Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Wildlife Management Bass weight to length rates seem low

Need some help on fish growth and size. I stocked my pond in southern LA in early March with LMB, BG, and Shellcrackers and just caught and released 3 bass to see how they are doing. I caught (11 3/4” - 13 oz.) and (11 1/4” - 9 oz.) and (11” - 8 oz.). How is this for just over 8 months of growing with a feeder that is throwing enough feed for them to eat in a couple of minutes twice a day? Ive been told that these rates are low and that my LMB probably decimated the BG because they were stocked together as fingerlings. I have not caught any BG so no idea what size they are. Any ideas on steps to take would be greatly appreciated.

What size were the LMB when stocked?

Also, was there a minnow (forage) population present when the other species were stocked?

they were fingerlings

i stocked FHM when i stocked all of the others at the recommendation of the supplier (more than one supplier had suggested this

Your 2 smaller LMB are roughly 75% WR and the largest of the 3 roughly 96% (based on numbers you provide).
That's poor for first year but I want to add this is exactly why length in inches and weight in 10th of a pound is useless for everything other than a quick reference and completely misleading-it's not accurate enough to make management decisions with.
Your numbers can change by 15-20% if you're 1/10lb off or 1/8" off.
mm and grams are the only values to use for management practice.
29mm per inch vs. using 4 (.25") and 454g per lb instead of 10.
It's like doing finish work on cabinets with a chainsaw.

okay... My question is should I take any actions at this point or allow the pond to progress as is? Do I need more specific data? Is 8 months into the first year too early to look for issues? Thanks for the input

I think some trapping to check BG size and structure along with trapping to look at minnow size/numbers present is pretty important at all times of the year. Not much you can do this time of year if short on BG and FHM tend to be a snack unless you're willing to add serious poundage. Need to look at forage structure over-all.
I might add I'm fighting forage issues myself right now and it's my own fault. Too many predators present for what pond will support forage wise.

BarryM,

IMHO, I think its too early to be greatly concerned. You have a new stocking and the BG and LMB were added to the BOW at the same time and at approximately the same lengths. What this means is that the BG you stocked grew and the LMB were unable to eat your BG stockers because the BG grew just outside the gape of your LMB throughout the season. This a good thing. But what happened is that the BG you stocked were too young to spawn when you stocked them. The males only reached a size that they might be inclined to spawn a couple of months ago. You very well may have had no BG spawns.

To venture a guess, both the LMB and BG eradicated the FHM early in the game. They harassed and consumed nest defending male FHM and eradicated them first preventing continual spawning. So it looks like the LMB ran short of fish prey as the FHM diminished and had to share invertebrates with the BG. Or perhaps if your BG got off any spawns, the LMB should be already rebounding.

Next year, IMHO, I think this what you can expect. I think the BG are in very good condition and that they will begin spawning as soon as temps permit it. I think they will spawn frequently all summer as your BOW is new and it will be your second year. I would bet the LMB have plenty to eat next year and it will be the subsequent years that finding food for them will be more complicated.

Your bass attained 11" in their first season which is much better than YOY do in a mature BOW. Next year at this time I predict they will be sporting RWs > 100. If they aren't, then I think such fault could only lie in too much LMB recruitment next year. So should you have waited for the LMB? I am not sure. There is a school of thought that how much they gain in first year sets the limit of their ultimate performance. I have to say I am somewhat skeptical of this but still there may be merit in that argument due to LMB recruitment. I do think the ultimate weights next fall will partially depend on how much LMB recruitment you get. To some degree this will depend on how many BG you initially stocked as a large number of them in 3" to 5" range will greatly inhibit LMB recruitment. If you stocked >= 1500/acre, I think the recruitment might be quite subdued and you may get 2 lbs gain (on the females) or more between now and then. If you stocked 400 or 500 BG per acre, the LMB will probably produce a very good crop of YOY and the weight gained may be less. If you stocked a low number of BG, you may need to be more aggressive culling next year's LMB recruits. In the end, I think you stand a good chance of growing these LMB to a larger size by next October than if you had waited till next year to stock them. Provided you allow few recruits and perform an appropriate cull of your original stockers, you should be OK going forward. Perhaps you might be benefitted to do a little LMB culling now focusing on only males. Each you remove is one less male guarding a nest next spring.

I think your LMB would have benefitted from a stocking of a modest number of adult BG as they would have produced large crops of YOY in the new pond environment. Any who may be stocking LMB with BG fingerlings at the same time, you may do well to consider adding a few adult BG with your fingerlings.

It is best to stock forage, bluegills and fathead minnows, a year ahead of bass so they can populate enough for bass to get a meal without decimating them. It's about like planting grass and concurrently stocking cows prior to the grass getting thick/big enough to feed them.

I have added fhm's at different times over the past 5 yrs as recommended to me to take the pressure off of the cnbg. Since you are located in S. La you may have had a late bg spawn. If the bg were large enough and I would think they are. In a 3 acre pond it was recommended to me to add 50 lbs each time. So, if you wanted to, I don't think it would hurt and it might help.

You need to assess the BG population !!! With that info you can make a much better plan forward. Likely that the BG were to big to eat but that the FH were not enough forage for good first year LMB growth. Also you have a small LMB sample size. So yes more data would be the best option. If needed you could add some adult BG.

How big is your pond? Was it a newly constructed pond? what # of each type fish did you stock?

You can get some good information on how to maximize BG production with this TWPD pdf that covers the production of BG fingerlings. Below is an excerpt from this document.



This is certainly more fingerlings than a few dozen 2" LMB need in their first season. Imagine slipping some LMB fingerlings into a hatchery pond when they are just stocked with BG broodfish. I dare say there will be lots for these tiny LMB to eat. I don't think the growth could be much greater except for cases where FHM are allowed to build for a year.

The adult BG are like a grass that can seed multiple times all summer where its scattered seed germinates in only 3 days and forms a seedling. If there were a creature that could eat seedlings then it could flourish and thin the seedlings so that they could grow. That creature would need be small and much fewer in number than the seedlings. But if that creature met that condition the field of seedlings would be like a lush meadow.

We would use much more adult BG than we do except for the space requirements. It not economical (or even practical) for a fishery supplier to meet all of the demand for BG with adult fish. The BOW owner must settle with what is available even if it isn't optimal or encourages one to delay stocking LMB.

Ya gotta remember that 95% or more of the eggs laid and hatched will be eaten before their first birthday. And, the second set of bg or fatheads will be groceries for the original stockers.

Yes. The LMB and BG as they grow in size and number will eventually eat themselves out a square lunch and there won't be enough to go around unless they are regularly thinned. Not sure if even 5% would survive the first summer. 5% of 120,000 would be 6000 small BG (perhaps 3 to 4")going into winter. Actually that number sounds very reasonable from this perspective. 6000 3.5" BG weigh 172 lbs. Together with 80 adults averaging 1/2 lb that's a BG standing weight of 212 lbs. Lots of bows can support this weight of BG.

Imagine what it would cost to stock 6000 3.5" BG. Hopefully there would remain a fair number of them in the spring to harass LMB recruitment.

What has been written, particularly by jpsdad and ewest, about stocking some adult BG in a pond with LMB, goes right along with what I have experienced this year.

My pond did not have a robust BG population before June of this year. The GSF, YP, a few BCP were not enough to produce chunky bass. For 3 years I hammered down the bass population until I could only see 2 fish larger than 12". There were plenty of smaller bass; some looked well fed, others not so much.

In June we stocked 25 7" to 8" BG in breeding condition. Some males built nests the day after they were released. Weeks later groups of small BG were visible in the shallows. After these fry showed up, the bellies of the 5" to 10" bass started appearing fuller. Some BG YOY had reached 4" by the time the water cooled to the point where they no longer were coming to feed.

I am excited to see what the Spring brings. Had I stocked fingerling BG in moderate numbers rather than the nominal dozen pairs, I don't believe I'd be nearly as far along towards having the strong food chain as I now do.

As a LMB grows it needs the correct size forage for it to keep growing. I think with the BG and LMB being stocked at the time initially the LMB had the correct size forage then they quickly grew out of the optimal forage size. This leads to insufficient forage to food conversion and slows growth.

Stocking a new pond (no fish) is entirely different from stocking into a pond with adult and sub-adult fish.

In the south spring stocked BG at 2 inches in a new pond will (assuming good nutrition) spawn (first hatch) in a couple of months at 3-4 inches. LMB 2 inch stockers can not eat the 2 inch BG but will eat FH fry and by late summer will be eating the first hatch BG. You change the equation by stocking a few 4-5 inch BG with the initial 2 inch BG stockers. You speed up the hatch process as those few 4-5 inch BG will spawn in a week or so thus providing a early first BG hatch that small LMB can eat.

Unless you want to play the numbers game (can be done) then stocking into a pond with adult/sub-adult predator fish (LMB etc.) works better with adult stocker BG. They cost more but don't get eaten in the first week.

In any event it is wise to habituate any fish stocked into a pond with existing adult predator fish.

Northern ponds are different with regard to stocking BG and LMB. Timing is different.

I totally agree 4C. Those BG may also help reduce some LMB recruitment also making it a little easier to keep up with the culling. What size is your BOW?

jpsdad, our pond is 1/4 acre, relatively shallow (averages 4 feet), probably about 30 years old, irrigation water fed, cool in temp (surface temp made it to 74 this year)

Update!
After reading all of the replies, I decided not to have any quick knee jerk reactions and wait a while (spring) to see how things progress. Well we were able to get a little larger sample size (10-12) last week and boy were things different. All but one were above 100% on the growth chart and the one "skinny" fish was at 95%. The largest was 1 pound 14 ounces at 14.5 inches long. All but one had nice fat bellies on them. We were not able to catch any BG but maybe that was due to the chilly weather. Anyway things are definitely looking up. the bass were extremely easy to catch leading me to think they are plentiful and eating everything in site. At this rate I'm thinking some culling may be in order next year.