Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Crappie

I have a question for people who want black crappie in their pond. Is it really that hard to control the population and keep them from stunting ? I have a 3.5 acre pond (still filling) with a forage base well established, adult bass have been introduced to supply the first spawn this Spring. I love catching and eating crappie, and it’s hard for me to imagine them getting “out of control” because I love to fish. My water is always muddy after a big rain, but clears in about 3 weeks. There is a lot of structure away from the main 2 acre bowl shaped section of my pond (20 ft.) for the crappie to spawn and hide.

I plan on adding about 20 stripers to patrol the “open water”, along with 100 channel cats, threadfins, & tilapia in May. I want a diversified pond and would like to hear from others how they manage their crappie population. I know the main reason for overpopulating is stained water, and I fall into that category in general. Can anyone give a rough guess as to “how many” crappie need to be removed per acre when stunting at 5-7” occurs ?

I am putting crappies into one of my ponds that is only .62 acres. But I have a massive predator population of largemouth bass that are pellet fed (they eat fish too) and the crappies I am putting in are pellet trained and fed too.

When I say massive that may be an understatement. I add 300 pellet trained bass of 8 to 12 inches each fall now(grow out in cage the entire summer) and I also have mostly female yellow perch that eat anything that makes the mistake of hanging around the pond bottom.

I sell many of my bass when they reach 2 # plus and my perch when they reach 2 #.

Crappie are a little tough to predict. They are inconsistent spawners..they don't spawn each year. They spawn before other game fish each spring. Those two facts put a damper on solid fisheries management. Baby crappie eat other baby fish as they come off the nest. Since crappie are predator fish, they are only limited by mouth size. Since they have a big mouth, they can eat big food.
That's why crappie aren't recommended for small waters. It's not a matter of "if" they overpopulate, it's a matter of "when." So, be prepared to monitor your fish population regularly, so you can be prepared to move lots of small crappie when the time comes.

WOW, I my post was recognized by BOB !!! I feel loved I realize you are the expert and are cautioning me...but I can't live without crappie fillets ! In a 5 acre pond, can crappie numbers be significantally reduced by adding 21" + bass ? I realize numbers in general are hard...but can an overpopulated crappie pond be adjusted by the introduction of mature bass ? If so, how many per acre ?

Eastland,

I'm not Bob but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I think Bob will tell you a 21 inch bass is not as good a predator as somewhat smaller bass. A 21 inch bass wants larger food and not as often as a smaller bass. From the literature I have read and from my observations 14 to 18 inch bass are the eating machines that crop down forage. You want the 14 to 18 inch bass to be able to crop the crappies down (no pun intended) before they get out of hand.

The only way I would feel safe having crappies is to have a bass heavy pond. That is what I have but I feed and sell my bass when they are 2 lbs. plus and add many each year. I don't depend on reproduction and would prefer my young of year bass get eaten anyway as they are not pellet trained and will not grow as fast as my pellet fed bass. So no worries about the crappies eating my small bass.

You know, I have asked this time and time again, and I seem to stump people with this question because no one gives it a strait answer.

What if we were to use a few Flatheads and blues to control crappie numbers....If these catfish are the "eating machines" people claim they are, then put them to the test, see how well they control crappie numbers...Does this make sense??Would this work??

Eastland,

In reference to crappie overpopoulation in small ponds, Bob's comment, "not if but when" has been echoed by a number of experts on this site. What is encouraging, for us crappie lovers, are folks like Cecil who know the risks, but are willing to take that fork in the road.

Cecil, just curious, is this your first attempt at crappie in that .62 acre pond? Is this the same pond you raise trout in? You've got so much going on, I need to get my score card out to keep track. :p I'm sure you'll keep us posted with the results since you know all too well there are a number of Pond Boss members who would like to have crappie in their small ponds.

Eastland, a while back Bill Cody posted a link to a paper that dealt with the issue of crappie in small impoundments. I'll try to find it and repost it.

Crappie link


Russ

Russ - once you've hit "reply" (to a post), you will see a list of instant UBB code options below the "message" box. To post a link within your reply, click on the "URL" button, then paste the URL address for your targeted link on the appropriate line, then (when prompted) add a short descriptive name for the displayed link-shortcut - such as: Previous Crappie Thread

A similar process is used for inserting pictures within your reply. The picture(s) must first be stored in a web-assessed site (ie. Photobucket.com). Beneath the reply "Message" box, click on the "Image" button in the UBB Code list. Then, paste the URL for your web-stored picture, hit OK - and then add a short link-title on the next screen.
It sounds a little confusing, but makes sense once you've played with it a little.
KD

Of all the many management techniques used by fisheries managers, the only one that I see being promoted here is selective harvest. This technique works very well for LMB/BG/redears. As so many people have said, it does not work well for crappie.

Why not try some of the many other management techniqies available to us? One such technique is put, grow and take management. This technique is used extensively by many state fisheries departments as well as many clubs and individuals. People that have HSB must use this technique. It is used extensively with channel catfish and walleyes. Why not with LMB to control crappie? In our smaller lakes, it could easily be cost effective.

I think the point here is that there are so many different management techniques. Just because one technique doesn't work with crappie doesn't mean that one of the many other techniques won't.

Russ,

I planted some last spring but only a few dozen survived out of a few hundred due to being beat to hell in a hauling tank by 1 to 2 pound rainbows and subsequent fungus infection. I have another source this year that is raising them I believe in an RAS, and I will be hauling them and should have better success. (I never have problems when I haul my own fish).

They were only 4 or 5 inches when planted into the bass pond and I was astounded to have caught and released one that was a very stocky 11 inches just a few months later. I will be putting them in cages again and I will purchase a special soft pellet feed to get them going again if they go off the feed in the cages. (This happens with my smallmouth bass even though they are pellet trained)

I have four ponds now. Nothing goes into the trout pond except trout.

I may actually put the crappies, if I get them big enough to sex, or even if not, into another pond with larger perch that are a minimum of 9 inches when planted. Neither will be big enough to eat each other and neither is super agressive which is a problem I have with my bass pond in that the bass don't allow the perch and bluegills to feed until they are at least full.

Kelly, I edited the post and it looks like the link worked.

Cecil, growing 4-5 inch crappie to 11 inches in a few months WOW! Any chance of putting together an article for PondBoss on the details??

Thanks guys.

Russ

Russ,

That was probably a fluke so I can't take much credit. I wouldn't mind writing a few articles once I get all the bugs worked out and tweek things a little around here. I do know how to have a bass pond and numbers out of this world unconventionally and same goes with yellow perch. Hope to do that with bluegills and crappies too. Trout are easy to grow large and fast if you have the right water conditions.

I love it when people think "outside the box." Understanding the nature of all these fish, then picking the combination you want is great fun. All it takes is some imagination, time and a few dollars.
Big fish are big predators...it has to do with efficiency. Big blue cat eat big meals. I found a 50+ pound blue cat with a three pound bass in its belly.
Yellow cat are fierce predators, not only when they eat, but when they defend territory. They kill, then ask questions later. Will they control crappie? Yellow cat are not selective. They will eat what they can. But, they like to find a a place, hang out, ambush, and be still. They move when something doesn't come by. Can they control crappie? Sure, if crappie come to them. But, yellow cat grow up and want big meals...see the comment above.
21 inch bass would love to eat 10 inch crappie, but don't bank on them controlling big numbers of small fish.
One of the biggest problems trying to cultivate crappie are the youngest fish. They eat mucho small fish, grow to three or four inches, and mourn the loss of groceries. In the meantime, 14-18 inch bass will chase papermouths. So, to control crappie, you need to be overstocked with bass in the medium size ranges. Then, you are dealing with overcrowded bass overeating the food chain. Figure out how to balance crappie with bass, provide a consistent food supply for crappie to grow, and you will be on to something pond owners will love.
I have confidence someone out there will figure out how to do it. Go get 'em.

Yes Bob you know, you are right....It is not so much that Crappie take over in numbers as much as the fact that it takes soooooo much forage to feed them!! This what seems to make the most since why crappie fisheries tend to fails so much.

1) Good fertalization program, I mean good...

2) Good forage base like threadfin and other small type forage food that is big in numbers but small in size.

3)Over population LMB

4) A WILLINGNESS TO FISH THE CRAPPIE EXTREAMLY HARD...

People that want crappie in their lakes, almost by definition, want a panfish lake or at most a general fishing lake. That means in direct competition between crappie and LMB, they would sooner the resources go into the crappie.

Crappie are a very successful panfish throughout the south and the rest of the country. That means they are plentiful and grow to a good size. From what I read here, crappie tend to stunt in small lakes while they do not in larger lakes.

The characteristics of crappie that Bob Lusk mentioned, erratic reproduction and spawning before other species should occur in both large and small lakes. What happens in large lakes that makes crappie so successful that doesn’t happen in small lakes? When we identify these factors, how can we artificially introduce them to our small lakes?

Almost everyone that subscribes to Pond Boss magazine and/or reads this forum is willing to spend time and effort on their lakes. The advertisers on the magazine are betting good money that we are also willing to spend money on our lakes. With appropriate time, effort and money, we should certainly be able to figure out how to successfully manage crappies in our small lakes.

Success of crappie in large vs small lakes/ponds.

I think at least two ecological differences occur between typical large and small lakes.

1. Large lakes typically have more and larger diversified habitats than small lakes/ponds. More diversified habitats results in more types of food resources which ultimately results in greater abundance of food organisms. Thus when crappies in large lakes encounter food shortages, they are able to shift from one diet source to another and still keep adequately feeding and growing. The ability to diet shift probably does not occur as often in smaller waters.

2. Directly related to Number 1 is the ratio of littoral area vs deeper open water area. Many large lakes have expansive open water areas compared to the amount of littoral zones. I am currently not sure how this affects a lake's ability to produce a good or excellent crappie fishery, but I think the two are strongly related. The amount of littoral zone affects the production of forage items (mostly small fish) for crappie. Larger lakes with diverse habitats typically have a greater diversity of sucessfully reproducing forage fish. The key to a water body producing a good crappie fishery is dependent on the crappies always having adequate food for good growth and whenever a strong crappie year class occurs the proper or adequate mortality (predation) needs to occur so the amount if overcrowding is kept to a minimum.

As with any fish, the basic bottom line to producing a good crappie fishery is to keep the crappie from becoming overabundant and always maintain ample food so they continue growing. Sometimes good crappie fisheries occur in small ponds where the crappie are not able to or marginally reproduce. Thus overcrowding is often not a problem in these ponds and the few resident crappie have ample food sources.

Larger lakes tend to more often provide adequate population control and abundant food sources than smaller waters. But with luck and or proper management large crappie can be produced in small lakes and this sometimes does occur. Most fishermen know of or have heard about a good crappie pond or of large crappie being caught in certain ponds or small lakes.

So Bill, The Magic question is.....How large a lake would some one need to have a successful Crappie fishery??

You mentioned large lake several times....what is defined as a "large" lake??

big_pond - you always ask the hard questions; it shows you are thinking.

White crappie are more tolerant of turbid water than black crappie. One reference I have, says that white crappie do not become abundant in clear water when in competition with bgill, blk crappie and LMB. But I am sure someone has seen stunted crappie in a clear water small lake. What defines clear water?

Minimum size of a large lake that will produce a quality crappie fishery. Hummm. I cannot give you a definate answer to your question of how big a lake needs to be for it to most likely produce lots of large crappie. There are too many variables about individual features of lake ecology to consider. In general, I think the larger the water body the more likely it can result in a good crappie fishery for the same reasons I mentioned above. I think you can do a search of Bob Lusks past posts about crappie or scan his and other experienced fish guys comments in Pond Boss magazine and find that the general consenses is that crappie generally do best in water that is at least 6 to 10 acres in size. One source that I have says at least 3 acers and never in turbid water. Pond managemant books from KY and MO say that crappie are most likely to succeed in lake of 100 ac or more. Key here and most importantly is that larger waters or lakes result in many more varieties of siable natural habitats / niches for ample production of a greater variety of different types of small fishes. Keep in mind that the presence of small fishes is the backbone for a continual , repeat continual supply of small fishes to keep the crappie continually feeding and growing throughout each growing season. Several scientific references indicate that adult crappie are well adapted at zooplankton feeding at certain times of the year. The diet of crappie over 8"-9" was found to be 50% composed of large zooplankton items in Feburary. Night feeding on zooplankton has been reported; lots of insects are reportedly eaten in summer. Crappie probably eat whatever is most abundant where they are living.

Theoretically you can grow big crappie in small waters, all you have to do is keep an abundance of minnows available to however many crappie you have in that water. Big job!, especially you have other predators feeding on the same forage fish and if you have a population of crappie and other predators that are each yr reproducing. All of a sudden you can have many more mouths to feed and a shortage of forage fish. That is when and how most ponds get into trouble (i.e.food shortages). Once a few crappie spawn the number of minnows required to feed them increases proportionally. I think crappie are required to eat about a similar amount of forage fish/organisms to gain weight as other predators. I doubt they are much more efficient protein converters as other fish eaters.

Dave Willis may be able to help us with some of this stuff.

Even though crappie are considered to have "hinged" mouths and the mouth is considered fairly large for a fish of its relative size, I THINK crappie are fairly selective in the size of forage fish that they typically prey on. I have no proof of this and have never read research on the prey size selectivity of crappie. Just my educated guess and from observations. Most "prey size" research has been done with other predators such as: pike, walleye, bass, perch etc. Dr Willis may know of some research on this topic. But if crappie select or prefer prey fish in certain sizes, then often some of the consumable species of forage fish (bgill, y.perch, bass, shad) may fairly quickly grow out of this favorable size category and become unacceptable or uncatchable to crappie. The crappie has to catch it, to eat it. If no other species of forage fish is present then certain size groups of crappie go for sometimes lengthy periods with little or minimal food. This would then lead to slow growth and future problems. A slow growing group of crappie from one year's hatch start to stunt and if there is another crappie hatch the next year and these fish grow normally using zooplankton, insects and fish fry it does not take long for two year classes of crappie to develop that are about the same size. Overabundant numbers in one similar size category results; stunting then becomes more pronounced. This also happens with other fishes as well not just crappie.

Controlling overpopulation is key to success in any fishery. Just because a lake is the correct size to grow "good" crappie, if the proper population controls (mortality) and adequate food do not occur, stunting will occur. A fish will grow as long as it lives, as long as it has food to an excess.

Folks,

I plan on putting feed trained crappies in a 400 cubic foot cage and when they large enough to sex I may put the females into a small 1/10th acre pond with my female only yellow perch that are stocked at a minimal size of 8 inches. If I can keep them on feed I may be able to grow them out to good size. There wouldn't be any reproduction and the both species would be large enough to prevent them from eating each other. At least that's the idea on paper.

I'll keep you posted on my success or lack thereof. Only thing that worries me about crappies is the hauling. They are very delicate and difficult to haul and are prone to fungal problems from handling. (Been there done that but my last batch was from a different source that was a long haul, and they were put into a tank with 2 to 3 pound rainbows and probably beat around and stressed.)My new source is a 1 1/2 hour drive and I may use oxygen bags this time.

However since my fish are not destined for the table I will be consulting with a fish pathologist about using some type of preventive medication that is used for ornamental fish. I could add some to the hauling water or put them in a quarantine tank and treat them before putting them into the cage. I see in the AES catolog ornamental growers have lots of preventative and ongoing medication available to them vs. fish destined for the table which the FDA controls.

Thought I might go ahead and chime in on this one. My experience is crappie need big water, at least 20 acres. I have seen crappie do well in smaller bodies, but I have also seen them fail miserably in bigger water.
Here's a classic example. The very first lake I ever sampled, in 1981, was a 37 acre "bass" lake in Texas. We estimated there to be somewhere near 170,000 white crappie in the lake, average size 4 inches, average age..7 years old. So, my first experience with crappie was dramatic. There were few, small, stunted bass. Bluegill were gone. This poor lake has been like this for years. The small crappie looked like postage stamps. Skinny, sickly. This fishing club didn't have much of a budget, so rotenone was out of the question. So, after much pondering, the decision was made to bring in hybrid stripers, big enough to eat 4 inch crappie. An amazing thing happened. As I recall, the hybrid stripers were about 10 inches long, and grew extremely fast. After two years, members were catching five to seven pound HS, crappie were ranging in size to 10 inches. After three years, crappie numbers were down dramatically, size was up, and HS were double digit creatures. Bluegill made a come back, and largemouth bass were restocked. I lost track of the lake after about 1984, when I moved to Whitesboro.
Other case studies aren't nearly as dramatic, but I do see several consistencies. Crappie congregate, all year, even when they spawn. Similar size fish congregate. They are inconsistent spawners. They like to congregate, suspended in 6-10 feet of water, in trees or "fluffy" cover, in water as deep as 25 feet. Sometimes, they head to rocky areas and stay there. They eat whatever living creatures they can get, and eat lots of them.
Big water is best because of diversity of habitat. They would rather not mix with bass, but in small water they have no choice.
I have come to these conclusions after years of electrofishing and sampling.
Part of me admires the darn fish, the other part sees them as a pest.

Bob raises an interesting point with his HSB predation of open water crappie. I wasn't kidding, I did go crappie fishing yesterday, at a state lake, less than 100 ac in size. Found crappie suspended over old road bed in about 16' of water. Other than spawn, I tend to catch more crappie in open water than in shallow water. Seems that given the correct pond/lake structure, i.e. open water deep structure, HSB would be an additional tool for controling crappie numbers.

In a previous post Shawn Banks elaborated on successful crappie fisheries in a bass heavy enviroment. Sounds like HSB could be another tool for controling crappie for those thinking of stocking them.

I too would like to hear more thoughts on using big catfish to control the crappie population. It is my understanding that big flatheads won't spawn in a small-medium sized pond, and rarely so in even a big lake. Does anybody have any more info to support this?

I've always been led to understand that they need a river or other moving body of water to be enticed into spawning activity.

With that in mind, I would think that a 3 acre pond could easily support a small population (10 or so) of flathead catfish that would work wonders to keep the crappies in control while offering some rod breaking potential fun!

JMHO of course...

I am putting it to the test as I write this...I've recently introduced crappie to a small pond (approx 1.5 acres) and I plan on catching some small/medium flatheads this summer for release into the pond. I'm hoping the flatheads will also help keep the Bluegill from stunting as well.

I realize that it will probably be 3 years or so before I can tell if this strategy is working or failing miserably. If worst comes to worst, I plan on shocking the crappies into submission!Time will tell.

One note: the pond in question is already supporting a real good population of channel cats in the 2-3 lb range. We love catching the cats and releasing them for another day, although I think the cats have taken a toll on the Largemouth Bass population . Oh well, I personally enjoy catching the cats better!

I am planning a fish fry soon to help relieve some of the pressure on the Largemouth Bass.

Good luck all. This is a great site.

Tim, I'm not sure I understand your strategy on controlling bluegill and crappie. As the medium size flatheads grow, they are going to eat more large forage than small stuff. They also become extremely hook shy. As they grow, they will not expend the energy needed to catch a bunch of smaller forage fish. They will go for the largest thing that will fit in their mouth. That includes large spawning size bluegill, crappie, bass, etc.

Now, all of the above is conventional wisdom. You may find a way to work it out. Good luck.

I saw that Bill asked me to chime in with a couple of questions above.

You guys ask the toughest questions!! Man, this is a tough crowd. :-)

I don't know of specific information to the detailed level that Bill requested. There have been a lot of crappie food habits studies, in a lot of places.

My general overview is this. Both crappie species will feed on fish prey when it is abundant and of the proper size. So, in southern reservoirs, they feed on age-0 gizzard shad when the shad are sufficiently small. I don't think there is any doubt that, given a chance, crappies prefer fish prey.

Having said that, however, there are many times and places when crappies feed much more on invertebrates (zooplankton and aquatic insects) than on fish.

Here's my "pet" belief on crappies in small impoundments (I'll define that as up to 100 acres). I think that if you are going to try crappie management (and based on comments in this and other threads, don't do this lightly!), blacks are superior to whites. I base this on some food habits work we did on Kansas ponds back in the 80s.

In one pond with black crappies up to 12 inches in length, we did monthly food habits on the crappies. The pond only contained largemouth bass, black crappie, and a low abundance of green sunfish. In 11 months of open water sampling (we had ice one month), we found a grand total of 1 small green sunfish in black crappie stomachs, for crappies of all sizes. The crappies were eating zooplankton and insects. How in the world is this possible? Well, I always explain it to my students this way. Let's assume we actually know that this pond could support a maximum of 50 pounds per acre of black crappies. In this case, the largemouth bass kept the crappies in check, and perhaps there was only 25 pounds per acre of crappies out there. Thus, they had plenty of food per individual, and even though I'd consider an invertebrate diet to be inferior to a fish diet, they had enough food to grow fast and reach 12 inches in 5 years. These were plump, healthy crappies.

Now, we also worked on another KS pond that had white crappies, largemouth bass, and green sunfish. The bass were crowded, thin, and few exceeded 12 inches. They cropped the white crappies pretty well. Despite that, the pond produced 9-10 inch white crappies, but that was about it. My pet belief is that white crappies rely a lot more on fish as food than do black crappies. 9-10 inch white crappies aren't necessarily bad, and certainly are better than stunted 6-8 inch white crappies. However, it's just a so-so fish in my book. I’d much rather catch those 12 inch black crappies in the other pond!

Dave

Dave:

Thanks for the reply...Maybe my idea isn't so great afterall...I'd still love the opportunity to ocassionally catch that real big cat in the pond... But perhaps this pond is to small to make that a realistic possibility. I guess I'll have to settle for the 5lb channel cats instead of the 25lb flatheads.

The crappies I catch will all head directly to the dinner table, with heavy fishing pressure provided by myself and family and freinds...Hopefully, that will keep them in check while allowing some to reach good size for the dinner table.

Maybe we won't thin the Channel cats as much as I originally planned. Any flatheads I catch out of the local river will then need to fill the void at the upcomming fish fry.

Oh well...Sometimes you gotta adapt!