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#512910 - 10/19/19 08:51 AM how to meanmouth
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2913
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
The Texas state record for meanmouth bass is 6.01 lbs. So, I was considering setting up a system of some sort to breed a Florida female to a male smallmouth. Any ideas on how to set up a system for breeding, and survival of the fry. Grow them out and add them to my pond. Why? Because I know of no fish supplier that has them available. I am guessing the hybrid would be an F1 ? My pond has northern lmb along with Florida lmb. I should have had the two strains spawning this past spring. I am looking for a more aggressive big lmb. And I am betting I can grow out a meanmouth larger than 6 .1 lbs. I have a place to build a system to spawn and grow out, I just need to know HOW TO? I have done some google searching but found nothing on how to do it. I was thinking Snipe might have an idea on how to set things up, if he reads this.


Edited by TGW1 (10/19/19 09:03 AM)
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#512914 - 10/19/19 11:05 AM Re: how to meanmouth [Re: TGW1]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 409
Loc: Texas
Tracy,

I think it might be very similar to artificially spawning LMB. I can't remember what I have past read very well but it seems like the combination produces a lower percentage of viable fry than the Florida-Northern combination though my memory is likely failing me. Snipe ... where are you?


Edited by jpsdad (10/19/19 11:49 AM)

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#512927 - 10/19/19 05:15 PM Re: how to meanmouth [Re: TGW1]
Snipe Online   content


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 718
Loc: NW Kansas
It is low. I don't have it in front of me as I don't recall the genetic map but the hatch you do have you better have a fertilized grow-out ready to receive them. If you're lucky enough to have an indoor system with UV light to fire a bloom it would be a bit more controlled.
And, Tracy, you may already know this but I'll add it anyway just in case..
When you milk female have a dry plastic pan-no drips even- have a helper dry fish on each side, wiping front to back and across vent.
Milk eggs, remove any foreign matter, wipe males the same,(use at least 3 males if possible). As soon as you have as much sperm as possible, pour 1 qt of water into egg mix and stir 2 min, add fullers earth and stir 4 min more.
Water harden 1hr then get them in the tumbler.
I'll get my hands on that paper but there was something about water temp being "X" for a short period, then a slow rise, I need to get that and post back.
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#512928 - 10/19/19 05:55 PM Re: how to meanmouth [Re: TGW1]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1938
Loc: East Texas, USA
I recall lots of excitement about meanmouth bass decades ago, but nothing much since then. Was that due to problems creating them, or problems with viability in natural environments?
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#512929 - 10/19/19 07:45 PM Re: how to meanmouth [Re: TGW1]
Snipe Online   content


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 718
Loc: NW Kansas
Hard to propagate, hard to get past fry stage.
I think, similar to other hybrids, these are just hard to do every other year with consistent success and there just isn't many doing it when they can get much higher return on LMB or F1's but MM are really cool looking and do exhibit some different characteristics.
I might back up on this to add that part of the trouble with this is the temp ranges at which each species will give what you need. It will require hormones to get eggs easily from the FLMB. The SMB male will need to be with like species in the same tank brought up to temp from much cooler conditions and increasing light to get the spermatozoa. Timing is extremely critical on this.


Edited by Snipe (10/19/19 07:50 PM)
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#512930 - 10/19/19 08:03 PM Re: how to meanmouth [Re: TGW1]
Snipe Online   content


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 718
Loc: NW Kansas
I put a call in to the Meade Hatchery manager to get the specifics.
He helped in a joint project between TX, OK and KS in targeting just 200,000 3-4" fish. Some of these (very small number) went into some flint hills region ponds and a nearby river system. The Biologist I work with tells me they used Northern LMB, not FLMB. I just got off the phone with him and he says they got about 8500 fingerlings from what he though started at near 1 million eggs fertilized but suggested I talk with Meade about specifics. I'll see what he has to say.
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#512931 - 10/19/19 08:10 PM Re: how to meanmouth [Re: TGW1]
Snipe Online   content


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 718
Loc: NW Kansas
Tracy, sorry to keep re-posting here but the Meade hatchery specializes in BASS ONLY and is very successful in artificial spawns of all 3 main characters but for whatever reason the spotted bass is taking a back seat to the other 2. These guys will be able to elaborate extensively but I do know it takes 2 very differing systems to make this happen.
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#512944 - 10/20/19 07:17 AM Re: how to meanmouth [Re: TGW1]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2913
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Snipe, Thank you so much for joining in. During my reading I thought most will use the Spotted lmb female along with the male smb but it's also done with other lmb, like the nlmb and it has been done with the flmb also. And I think they have also spawned together in the wild. I was surprised to see there are several states that spawn these lmb at their state hatcheries. And since it has been done using the female flmb then if I could get it done I would lean toward the Florida genes in an attempt to grow the largest meanmouth. smile


I was lucky enough to walk through the hatchery At Lake Texoma where they produced the Stripers for the lake. That was back in the early 80's so at least I remember what a tumbler looked like lol.


Snipe, if you have a chance, would you ask Meade if I could do a walk through or even volunteer as an assistant during their lmb spawning events. I think I would enjoy the whole process of producing some meanmouth lmb.


I would have thought I might see the process of manual spawning lmb through the web but have not located anything on it so far. I read where the meanmouth is a very aggressive bass, if it could be done using the Florida lmb then that might be nice. smile

Snipe never mind asking meade for me to visit. I think I can make a visit to the Texas fish hatcheries. But any information you might run across might help. thanks again


Edited by TGW1 (10/20/19 08:44 AM)
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#513166 - 10/23/19 08:15 PM Re: how to meanmouth [Re: TGW1]
Snipe Online   content


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 718
Loc: NW Kansas
Tracy, I got some info on this and the 3 state cooperative effort was NLMB and SMB. Ironically they used NLMB from OK and TX. KS used SMB of Erie strain.
This was done last in 2012. It requires 2 locations/rooms to control light/temp. They used Hormones to have fully ripe eggs. They also used hormones on the 36 male SMB to get the timing right.
In 2009 they produced a small number using female SMB and male LMB, I asked why they would go that way if smb produce so few eggs compared to lmb. They were looking at learning to manipulate the fish artificially more than looking for large numbers of reproduction.
This sounds like it was more complex than what I remember but it does require complete separation and conditioning for each species. Even timing of hormones sounds like it was critical-more so than what we do with stripers even.
Tim is sending me a synopsis of the program which will be in great detail but he did say this cross is past tense but they would still allow observation of lmb spawning process.
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#513190 - 10/24/19 07:19 AM Re: how to meanmouth [Re: TGW1]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2913
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Thanks again Snipe. It sounds more complicated than I expected. My thoughts were, the smb and lmb spawn in or around the same water temps. And I thought some had actually spawned together naturally in the wild. So, my thinking was to retrieve some eggs from the female and then add the sperm from the smb. My biggest concern was to get good numbers of eggs. And then follow the process of incubation like it's done with lmb. Now with all the info you have come up with makes me think where am I to get hormones for one much less for two? Maybe I need to find a young whipper snapper that plans on making his living in the fish/pond business. One new graduate that's has some desire to find a nitch in the business. I learned you need to find that nitch if you are going to start and run any new business. Any of you guys out there that are willing to work smile
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#513201 - 10/24/19 10:07 AM Re: how to meanmouth [Re: TGW1]
NEDOC Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 943
Loc: SC Nebraska
I have nothing to add to the discussion here other than this is incredible stuff. I love reading threads with info like this in it.
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#513207 - 10/24/19 11:00 AM Re: how to meanmouth [Re: TGW1]
Snipe Online   content


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 718
Loc: NW Kansas
Tracy, we need to talk. One of the coolest young men I have met working with KDWP is now working in your state-in the private sector. He just started this last summer down there.
I think I need to hook you 2 up.


Edited by Snipe (10/24/19 11:00 AM)
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#513210 - 10/24/19 01:27 PM Re: how to meanmouth [Re: TGW1]
NEDOC Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 943
Loc: SC Nebraska
A little off topic here snipe but I was reading about Meade Hatchery and it has a short comment about them starting a program to read native Northern Kansas LMB. Any insight into the subtle differences in those fish?
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#513216 - 10/24/19 03:19 PM Re: how to meanmouth [Re: TGW1]
Snipe Online   content


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 718
Loc: NW Kansas
I believe the thought process on this is very similar to why we wouldn't want to pull stock from south Texas to introduce in a much more northern climate. They are just taking this to a more specific level.
Reproductive success and growth rates have been studied in certain locations that lead them in a data driven direction of believing that by using Bass from this particular area they recruit better.
They do utilize stock from other areas for different projects but in this situation they believe a certain area's population can be enhanced with a bass that is well proven in extremely similar conditions.
There may be other, more technical reasons for this but that's what was explained to me last time I talked with one of our Bassperts about why that hatchery was going to Bass only.
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#513218 - 10/24/19 03:59 PM Re: how to meanmouth [Re: TGW1]
jludwig Offline


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 1545
Loc: Central Kansas
It makes sense biologically speaking.

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#513220 - 10/24/19 04:14 PM Re: how to meanmouth [Re: TGW1]
NEDOC Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 943
Loc: SC Nebraska
Thank you. I assumed as much but wanting to hear it from you. And thought maybe I was missing something.
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