Pond Boss Magazine
http://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Ari Rak, Mel-, Sdelaney, Fredly, Ryan P.
16181 Registered Users
Forum Stats
16182 Members
36 Forums
37050 Topics
503988 Posts

Max Online: 1383 @ 08/09/19 04:50 PM
Top Posters
esshup 24033
Cecil Baird1 20043
ewest 19943
Dave Davidson1 14024
Bill Cody 12918
Who's Online
11 registered (jludwig, rjackson, Pat Williamson, Downrigger56304, Funky, Ryan P., DavidDunn, LeighAnn, RAH, Cliff76169, Quarter Acre), 318 Guests and 554 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Topic Options
#509158 - 07/20/19 11:58 PM Coontail and algae explosion
platon20 Offline


Registered: 07/20/19
Posts: 10
Loc: North Central Texas
This is a 2.5 acre pond, over the last year coontail and algae has exploded, probably covers 60% of the pond surface. Average pond depth is 4 feet; max depth is 7 feet. Land across the pond is a ranch with about 50 cattle who come drink regularly and of course their manure contaminates the pond. I'm assuming the cows are the major reason as to why the vegetation is taking off.

My goals are 1) to greatly reduce algae and coontail; 2) have the pond support fish; 3) be able to fish without my line constantly getting tangled in underwater vegetation. I don't need the pond to be crystal clear, I just don't want all the algae/vegetation on the surface.

Here's what I have done so far:
1. Applied mizzen copper algaecide and aquavet diquot to 10% of pond surface.

2. Added aerator system with 2 diffusers that is rated for 3 acre pond, currently in start-up mode and only running aerator 1-2 hours per day with gradual build up to 24/6 over next week.

My questions:

1. I'm getting conflicting advice on using surfactant. Manuals for copper algaecide and diquot say you "may" use it but not sure if it's necessary or can I just use water?

2. Surface spray vs submerged application. Manual mentions that thick coontail vegetation may not respond to surface application and may need an "inverted emulsion with boom-deployed submerged hose delivery." I have no idea how to build that kind of system.

3. I figure it will take at least 10-12 applications of diquot/copper (max 10% of pond treated with 2 week gap between treatment). Would it be helpful to add beneficial bacteria in between the treatments or do I have to wait until the pond is completely treated first?

4. Do I put the beneficial bacteria next to the aerators or drop it in the pond where the algae/coontail is the most dense?

5. I want to add tilapia and grass carp (which is legal in Texas provided you get a permit/approval which I am working on). I know the Tilapia dies off in winter time. Should I start stocking those fish now or do I have to wait until more of the coontail/algae has been killed off with chemicals?

6. I'm assuming that running the aerator 24/7 after the copper/diquot treatment will reduce the chance of a fish kill?

Top
#509160 - 07/21/19 07:52 AM Re: Coontail and algae explosion [Re: platon20]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2841
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Welcome to the forum. I might be able to help you with a thing or two but not so much when it comes to treating algae/coontail using chemicals. Now as far as aeration I can tell you that most of us in Texas run our diffusers only at night during the heat of the summer because of the possibility of over heating our water by running air 24/7. I run mine using a timer where it starts up at 10pm and runs till 9am. I would also suggest you go really slow when starting up your system. There can be deadly gasses that lay in the deeper water so start slow. I would not double the time each day as suggested by some. I have killed fish by doing that so I have learned to start up very slow each season. It looks to me that you have done some research but might need a little more when it comes to grasscarp and Tp. I think you can add Tp now because they like warm water but most will not stock fish in the summer months due to stressing the fish to where they die. And if I was adding chemical I would hold off until I made sure I do not kill off all my fish by adding chemicals during the summer. I would hate to buy them only to then kill them with chemicals. From what I understand one has to be really care full when adding those chemicals during the hot summer months. If you have not looked into all the information here then go to the forum list and click on things like aeration, plantsand types of fish to choose. I hoped I help out a little, if not I am sure others will drop in to help more. And we are happy to see you here.


Edited by TGW1 (07/21/19 07:54 AM)
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy

Top
#509177 - 07/21/19 02:20 PM Re: Coontail and algae explosion [Re: TGW1]
platon20 Offline


Registered: 07/20/19
Posts: 10
Loc: North Central Texas
OK thanks for the info.

Is the warm water bad for fish just because of the temperature? Or is it because warm water carries less oxygen than cold water?

I was thinking that using the aerator would be helpful because even though it makes the water warmer it should also increase the oxygen level.

Other posts have mentioned watching out for bad smell when you first start up the aerator, but the pond smells normal to me. Does that mean it's less likely to cause problems?

The aerator manual says to start out at 30 mins on day #1; then go up to 1/2/4/8/16/24 hours on each subsequent day. Is that too rapid of a change? So far I have noticed no fish deaths.

Top
#509188 - 07/21/19 08:25 PM Re: Coontail and algae explosion [Re: platon20]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 4081
Loc: Emory TX
platon, I can help you with 1,2, and 5.

1) Always use an aquatic rated surfactant. With diquat being a little over $100 a gallon, and the aditional cost of the copper product, surfactant's a cheap addition that can only help.

2) Just my personal experience, but submerged application is definitely the way to go when treating anything subsurface. I do surface spray from a utv when the water's too shallow to get a boat to.

The chemicals applied, will slowly float down if surface sprayed, but in dense areas, it doesn't always get to the bottom and eliminate it. Wind also affects surface spraying, by causing the chemicals to drift, and that can make proper coverage hard to gauge. Wind also affects the actual spraying, and the amount of chemical mist that may blow back at you. Gear up for surface spraying.

Below is what I built to handle subsurface spraying. A boom rig can be anything that'll spread 2-3 drop lines out for a more even application. You could probably use a 25 gallon spray rig in 12' jon boat. I sprayed here for years in one, it just took longer. If you go that route, I would highly recommend getting at least a Northern Tool 5.5 GPM NorthStar pump with a 2 year warranty. Copper and diquat seems to eat 12volt pumps alive, and require a great deal of cleaning between usages. I love the pumps, but asking 2 years out of them is a lot.

I now use a siphon system because it allows me to meter flow, and keep potential caustic chemicals away from anything but the 3 discharge hoses. To clean the hoses only requires a siphon shutoff.

I like my hose's discharge 2-3' under the surface. I use heavy duty chem hoses, so they don't need to be weighted. If you go with a lighter hose, it will need to be weighted. The only issue with this, is to make sure your hose ends are above the bottom. If they drag bottom, you'll be stiring up silt and reducing effectiveness.

5) Our big pond is 11 acres, and I've stocked 110 grass carp over the last 5-6 years. They never controlled it. Coontail's not a preferred meal for them. If you get some, don't overstock. The permit will always allow you to get more, but it's hard to get them out if you get to many.

Tilapia may be a tough find right now, but they could be put in at any time. It's getting late in the season, and forage size might be all that's available. If you get them, I might pick fewer and larger if available. If you've got a heavy LMB population, forage sized tilapia could be Scooby snacks in less than a week. Also, the high water temps make transporting and stocking fish problematic.

Just a DIYer, so others feel free to correct anything I was off target with.




Attachments
IMG_5211 3 copy.jpg (401 downloads)
IMG_5208 3 copy.jpg (400 downloads)



Edited by FireIsHot (07/21/19 08:31 PM)
_________________________
AL

Top
#509191 - 07/22/19 12:49 AM Re: Coontail and algae explosion [Re: platon20]
platon20 Offline


Registered: 07/20/19
Posts: 10
Loc: North Central Texas
I'll be honest the coontail is so thick right now there's no way I can get a boat to all areas of the pond. The trolling motor gets bogged down so much it will completely stop operating. I can get to the middle part of the pond but I can't get closer to the shoreline than MAYBE 40 feet.

Hell the only reason I can launch a boat right now without getting caught in coontail is because I have a dock that extends 30 feet in the water, where the boat stays moored. If I tried to launch the boat from the shoreline I'd have to spend 30 minutes with strenuous paddling just to get past all the thick vegetation.

I might have to thin up the vegetation first with surface spray and then once it lightens up a little to where my motor won't get stuck go back in with the submerged hose delivery.

BTW, how many gallons per minute does your system deliver?



Edited by platon20 (07/22/19 12:51 AM)

Top
#509230 - 07/22/19 05:06 PM Re: Coontail and algae explosion [Re: platon20]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 4081
Loc: Emory TX
The 1" pump dumps around 1,500 GPH. The actual chemicals are in the tank, and I just siphon the diluted mixture out of that.

platon, 2 things concern me about that much coontail, but both are things I can't help you with.

I think TGW1 is right about fish, chemicals, and summer heat, but I haven't had any experiences that confirmed that one way or the other. Also, here in NTX, CNBG are on the beds right now, and I'm not sure how treating the shorelines with a diquat/copper mix will affect the fry and fingerlings. Maybe someone else can give you a proper answer. I'd like to know too.


Edited by FireIsHot (07/22/19 05:08 PM)
_________________________
AL

Top
#509240 - 07/23/19 06:16 AM Re: Coontail and algae explosion [Re: platon20]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2841
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Al, you have a nice set up. Do you have a trailer for boat and set up? smile Haha, just messin with ya! I may need something similar someday to take care of the bushy pondweed that has showed up this year. I'm in a wait and see moment at this time.
_________________________
Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy

Top
#509244 - 07/23/19 09:22 AM Re: Coontail and algae explosion [Re: FireIsHot]
platon20 Offline


Registered: 07/20/19
Posts: 10
Loc: North Central Texas

Does the surfactant cause the herbicide to sink better in the water? Or is it just to get the herbicide to penetrate the waxy covering on the stems/leaves of the plant?

This article seems to make it sound like surfactant shoudl NOT be used on submerged weeds, as it will just stay at the surface of the pond?

https://www.sancoind.com/store/en/pond-surfactant

Quote:
A nonionic surfactant should only be used when one is applying the product on emergent vegetation like Cattails or on submerged vegetation close to the surface of the water like Duckweed. This is due to the nature of surfactants tending to “stick” to vegetation or develop a thin film on the surface of the water. It does not sink into water well, so if one is targeting deeper submerged aquatic weeds, it would actually defeat the purpose of the product by adding the aquatic surfactant to the spray solution.

Top
#509246 - 07/23/19 10:00 AM Re: Coontail and algae explosion [Re: platon20]
bassmaster61 Offline


Registered: 06/18/15
Posts: 178
Loc: St. Louis, MO/West Central Ill...
I have always used surfactant with herbicides targeted for surface or submerged nuisance vegetation. After reading the article at the link above i might have to rethink this.

I am normally targeting coontail and bushy pondweed that is just under the surface and grows out into maybe 7-8 feet of water. I use diquat with a little cutrine plus mixed in (added to attack any FA that might be present), and then of course the surfactant.

When the article refers to "submerged" plants i wonder if vegetation a foot or so under the surface is considered too deep?

Give us an opinion on this one if you have it but I am rethinking my technique. Thanks. BM61.


Edited by bassmaster61 (07/24/19 09:25 AM)
_________________________

Top
#509277 - 07/23/19 02:49 PM Re: Coontail and algae explosion [Re: platon20]
FireIsHot Offline
Moderator


Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 4081
Loc: Emory TX
BM61 and platon20, I checked several different diquat labels, and none of them referred a surfactant when treating subsurface plants. I think you guys are correct, or one of them would have some type of mix rate.

Good catch.
_________________________
AL

Top
#509843 - 08/05/19 11:14 PM Re: Coontail and algae explosion [Re: platon20]
platon20 Offline


Registered: 07/20/19
Posts: 10
Loc: North Central Texas
Update 8/5/19:

I've applied diquot/copper to the coontail, and it definitely gets better, however it just grows back again. I have been treating 25% of the pond every 2 weeks.

The instructions say that its necessary to wait at least 2 weeks, but by that time the first area of the pond to be eradicated is already growing back.

I have good aeration going which should help reduce any oxygen drop from plant decay.

Can I do the treatments one week apart instead of two? I think that would be close enough to wipe it out before it can grow back again.

Top
#509849 - 08/06/19 08:15 AM Re: Coontail and algae explosion [Re: platon20]
bassmaster61 Offline


Registered: 06/18/15
Posts: 178
Loc: St. Louis, MO/West Central Ill...
I would do 1/3 to 1/2 every week or 10 days until you get a handle on it. We do not use aeration and if you lose control of coontail or pondweed early in the year then it is a matter of trying to knock it back to a (mostly) acceptable level.

I was too slow this year to get on the coontail and bushy pondweed and it got away from me in our 1.6 acre pond. It has been hot here in St. Louis but i have still treated it with a 4 gallon water mix that includes 50 ounces of diquat along with 5 or 6 ounces of Cutrine Plus (for the little FA we have) every week or 10 days for the last 6 weeks without any problem.....its has worked well and knocked it back to an acceptable level....no fish kill whatsoever.

I think you are not treating enough of the surface area per dose and allowing too much time between treatments. My 2 cents. BM61.


Edited by bassmaster61 (08/07/19 08:43 AM)
_________________________

Top
#510661 - 08/22/19 08:20 PM Re: Coontail and algae explosion [Re: platon20]
Kelly Duffie Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 1483
Loc: Cypress, TX (Helena A-E LLC))
I reviewed the linked "info" with some degree of amusement. Considering that it was issued by an entity with such a broad product-line (ie. Septic Tank Maintenance, Rust Converter, Cleaning Products, Automotive, Vegetable Glycerin, Liquid Fog), the questionable logic behind their recommendation shouldn't surprise me, but it is evident that they don't quite grasp the full range of function(s) offered by the various surfactants - of which there are many (both in type and function).
Certain types of surfactants - particularly those containing d'limonene - actually improve efficacy when targeting submerged plants with certain contact-chemistries (especially mature plants), and also when targeting several algae species. Whether or not they're required, or beneficial, is somewhat subjective and debatable - but to say that a surfactant "defeats the purpose of the product" (for subsurface-treatments) is absolutely incorrect, IMO.

Originally Posted By: platon20

Does the surfactant cause the herbicide to sink better in the water? Or is it just to get the herbicide to penetrate the waxy covering on the stems/leaves of the plant?

This article seems to make it sound like surfactant should NOT be used on submerged weeds, as it will just stay at the surface of the pond?

https://www.sancoind.com/store/en/pond-surfactant

Quote:
A nonionic surfactant should only be used when one is applying the product on emergent vegetation like Cattails or on submerged vegetation close to the surface of the water like Duckweed. This is due to the nature of surfactants tending to “stick” to vegetation or develop a thin film on the surface of the water. It does not sink into water well, so if one is targeting deeper submerged aquatic weeds, it would actually defeat the purpose of the product by adding the aquatic surfactant to the spray solution.

Top

Today's Birthdays
jkdolan, jkilmer83, lassig, Monty M, Randy H., Trent Aldridge
Recent Posts
How would you tackle this hole?
by Ryan P.
Renovating Erickson-Percival Reservoir
by NEDOC
10:18 AM
Crazy idea - pen raised tiger muskie....
by NEDOC
10:15 AM
New Steep Dam, Help with Erosion Control
by jludwig
08:39 AM
Soil question for pond renovation
by Alen jones
07:18 AM
Question about fixing an old pond
by TGW1
06:33 AM
Fall & water temp
by Snipe
04:13 AM
These HSB are getting the best of me! RANT
by teehjaeh57
12:56 AM
Ideas for a homemade swing set/ slide
by Downrigger56304
11:26 PM
Greetings from NE GA newbie w/1.5 acre farm pond
by RStringer
05:03 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Personal Record BGxRES
Harry's Pond
pond view
Fishing Colorado...finally
Releasing a quick snack
Tadpoles

© 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide