL GROWTH RATES OF FISHES IN RELATION

TO CONDITIONS OF LAKE STRATIFICATION

Glen E. Gebhart and Robert C. Summerfelt

Oklahoma Cooperative Fishery Research Unit†,

Seasonal periodicity of growth has been reported which shows a reduced rate in

midsummer. This coincides with the onset of summer stratification and severe hypolimnetic oxygen depletion.

Beckman (5) found that 85% of the expected growth of bluegills in a Michigan lake was completed between the

end of April and mid-July. Sprugel (6) found bluegill growth in Iowa was most rapid in June and little growth

evident after July. Anderson (7) also found bluegill growth to be most rapid in June with most growth occuring

in May, June and July and the total growing season extending from 1 May to 31 October. Winter temperatures

are generally too low for optimum growth of most warm-water fishes, but even normal summer surface

temperatures can exceed the optimum range for warm-water fishes as ascertained from laboratory and field

studies of the preferred temperatures of fish (8).

The generally held view on seasonal variation in fish growth in North America is that growth is fastest in

the spring and early summer, slows in the late summer and fall, and virtually stops in the winter (7).

More later.
















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Great topic. I was thinking about starting a thread about something very similar before I saw this one. Mine was going to go something like this.

Since switching to Aquamax feed I have noticed the the BG have lots of fat deposits in their gut when cleaning them. It is like you can't even see the intestine through all the fat. Once feeding halts for the winter will some of that fat be converted to muscle/length or will it just be burned as maintenance energy?

I'm sure that body condition (RW) going into the winter would be another variable in this discussion.


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 Originally Posted By: ewest
Here is a little more. Like I stated early on I think it depends on several factors.

The Effects of Growth, Predation, and First-Winter Mortality on Recruitment of Bluegill Cohorts

Victor J. Santucci Jr and David H. Wahl
Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 2003; 132: 346-360

All sizes of age-0 bluegills grew during winter in our study, suggesting that starvation was not a factor influencing winter survival. In contrast, predation was a likely factor reducing bluegill survival overwinter.

* this was in Ill.


SEASONAL GROWTH RATES OF FISHES IN RELATION

TO CONDITIONS OF LAKE STRATIFICATION

Glen E. Gebhart and Robert C. Summerfelt

Oklahoma Cooperative Fishery Research Unit†,

Seasonal periodicity of growth has been reported which shows a reduced rate in

midsummer. This coincides with the onset of summer stratification and severe hypolimnetic oxygen depletion.

Beckman (5) found that 85% of the expected growth of bluegills in a Michigan lake was completed between the

end of April and mid-July. Sprugel (6) found bluegill growth in Iowa was most rapid in June and little growth

evident after July. Anderson (7) also found bluegill growth to be most rapid in June with most growth occuring

in May, June and July and the total growing season extending from 1 May to 31 October. Winter temperatures

are generally too low for optimum growth of most warm-water fishes, but even normal summer surface

temperatures can exceed the optimum range for warm-water fishes as ascertained from laboratory and field

studies of the preferred temperatures of fish (8).

The generally held view on seasonal variation in fish growth in North America is that growth is fastest in

the spring and early summer, slows in the late summer and fall, and virtually stops in the winter (7).

More later.



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This is a timely subject. This begs the question whether one should stock a new lake with fingerlings in the winter or wait until early Spring. If fish don't grow in the winter it seems all your doing is exposing your investment to bird predation, possible winter kills, and more. Of course all the hatchery guys are pushing to stock ASAP regardless.


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Another tidbit. We sampled black crappies monthly in a fast-growing population in Lake Madison, SD. Following is the mean length of age-3 crappies each month.
Lengths in centemeters. cm/2.54 = inches
Mar 18.1 = 7.1 "
Apr 18.1
May 18.1
Jun 18.7
Jul 21.0
Aug 22.8
Sep 24.5
Oct 24.6 = 9.7"

Isn't that amazing? 7 inches to nearly 10 inches in just 3 months of growth. Crappies can really put on the feed bag.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/23/09 10:40 AM. Reason: added cm - inches info

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Cecil I have been doing some checking. What reference (pg / ft.nt. # , etc) in the Bluegill book are you referring to? I reviewed the material along with some other info and the results are all over the place on BG winter growth and most , but not all , is latitude (temp) related.

Guys please don't pick out one data point (or comment) and assume it is universal. That would be a huge mistake and not justified by the science or actual data. As I stated early on this is a big picture discussion and the results depend on many factors.

Cecil you said " The author of that bluegill book you sent me maintains that bluegills grow in winter here in Indiana." The author also states " Based on the appearance of scale annuli, growth starts in May in northern Indiana and extends through September. Growth rates vary widely both by region and bodies of water with in regions , and variation within lakes can be as great as between lakes in the same vicinity." He also says about those near Kalamazoo Mich that BG " continued to grow through winter, in one pond adding 20% in length and 50% in mass." Keep in mind the nature of this book. It is in large part a survey and recounting of data and conclusions from many studies on BG. There are over 1300 footnotes and probably around 500 studies reviewed and acknowledged. There were 60 lakes examined in the one study above in IN.

Last edited by ewest; 10/21/09 09:05 AM.















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