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#513267 - 10/25/19 11:00 AM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: 5444]
5444 Offline


Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 42
Loc: Midwest
I appreciate the input fellas and it really makes sense. I thought the HBG being approximately 90% male would definitely hinder reproduction, but canyoncreek is 100% right. Many owners have been having issues with them reverting back to GSF. I've been trying to take it slow and do what's best for the pond; but then I start researching all the types of fish and just get overzealous and want to have them all smile. Canyoncreek,Bill D and Snipe, thank you for the reality check and my pond thanks you!

I have put maybe 1/2 dozen crawfish in the pond. My pasture has crawfish randomly living in it. I'd never guess in a million years I would catch crawfish in a midwest pasture. I even have them by the house. I figured they end up in the pond anyway. By no means is it a sustainable population, it's barely a start. I did check to make sure they are not the evasive rusty craw. But if I have them in the pasture, it's only a matter of time before they make it to the pond. A couple of summers ago my boys and I were catching frogs in a 4wheeler rut in the pasture that was full of water. I began scooping up the mud and I thought I had a bunch of dragonfly larva. No, they were a bunch of baby crawfish.

So I am going to steer clear of CC, BG, YP and HBG.

What kind of numbers should I consider for RES, PS, HSB and SMB? Would you guys consider any other type of fish for forage? Where is a good source of crawfish? Again, thank you for your time. I truly appreciate your time and input.
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#513281 - 10/25/19 02:30 PM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: 5444]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 2127
Loc: West Michigan
I'm not sure you should exclude YP completely but consider a couple of options with the YP

1. If you can source larger size ones to stock then you have flexibility to add them at any time later. So you can see how the SMB, HSB and the panfish balance out. If you like to add YP for how fun they are to catch and how good they taste, you could add them later. It might require stocking 5-6" size fish to keep them from being eaten by the SMB.

2. If you can find YP that are pellet trained then the YP are a great option because you get the added fun of having a fish that is super easy for kids to catch, super fun to watch eat pellets, and are great eating. Also, they help control snails, help control crayfish population and they don't put pressure on your minnows as much since you can supplement feed with pellets.

I didn't catch where your pond is in the midwest but if it ices over in the winter then the YP of course have to make it all winter on minnows so they will put some pressure on the minnows.

I love our YP and if our predators hammered them I would just stock more pellet trained YP. The kids feed them like pets, the YP are aggressive eaters (don't believe anyone who says they only eat in low light conditions), and they lay enough eggs each season that you probably will be removing eggs as a population control strategy.

Read the posts here about trying to source some type of shiner outside of a GSH (active posts with good information have been happening today)

Some local creeks will have bluntnose minnows, various dace, and sticklebacks etc.

if you can source lakechubsuckers these are a great additional option.

Someone in the last couple of weeks had crayfish shipped to him from a midwest state, you might be able to find that thread as it went well for that PB member.

Curious where you are sourcing Pumpkinseed as many forum members would love to add those to their northern ponds.

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#513399 - 10/27/19 10:21 PM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: 5444]
5444 Offline


Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 42
Loc: Midwest
I have been reading a lot on an alternative forage other than FHM. It seems the GSH are more readily available. I haven't found a source for an alternative forage yet. Although Anderson fish farm has black salty's. Keystone Hatchery is where I will source my fish from this spring.


Edited by 5444 (10/27/19 10:26 PM)
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#513400 - 10/27/19 10:26 PM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: 5444]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 6054
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Keystone is awesome in my opinion. Mike and Diane Robinson are great people. My bride and I look forward to our trips there. We will heading that way soon for some WE and GSH for our fall stocking.
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#513401 - 10/27/19 10:29 PM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: 5444]
5444 Offline


Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 42
Loc: Midwest
Good to know Bill. I'm actually going to be within 30 minutes of them here in a few weeks for training. I thought about stopping by to pick there brains a little.
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#513402 - 10/27/19 10:36 PM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: 5444]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 6054
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Cool. It is a very busy time for them. My advice is shoot Mike an e-mail from their website so he can be a available for your visit.
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#513404 - 10/27/19 11:43 PM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: 5444]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 756
Loc: NW Kansas
Just FYI, The black saltys are hybrid gold fish, aka carp..
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#513415 - 10/28/19 01:24 PM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: 5444]
5444 Offline


Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 42
Loc: Midwest
Thats good to know Snipe, thank you. Whats the difference between FHM and tuffies? I see that Keystone offers both.
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#513421 - 10/28/19 04:13 PM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: 5444]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 756
Loc: NW Kansas
I do not believe there is any difference. Some say the "tuffies" are just male FHM. sometimes they sort them out at bait stations because spawning males tend to be less desirable on a hook.
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#513425 - 10/28/19 07:16 PM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: 5444]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 6054
Loc: Boone County Illinois
I sent Mike at Keystone an e-mail with the question. I'll report back when he answers.
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#513426 - 10/28/19 07:58 PM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: 5444]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 756
Loc: NW Kansas
"FATHEAD MINNOWS (Pimephales promelas)

ALIAS: Tuffy, blackhead minnow, minner"



Just another name..
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#513428 - 10/28/19 08:57 PM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: Snipe]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 6054
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Originally Posted By: Snipe
"FATHEAD MINNOWS (Pimephales promelas)

ALIAS: Tuffy, blackhead minnow, minner"



Just another name..


I think you're right Snipe. I remember asking one of the biologists at Keystone this same question several years back. IIRC the answer I got was there is a difference in providence between their FHM and Tuffies. Keep in mind, this is going by my memory and I am older than Pat W's Falstaff beer supply! The FHM are pond raised and may have a few stickleback mixed in. Their Tuffies will be pure FHM and produced in a more costly procedure. There is a price difference. I will be interested in Mike's reply. I always get the FHM as I don't mind a few stickleback.


Edited by Bill D. (10/28/19 08:58 PM)
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#513429 - 10/28/19 09:22 PM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: 5444]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 13036
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
If in the upper midwest you are getting sticklebacks in with FHM then the FHM are coming from wild ponds in MN or WI. Pure cultures of FHM are usually coming from AK farms. As Snipe noted below the AK should be AR for Arkansas. Mis-typed happens a lot!


Edited by Bill Cody (11/01/19 05:26 PM)
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#513430 - 10/28/19 09:58 PM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: 5444]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 756
Loc: NW Kansas
Alaska??? AR maybe?? :-))))
I didn't just catch Bill in a mis-typed situation did I? grin


Edited by Snipe (10/28/19 10:00 PM)
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#513440 - 10/29/19 07:56 AM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: 5444]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 6054
Loc: Boone County Illinois
From Mike at Keystone...

"Yes, they are both Fathead Minnows (Pimephales promelas) but the Tuffies are raised in Arkansas. Because of how they are raised and harvested, they are hardier in the summer. Basically, Tuffies are the thing to stock if you are trying to seed a new pond in the spring, but they are a waste if you are trying to feed a hungry bass pond, because they will both get eaten either way."
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#513668 - 11/04/19 01:09 PM Re: Finally pulled the trigger! [Re: 5444]
5444 Offline


Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 42
Loc: Midwest
Good to know fellas, thank you. The pond is almost full with the rain and snow melt from the 3" we received. I believe I'm only 12-18 inches from being completely full. I emailed Mike from Keystone since I will be within 30 minutes of this place in a few weeks. I do not think he will have time to talk. Bill D you were right, he is pretty busy right now. He did say he would meet if I absolutely had too. But that is not the case. Man I cannot wait to get some fish in this hole.

I did walk to the bottom of my dam the other day due to a small dead tree falling along my property line. I noticed some pudding and dampness. It was a day or two after a rain, so puddles of water were here and there. I just did not expect it to be where I found it due to the incline. How would I know if the dam is weeping?
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