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#509819 - 08/05/19 03:20 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
NEDOC Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 934
Loc: SC Nebraska
Iíll probably see how deep the root system is after the summer and go from there. Right now they have to be approaching 18Ē long. That should get them through most Nebraska winters.
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#509825 - 08/05/19 04:35 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
FLX Muck Man Offline


Registered: 07/15/19
Posts: 55
Loc: FLX, New York
Originally Posted By: Quarter Acre
Very good Snipe, maybe mine are not far behind.

Beautiful flowers.


QA, if you have a little time, maybe keep two or three of your cloned plants in a 5 gal bucket for a few days until they use up the nutrients and see if they bloom. I think there is a direct correlation between vegetation growth and the lack of bloom. You may be able to force it into action.

Snipe's photo doesn't seem to show near the aggressive cloning reproduction that yours did.
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#509827 - 08/05/19 04:41 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1599
Loc: West Central Missouri
As much as I like the flowers, I am a bit concerned about the seeds getting into the pond and germinating next year (some say that they will reappear the following year near my hardy zone and the seeds can stay viable for 15 years). So, no flowers at the pond would be sad, but a relief also. I will throw a couple in a bucket next time I cull and see what happens.

Snipe is quite a ways further north of me which may have something to do with the slower reproduction (cooler temps), but he may not have the available nutrients like my muddy hole has.
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#509834 - 08/05/19 06:47 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
NEDOC Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 934
Loc: SC Nebraska
Originally Posted By: Quarter Acre
As much as I like the flowers, I am a bit concerned about the seeds getting into the pond and germinating next year (some say that they will reappear the following year near my hardy zone and the seeds can stay viable for 15 years). So, no flowers at the pond would be sad, but a relief also. I will throw a couple in a bucket next time I cull and see what happens.

Snipe is quite a ways further north of me which may have something to do with the slower reproduction (cooler temps), but he may not have the available nutrients like my muddy hole has.


My hyacinth are growing and spreading much quicker in my large nutrient rich pond than in my grow out pond where I flush fresh water through regularly. FWIW.
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#509851 - 08/06/19 08:35 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1599
Loc: West Central Missouri
Thanks FLX...as you mentioned in another thread, your video post got buried and slipped by me.

It's really interesting at my recently renovated pond (3 years ago) . I have always considered it high in nutrients, but without much science to back it up. Mainly because it's always muddy, it can grow some FA where any light penetrates, cattle pastures in the watershed, and consistent algae blooms where some get kinda scary. My latest test results indicated ZERO nitrates, ZERO phosphates, and just bit more than Zero ammonia. DO levels are OK, but not great (5-6ppm) and the pH is almost always perfect (very near 7).

With the WH flowering aspect weighing in from your video, it suggest high nutrients too, but I don't think my test results suggest that. Either way , removing about a bucket a day seems a bit low because at one time they were doubling every week or so and they seems to have slowed down with no blooms. I still wonder it the FA is choking the smaller ones, but I don't have the gumption to manicure them.
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#509854 - 08/06/19 09:05 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
FLX Muck Man Offline


Registered: 07/15/19
Posts: 55
Loc: FLX, New York
As they say about 2nd year ME students after they have passed a statics course, I know just enough to be dangerous.

It sounds like the WH are a fun addition to your eco-system. As long as they don't get out of hand, they have to be contributing to the "balance" of the BOW.

I'll be looking back at your log posts to see what I can learn. there is a lot of info there. YAY DATA!
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#510469 - 08/18/19 10:09 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1599
Loc: West Central Missouri
Culling has slowed to about four 5-gallon buckets a week. I'm not sure why. My guesses are...

1.) The root systems seem to be crowded or saturated with dirt and nutrients even though I manage to keep some (5-10%) open space in the corrals. The coral closest to an aerator (10-15 feet)is outperforming the other in quantity, quality, and size, but not by much.

2.) Nutrient levels in the pond are lacking (theory), but I have had no flowers to date. Test results show zero (to near zero) nitrates, ammonia, & phosphates, but there as been ample surface scum/blooms this year.

3.) I may have been sent dwarfs...do they exhibit less aggressive growth compared to the standards?

All in all, the weather and pond temps have been right were they like it. I'm not complaining, just curious about their tapered production rates.

I have put a few plants in a bucket of well water to see what they do. I suspect that the bucket will get pretty hot during the day which may affect the outcome, but putting them in the shade would too...so, it is what it is.

Edit: added photos for the record...





Attachments
Hyacinths 8-18-19 01.jpg (400 downloads)
Hyacinths 8-18-19 02.jpg (408 downloads)



Edited by Quarter Acre (08/18/19 11:47 AM)
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#510484 - 08/18/19 10:37 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
NEDOC Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 934
Loc: SC Nebraska
Iíve put some in my grow out pond that I cycle water through regularly to manage nutrients and I get very little response from wh. In my larger pond that is nutrient rich they grow like crazy. Iím thinking those in your bucket may not do much.
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#510491 - 08/19/19 08:08 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1599
Loc: West Central Missouri
There's a possibility that the WH blooms when nutrients run low, so, I have put some of my culled plants in a bucket with well water to see if they bloom sooner than the ones in the pond (or fade and die).
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#510500 - 08/19/19 10:08 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
NEDOC Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 934
Loc: SC Nebraska
Mine has really taken off now. I'm about to mount my Texas Hunter on it and deploy it.

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#510755 - 08/26/19 12:42 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 644
Loc: NW Kansas
After my flood... check out the color and vigor of these since flood..
Nutrients were very obviously lacking before.
Probably doubled in 2 weeks.



Edited by Snipe (08/26/19 12:44 AM)
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#510762 - 08/26/19 08:33 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1599
Loc: West Central Missouri
Nutrients is certainly a key factor. Your plants look real nice!

It has been an interesting year at my pond and the WH have been a useful tool to back up my water quality tests. It would appear that my pond lacks nutrients, at least at certain times of the year. I look forward to next spring's water testing to further my knowledge of my BOW.

I am a bit on the fence whether to put the WH in next year or not. Maybe just less of them or only in the early summer...IDK. The early season water testing may help make that decision. My land leaser fertilizes the pastures (~ 15 acres in the watershed) in the spring and that may have caused my early obnoxious blooms. For the last month the water has been relatively bloom-less.

One of these days I will have my pond "meistered"! maybe.
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#511347 - 09/09/19 08:26 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1599
Loc: West Central Missouri
I quick update: The WH have been going gang busters for the last few weeks. It seems that they weakened through the hottest part of the summer, but have actually improved in appearance and growth rate since. On average, to date, I have estimated that I have culled one 5 gallon bucket a day. De-watered and slightly compacted, the plants that fit in the bucket weight 10 pounds and I have removed 51 buckets (equals 510 pounds green weight). Using PaPond's water percentage (95.87%), I have removed over 20 pounds of biomass.

I expect the plants to continue on through September at a similar rate...we will see.







Attachments
WH 9-9-19 01.jpg (256 downloads)
WH 9-9-19 02.jpg (251 downloads)

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#511355 - 09/09/19 11:59 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 644
Loc: NW Kansas
QA, I haven't taken a pic but mine literally grew out of my floaty fixture. Now they are all over the pond in 3-4' groups. Only 2 flowers ever seen and I'm going to just let them go until the cold hits. I think I had actually burned most of the nutrient load up before the flood because the WH looked so poor and really didn't spread much. After the flood, they got huge, turned bright/deep green and exploded. I believe there is a limit of nutrients they can pull that is still above a clear (cleaner)-water situation where plant life slows. I just hope my Sago comes back, flood just cleaned it out.
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#511400 - 09/10/19 03:48 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1599
Loc: West Central Missouri
Snipe, I culled several buckets last night as I had not done so in several days and I can see how, if left to their own, they could expand so much that they push out under the corals. I removed about 4 buckets worth from one of the corals, fluffed the remaining ones a bit, and the coral still looked full. More to come out tonight...sure wish they could go to a good home...anybody have a pet hipo?

Odd thing about this years experiment is that when the pond supposedly had higher nutrient levels, the plants reproduced well, but lacked the aesthetic vigor. Now that I have been testing the waters and shown little to no nutrients...they are looking much better and showing a bit more reproduction. I guess, in my pond's environment, that air and water temps may be playing a strong role in how happy they are.
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#511404 - 09/10/19 05:19 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
NEDOC Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 934
Loc: SC Nebraska
Very similar response here QA. Seems as though theyíve really gone crazy the last 3-4 weeks.
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#511427 - 09/11/19 12:50 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 644
Loc: NW Kansas
NEDOC and QA, Maybe the flood I had was coincidental in that I assumed the blow-up of growth was new, higher nutrient levels when it was actually cooler night? Not sure but the 3-4 weeks falls right in line with the explosion of mine as well.
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#511429 - 09/11/19 04:52 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: East Texas, USA
Noel, your WH pics scare me to death. I've seen them take over a favorite BOW in Texas, and their seeds are viable for over a decade!

But it's a clever idea where you get hard winters that kill them off. If you get a warm winter, though, look out. Especially when they flower!
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#511456 - 09/11/19 02:30 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: anthropic]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1599
Loc: West Central Missouri
Originally Posted By: anthropic
Noel, your WH pics scare me to death.


I have to say there is a small bit of fear in me too.

Using my growth rate findings this year, I have made a very rough estimate...left alone, the WH could have filled my 1/4 acre pond in 3 months. Certainly, in one Missouri growing season the pond would have been packed full.

The "one bucket per day" culling rate is increasing quickly and the corals are becoming more tightly packed. If it keeps up I will be removing 2 buckets a day.

I may opt to cull any flowers that show up, if they ever do. Even though (I'm man enough to admit)...I like flowers.
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#512528 - 10/09/19 10:23 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1599
Loc: West Central Missouri
It's been a month since my last posted pics and it won't be too long and a photo op will be no longer be an option as we are nearing the first frost. I have decided to remove the WH this week...half were taken out yesterday.

Overall, this years experiment has proven to be pretty cool, but probably not necessary. I really started paying attention to the water quality in the pond mid summer and came to the conclusion that the pond did NOT have high nutrient levels as I expected. Turns out the pond was just muddy due to an overabundance of crawdads and had some freak algae blooms.

I wonder what these monsters would do in a really fertile pond? I may do them again next year, but in one - 5x10 corral instead of two - 10x10's. They never even tried to flower which could be a good thing seeings how the seeds are supposed to stay viable for many, many years. I'm still not convinced that they would germinate in my area, but I'll leave that to the experts.

Next year, I want to try some pond lilies in hanging baskets off the dock and will need the real estate for the lilies.

I will stick to my estimates that I removed one 5 gallon bucket a day on average right up to the end. During the heat of the summer was a bit less, but the last few weeks were a bit more and the health of the plants were the best after the heat of the summer waned. What I can not truly explain is...the plants seem to double their square footage early in the season about every week or two...by all accounts, I should have been removing alot more of them once the corrals were full. Maybe they are programmed to slow down reproducing once they feel confined...I Don't Know!

Anyhow, here are the last photos for the year...Hope you enjoyed the season!







Attachments
Hyacinth Far.jpg (109 downloads)
Hyacinth Close.jpg (110 downloads)



Edited by Quarter Acre (10/09/19 10:23 AM)
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#512532 - 10/09/19 11:37 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 644
Loc: NW Kansas
QA, we've had 2 hard freezes now and my WH don't really show any discoloration?
I'm going to leave them and see what changes I see.
Tonight and tomorrow night are supposed to be down to possibly teens but low 20's for sure.
In fact possibly some decent snow.. we'll see.


Edited by Snipe (10/09/19 11:38 AM)
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#512592 - 10/10/19 08:48 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
RStringer Online   content


Registered: 06/06/18
Posts: 351
Loc: Parsons KS
Have you tired keeping them inside of the winter? I just went out and scoped mine up. Just had a few lil starts just a few weeks ago. Going to leave them in the shop over the winter. I plan on changing the water out every so often. I dont know if they will make it or go crazy iv never had them before. Not 100 percent sure these are them same or not but I think so.


Attachments
Screenshot_20191010-194653_Gallery.jpg (14 downloads)

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#512597 - 10/11/19 12:18 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 644
Loc: NW Kansas
Look to be very similar.
I've had 4 nights in the last 10 days below 32 and funny, they don't show any signs of damage.
It's 21 right now and headed to 15 they say tonight so I'm guessing that'll toast them.
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#512607 - 10/11/19 08:42 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1599
Loc: West Central Missouri
RS - Those sure look like WH and I have not come across a "look-alike" yet.

I have done some internet research on overwintering them and found a couple forum posts that mentioned good luck with it aside from a climate controlled green house. They put about 4 inches of pond mud in the bottom of a 6 inch deep pan, nestled the plant's root system mostly in the mud, topped off with pond water, kept them in a room above 55-60 degrees, and used shop florescent lights and a timer to give them some light. I can't remember what the light cycle was, but I'd bet on 12 hr on/off.

Most of those that tried it would fail about February as the plants would just slowly fade away, but the above explanation seemed to yield the best results. They also mentioned to NOT fertilize them. I would guess that they need to be kept in a somewhat dormant state and fertilizer would try to pull them out, but due to lower temps and the lack of true sun light...they'd burn.

I was going to try some in the dinning room by the sliding glass door, but a container nice enough to satisfy the little lady would cost more than ordering a few next spring. I'm lazy and tight that way! Not to mention, I'd probably forget to check on the water level and it'd just be a waste.

Snipe, I will be taking the last corral's worth out this weekend. I don't need what nutrient soak that they provide and I do not want to be doing it in any colder weather than I have to. I'm. also not a cold weather fan...it appears you have no choice in the matter...teens in October...jeez! I would bet that the surface water temps create a blanket of warmer air that protections them going into fall for a short period. 15 degrees will surely get them, however.
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#512626 - 10/11/19 12:54 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
RStringer Online   content


Registered: 06/06/18
Posts: 351
Loc: Parsons KS
So will they come back on there own? Kind of sounds like they have a bunch of seeds. You know how to get the seeds out?
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