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#511799 - 09/21/19 08:14 AM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: ewest]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1548
Loc: NE Missouri
Originally Posted By: ewest
SMB should be able to control HBG offspring. Hard to believe that all the HSB died if there was no predation at stocking.


They could be there, but Iíve tried everything to catch one. Sat in a rowboat and tossed pellets. Iíve never seen one. Four years now.

Itís still very possible that itís my poor fishing skills. Two years ago I had a fish on that broke the line. I thought it was a SMB though. Thatís it..

My SMB are doing well. Stocked 60 at the same time as the HSB. As I mentioned Iíve caught many of them. Only kept two. They have reproduced as weíve caught a few very young ones. Really have a lot of HBG. Theyíve apparently crossed with my RES.


Edited by SetterGuy (09/21/19 08:17 AM)
_________________________
5 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (way too many), SMB, and HSB (rumored..)
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

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#511802 - 09/21/19 11:53 AM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: ewest]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: ewest
The most efficient size pellet is one that is about 25% of average mouth gape.

&#149; The pellet size should be approximately 20-30% of the size of the fish species mouth gape. Feeding too small a pellet results in inefficient feeding because more energy is used in finding and eating more pellets. Conversely, pellets that are too large will depress feeding and, in the extreme, cause choking. Select the largest sized feed the fish will actively eat.


Eric, I find this deeply interesting. The fish seem to be disinclined to eat pellets greater than 30% the gape. Is there any reason why the same fish wouldn't be less inclined to eat natural foods whose width is greater than 30% the gape? I consider this important with respect to the size structure of prey fish for optimum predator growth and ultimate standing weight (especially in a two species combination like LMB and BG). If the same rule would apply to LMB it would suggest that optimum forage length is attainable within the first year or year and a half of BG life. Under optimum growth conditions BG YOY could achieve it as well.

LMB have gape width of about 15% their length and bluegill have a height of about 36% their length. For a 20" LMB, a BG that has height of 30% the gape width is 2.5" long. Beyond 20" I think that ratio of gape width and length does increase (same as it does for any LMB whose growth is slowing). But even at 20% gape-width/length for a 25" LMB, the BG whose height is 30% the gape width is less than 4.25" in length.

The problem with this is that these prey only constitute about 0.5% the weight of the predator. At 1%, the most frequent weight of prey, the bluegill height as a percentage of LMB gape width is between 36% and 50%.

These are realized ratios that are based on prey recovered from LMB and sourced to the data of a number of DOW. A realized diet might differ from an optimum diet and it is worth asking whether the LMB might have been inclined to smaller prey than they were eating. Were they, perhaps, forced to eat larger prey than optimum due to the limited availability of smaller prey? At 1/2 the width of realized prey, we would be talking between .18 to .25 for the bluegill height to LMB gape width ratio a number not too dissimilar from the size you reference as "the largest size the fish will actively eat". With pellets the size of the food can be tightly controlled and the weight of pellets consumed determined very accurately. The ratio that you mention above seems to suggest that their exists behavioral inclination with respect to the size of food items.


Edited by jpsdad (09/21/19 01:03 PM)

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#511804 - 09/21/19 12:07 PM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: NEDOC]
NEDOC Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 943
Loc: SC Nebraska
Interesting numbers JP.
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#511810 - 09/21/19 06:19 PM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: NEDOC]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
It is very interesting NEDOC. As I have thought about it further, I've wondered if the realized prey is not actually optimum. One way to reconcile this is by the prey cross section. A predator may be most inclined to capture prey whose cross sectional area falls in a particular range.

With regard to the pellet, consider a chunk most appropriate for a 20" LMB which is .15*20*.25 = .75" and this displaces about .015 lbs of water or about 0.3% the weight of the 20" LMB at standard weight.

The cross section, however, most closely resembles prey of fusiform shape. Consider the juvenile LMB which is not precisely fusiform but only modestly laterally compressed. We can calculate the required width to have a comparable cross section to the optimum pellet. If we assume the optimum LMB prey weight to be 1% its weight then it will be 5" long. Given an LMB has a height ~23% its length (.23*5=1.15")one may calculate the width required to match the ideal pellet cross section:

_____.75^2
W = -------- = .49"
______1.15

OK So I don't know the width of a 5" LMB but if it is about 1/2 inch then the ideal pellet cross section is consistent with juvenile LMB prey at 1% relative weight.

We can also consider BG prey. At 1 percent for the 20" LMB, we get BG 4.1" long with a height of 1.48". Calculating the width to match the ideal pellet cross section:


______.75^2
W = -------- = .38" ~ 3/8"
______1.48

Again I don't know if the width of 4.1" BG is ~3/8 inch ... but if it is ... then the ideal pellet cross section is consistent with BG prey weight at 1% relative weight.

It seems to me that it is worth further investigation if for no other reason than to test the hypothesis. If confirmed, we have two different observations that are in corroboration. The pellet observations are controlled and their inclination to eat pellets probabilistically according to cross section can be argued to be related to innate behavior. We may argue this because pellets are not animate and cannot evade predation. If this cross section is consistent with the cross section of the most probable realized prey we have a powerful argument that realized prey are the same prey a predator is most inclined (by behavior as demonstrated by pellet consumption) to eat.

Under such a scenario the distribution of prey is of critical importance. It is possible to have a predator in declining condition despite there being a preponderance of prey that it could swallow if it were only inclined to do so.


Edited by jpsdad (09/21/19 06:42 PM)

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#512725 - 10/13/19 09:54 PM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: NEDOC]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
Quote:
It was exactly 4 months to the day since I got them from Keo. Once again, I can't say enough good things about my experience with Keo and how great HSB were to work with. Such an easy fish to feed train and raise. We started with 1200 fish, and I'm guessing we finished with a very similar number.


NEDOC, I have a couple of questions that I am hoping you might have answers. First, would you happen to know the minimum number they will sell/ship and do you think they might ship quantities as few as 200? Second, yours arrived on or around June 22nd. Would you happen know if they are available at earlier dates or is this the time when their first crops are ready?

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#512731 - 10/14/19 10:04 AM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: jpsdad]
NEDOC Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 943
Loc: SC Nebraska
Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Quote:
It was exactly 4 months to the day since I got them from Keo. Once again, I can't say enough good things about my experience with Keo and how great HSB were to work with. Such an easy fish to feed train and raise. We started with 1200 fish, and I'm guessing we finished with a very similar number.


NEDOC, I have a couple of questions that I am hoping you might have answers. First, would you happen to know the minimum number they will sell/ship and do you think they might ship quantities as few as 200? Second, yours arrived on or around June 22nd. Would you happen know if they are available at earlier dates or is this the time when their first crops are ready?


I don't have definitive answers for that but I'll give my best shot. I would guess they do sell 200 at a time. BUT, when they've shipped to me they ship them in boxes of 400. Considering a good portion of your cost is going to be the shipping portion of it, I think I'd buy 400 (I think the cost of fish is .20 per fish, the rest is shipping) and then when the time comes introduce as many as needed to your filet knife. And I'm almost certain that mid to late June has been their first crop the last couple years, but they did say the weather had them running a bit behind both years.
_________________________
Just a Pond Boss 'sponge'

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#512733 - 10/14/19 10:27 AM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: NEDOC]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5520
Loc: SE Kansas
I tried to get some this year but it was too late.

If a person wants some it seems it might be important to order them early in the season.

I plan to contact them next March or so and get some ordered.

I have a 1/20th acre forage pond full of FHM for them to go into as a grow out pond.

I was wondering how many to get. Sounds like 400 might be a good number. Wife and I may just make a road trip down there to pick them up. We are only about half as far away as NEDOC.
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

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#512735 - 10/14/19 10:49 AM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: NEDOC]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 2122
Loc: West Michigan
and when is the latest they ship in the season?

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#512737 - 10/14/19 11:00 AM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: canyoncreek]
NEDOC Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 943
Loc: SC Nebraska
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
and when is the latest they ship in the season?


I have no idea on that either as I've always called them early to get them ordered and shipped asap.

Go get some snrub. And make sure to start a thread chronicling your progress. I love HSB. They seem like the ultimate pond fish. Fight great, taste great, cheap, easy to grow out and numbers are easily controlled. And if they don't have any, I have a young man up here selling some of this years hatch.
_________________________
Just a Pond Boss 'sponge'

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#512749 - 10/14/19 03:31 PM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: NEDOC]
RStringer Offline


Registered: 06/06/18
Posts: 438
Loc: Parsons KS
Do they have a web site (KEO FISH FARM)? I have did a little searching and not coming up with one. Lots of articles about them.
_________________________
The people who say I can't do it can just sit the @^#% down and watch me. Friends call me Rusto I also subscribe to pond boss mag.

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#512751 - 10/14/19 04:02 PM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: NEDOC]
roundy Offline


Registered: 09/10/16
Posts: 262
Loc: Central Illinois
Oh that's an interesting prospect...
HSB only pond, well forage also. Stock only appropriate forage, let multiply for year one. Stock HSB only and let them grow to size, harvest and start again. You would have a down year every so often but the fishing the other years may make it worth the wait. Not ladder stocking so much as total harvest then start over again.

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#512753 - 10/14/19 05:47 PM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: NEDOC]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
Roundy,

Its funny you mention that cause I have been recently been considering the concept of HSB only. I've a small property where I think I will be limited by watershed and space to about .18 acre max. What to do with such a small BOW in the city? Been giving some thought to a HSB in combination with PK shrimp, Gambusia, Red Shiner, and Tilapia. So it begins growing Keo fingerlings at 600/Acre to 5" to be released in the fall. These fish are harvested at 500/acre between 8" to 10" the following spring. Given they spawn in the 50s, I figure one could also supplement feed earlier than other species perhaps as early as March here in Texas. The spring harvest would focused around the later half of April and through May. The tilapia would be stocked at 4" at the rate of 500/acre. The 100 remaining HSB will work crowd control on tilapia recruitment and feed on the plentiful small forage. The goal is 8 in tilapia by Fall. The idea I'm playing with is to have a Fall harvest of tilapia(.3 LBS) and HSB (averaging 1.25 LBS ... the remaining HSB). By Fall, most of the tilapia and large HSB are harvested and the newly raise 5" fish have the pond to themselves again in a lather-rinse-repeat cycle.

A tiny BOW under this scheme can have a high proportion of catchable harvestable fish and produce a remarkable annual harvest and fishing recreation. Such a small BOW could also produce a couple of trophy female LMB after a few years but that kind of BOW just seems too little juice for all the squeeze to me. I would greatly prefer to catch and eat a bunch of scrappy HSB I think.


Edited by jpsdad (10/14/19 05:50 PM)

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#512754 - 10/14/19 05:54 PM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: NEDOC]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
Thank you for the reply NEDOC. Lot's of good information, thanks.

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#512757 - 10/14/19 07:36 PM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: NEDOC]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 6023
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Ok guys,

Educate me please. So HSB breed true and do not revert eventually to one of the original parent species like HBG do?
_________________________

You'll never know what ya can catch unless you wet a line!

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#512759 - 10/14/19 09:03 PM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: NEDOC]
roundy Offline


Registered: 09/10/16
Posts: 262
Loc: Central Illinois
The HSB only does have some interest to me as I have a 1 acre pond filling with only FHM, GSH, and PSC placed in it so far. I donít see much downside to trying it, as I could always add RES and the rest of the usual suspects if The HSB plan fizzles. Plenty of time to think it over as I donít plan on adding anything else till fall 2020. My watershed doesnít have any pond to contaminate the project.

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#512760 - 10/14/19 09:13 PM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: Bill D.]
NEDOC Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 943
Loc: SC Nebraska
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Ok guys,

Educate me please. So HSB breed true and do not revert eventually to one of the original parent species like HBG do?


Iím not an expert on the subject but to my knowledge the chance of HSB pulling off a successful spawn is very very minimal.


Edited by NEDOC (10/15/19 07:56 AM)
_________________________
Just a Pond Boss 'sponge'

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#512761 - 10/14/19 09:39 PM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: NEDOC]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
There is a pretty good explanation at this link .



Edited by jpsdad (10/14/19 09:49 PM)

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#512769 - 10/15/19 08:39 AM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: NEDOC]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1619
Loc: West Central Missouri
If I were to try a HSB ONLY pond...

I would install aeration,

Pack the pond with every smaller forage creature that would make
sense for the area for full year prior to stocking (in my case, FHM, PK shrimp, shiners, and maybe Gambusia),

Add (in the neighbor hood of) 400 fish per acre in the fingerling to 6" range.

And, feed pellets daily as much or as little as they would care to eat in 10 to 15 minutes.

After the first summer, the fish would be over a pound and selective harvesting would need to take place removing the smaller ones if possible. By the second season I would expect the forage to mostly be gone and feed would need to be increased. Tilapia could be very beneficial the second season for those of you who can have them (I have thought about GSF for my area), but reduced stocking numbers of the HSB or a higher first season harvesting rate should be considered so that the pond does not push capacity during the heat of the summer. By the end of the second season, the HSB would be in the 2 to 3 pond range and be ready for the table if larger fish are not desired.

The big trick is getting them out of the pond. Obviously, draining the pond would be an absolute, but if angling is your method of choice and they act anything like my HSB...there would definitely be a third season to pellet feeding and bigger fish catching.

Having a separate forage pond would improve the success I would think to a grand extent allowing several years of growth.

As you can tell I have thought some about this and it would be very exciting and have a high likelyhodd of success, but I'm no expert...These ramblings area based on my HSB/HBG pond from the last two seasons.

_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#512779 - 10/15/19 02:40 PM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: NEDOC]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 2122
Loc: West Michigan
I find it interesting that Keo does NOT have a web page!?

SetterGuy, any way you can create a little stand say 3' off the bottom with a GoPro mount on top (or any other knock off brand water proof camera) set to take pictures every 30 seconds with a large memory card and let it go? Your kids or grandkids must have one that they would let you use?

I understand that HSB move around in schools and patrol all areas of the pond. A memory card could easily take pictures day and night for several days, esp with lower resolution pictures which is all you need to ID a SMB vs a HSB. If you soak a camera for 2-3 days and never see a HSB, then that might make you feel comfortable saying they 'aint there' and move on with a restocking plan.

You could also run your feeder and put the camera out under near the activity and see if they are snooping around at meal time?


Edited by canyoncreek (10/15/19 02:41 PM)

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#512783 - 10/15/19 07:28 PM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: Quarter Acre]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
Quote:
By the second season I would expect the forage to mostly be gone and feed would need to be increased.


I have to wonder if there may be implemented some type of management that makes sustaining a vibrant forage base a realizable goal. Well not just that but also predictable performance in harvest and quality of fishing. To be sure, I would want the PK shrimp, red shiner, and Gambusia to replenish annually. To me, the key is keeping their predators limited both in number and in combined weight/acre so that the reproductive qualities of these prey are sufficient to resist complete elimination.

In a BOW with reproducing lepomis, I think this approach is untenable and might likely fail. It seems wholly plausible in the presence of so many mouths and so great a biomass of fish that they simply cannot reproduce as fast as they can be eaten. But with HSB only, particularly where the small fingerlings can be acquired annually and the predators of the BOW tightly controlled this seems at least possible. A modest fall stocking of 5" HSB fill a niche normally occupied by lepomis and are essentially panfish in the BOW that can be partially supported in part with modest feed input. So at stocking rate of only 500 to 600 per acre they represent a smaller standing weight than one would normally expect to go into winter with a reproducing lepomis. It may be possible for this stocking rate to allow winter growth on natural foods without extinction of natural prey like the PK shrimp, gambusia, and red shiner. In the spring supplement feed can take some of the pressure off the natural forage.

Still there may be too many fish at that stocking rate to keep natural forage abundant. So a spring harvest greatly reducing the number of HSB might help with this. If the HSB achieve 10 inches by May, then the standing weight of 600 HSB/acre at this time of year would be about 300 lbs/acre. If 500 are harvested, then the standing weight is reduced to 50 lbs/acre. So now you have a much smaller weight to support and these fish are progressively favoring larger prey (like the red shiner and tilapia if these are annually stocked). This transition to larger prey allows the smaller prey to recover and build populations through the summer and into fall so they are abundant for the next stocking of 5" HSB "panfish". The remaining 100 HSB/Acre have grown to a standing weight of only 125 lbs/acre and if they are removed the red shiner and gambusia that remain have a chance to re-establish populations the following year.

By not having a every size of HSB in the BOW carrying from year to year, the HSB go through a progression of prey that transitions from one prey form to the next allowing exploited populations to recover. At least that is the theory. To be sure, I think once lepomis species are introduced, they will consume most of the small prey and extirpate some and perhaps all of them. The drawback to a pond management scheme like this that the HSB are not allowed to grow to a large size which might be a priority for some. My goal in such a small BOW would not include HSB > 1.25 lbs. Nothing scientific about that ... just a personal preference that is aligned to a bigger harvest and more fish dancing at the end of the line.


Edited by jpsdad (10/15/19 07:36 PM)

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#512798 - 10/16/19 08:26 AM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: jpsdad]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5520
Loc: SE Kansas
If you have an outbreak of bushy pond weed like I do that covers a third of the pond, I bet they would not wipe out all the small prey fish. My gams are doing just fine with all that cover.

That is in my one acre RES/SMB pond. I have been putting in a couple dozen FHM about five days a week in also. If the pond were bare, it would probably be a waste of time. But with all the bushy pondweed hopefully enough of them will survive till spring and reproduce. I trap them out of my forage pond so it is not like I am having to buy the FHM.
_________________________
John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

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#512801 - 10/16/19 08:51 AM Re: Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass...... [Re: NEDOC]
SetterGuy Offline


Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 1548
Loc: NE Missouri
CC, I donít have access to a go-pro at this time. Iíve thought of getting one for motorcycle travel, but donít want the hassle.
Iím feeling very confident that I had zero survivors from my stocking back in 2015. Something must have happened.
Iíll check into adding some HSB. Iím also looking for YP. I think with the explosion of HBG/RES in my pond, and the limited cover, that very few fry of any kind survive. Iím even seeing fewer and fewer GSH. Pretty much 99% of what I catch are HBG. They do reproduce and reproduce and reproduce.
_________________________
5 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (way too many), SMB, and HSB (rumored..)
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.

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