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#510182 08/12/19 04:02 PM
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I just finished digging a new pond in North Texas and found this forum. A lot of great information from my first visit. My pond is small, 1/3 acre. It's already has about 5-6 feet of water in it from either ground water or potentially I tapped into a small spring. The deepest parts will be about 20' then at about 10' they taper up to the shore. PH is 7.4. From what I'm reading, it looks like if I want to keep LMB and BG in it, I need to put structure in it asap. After structure, it seems like I'm good to put in Fathead Minnows. Sound correct? Thanks
Danbob

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looks like ya have a great project going....welcome


Fishing has never been about the fish....

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Welcome.


Brad
1.5 acre pond with LMB, BG, BCP, CC, FHM and lots of crayfish, unknown type. .5 acre pond with FHM and GSF. 12 acre irrigation reservoir that I don't know what to do with. New pond, roughly 1.5 acres. Pond Boss Subscriber.
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Believe I would wait until the water clears and cools down a little.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Zep #510207 08/13/19 08:59 AM
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Thank you!

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Thanks!

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Thanks. In 24 hours, it's cleared up quite a bit. Here's a pic from last night, probably about 5' visibility now. At what water temperature would you be comfortable putting in FHMs? Thx.

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Welcome! You've definitely found THE spot for information on pond management and growing fish.

Looks like you're well underway on a fun project. If you ever feel like you're getting in the weeds on the pond construction project, there are a lot folks on here that have forgotten more about moving dirt to make a hole for water than I'll ever know. Best wishes and welcome to the forum!

If you haven't already, you should consider subscribing to Pond Boss magazine. It is a valuable resource... you'll be glad you did! wink

cheers,
Clayton


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Where are you DanBob? North Texas covers a lot of real estate.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Lucas, TX. We're not big enough for our own zip code so we have to share with our little neighbor Allen! 75002.

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No more than 80 degrees for stocking. Preferably cooler


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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I’ve stocked bass anf bluegills in ponds that size but not with any long range success. They both spawn pretty heavily and you can come up with out of balance conditions. How do you feel about channel cats and hybrid bluegills?


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Thanks. I'll check the temp. It appears the spring/water table has pushed it up another 4-5" over the last 5 days even with these 100 degree days. So I'm pleased with that. Once we get a real rain, I'll get some fill. I'm not a fan of the catfish and I don't want to get that started, but the Hybrid Bluegill are perfect. I called Texas Fishing LLC (www.ufishtx.com) and they will have FHM in mid-September and he said he'd make a few calls to see if he could find any mosquitofish which is what I'd prefer to start with. I'm doing some final grading around it this weekend and I'll add some artificial structure also. Know any place to get the mosquitofish around here?
Thanks again.

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Not at this time of year. Stocking needs to happen before the water gets too hot. We generally quit messing with or even fishing when the water temps get above 87 degrees. Catching them can stress them to much and generally results in mortality.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Have you considered HSB, hybrid striped bass? They can't overpopulate since they won't successfully spawn. Harder fighters than LMB.


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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HBG and HSB in a take and replace fishery would be great for this size of pond.

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I am in my second season with my 1/4 acre HSB/HBG/RES pond and am having a good time with it. The HBG have been spawning and I do NOT expect the HSB to at all. It's hard to tell how much recruitment the HBG have produced, but I would venture a guess and say minimal. Occasional trapping produces some of last year's recruits and a fair amount of this year's. Last years recruits are typically too big for my HSB to feed on so I remove them and return this year's smaller fish.

My HSB went in 4-6" long and are now at the 2 pound mark (a summer and a half of growth), while the HBG were 3-5" long and hover around 1/2 pound. I supplemental feed with few coming to the dinner bell, BUT the big gain in weights is believed to have come from FHM's. I put in the FHM's and gave them a full year before stocking the gamefish. I am a believer in this approach!


Fish on!,
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I have to admit that I've spent several hours reading a lot of posts now that I've found PB. And, I've spend a lot of time reading Quarter Acre's posts!!! I think the HBG and the HSB are gaining traction in my mind. But I'm also reading that the HSB can be a little shy on lures if I'm looking for some "catching" instead of just "fishing". I'm not hearing a lot of difference between FHM and Mosquitofish, so it sounds like if FHM are available in mid-September, then I should pull the trigger on them and get started. I'll send some pics on Monday after I get a little structure in it with pallets and stuff. How many pounds of FHM should I start with?

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3 or 4 pounds would be plenty to seed the pond, but you don't have much time left in this breeding season. It's probable over by the end of September herein Missouri. Not sure about your area. 3 to 4 pounds would be right for stocking in the springtime giving the whole summer (or most of it) for the reproduction explosion.

Do you plan on stocking game fish next spring?

If so, then I would suggest alot more, but how many more...I can't guess. Two months breeding time is OK (read, better than less), but their reproduction numbers are exponential and 4 to 5 months of breeding time will yield A LOT more minnows.

If not, just stock the FHM in april/may and stock your game fish the following spring.

As far a hook shy HSB. I have not found them to be easy or abundant to catch. You could stock a moderate amount of them initially and then start bucket stocking single sex LMB. I have thought about this, but hate to risk a sexing mistake and introducing a reproducing population. I am happy with the catch rates of the HBG and will be happy with the HSB as a population control tool. If my HBG start to overpopulate even with ladder stocking the HSB, single sex LMB may be introduced.


Fish on!,
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Originally Posted By: Quarter Acre
As far a hook shy HSB. I have not found them to be easy or abundant to catch


I have stocked 10-15 HSB in my 4 acre pond the last 3-4 years...and I rarely saw any of them. Caught one or two on a lure. Then this year we switched to minnows, worms, shrimp and now we catch more fish in general and we are catching HSB. I've never tried fly-fishing for them, but intend to try sometime.


Fishing has never been about the fish....

Zep #510397 08/16/19 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: Zep
Originally Posted By: Quarter Acre
As far a hook shy HSB. I have not found them to be easy or abundant to catch


I have stocked 10-15 HSB in my 4 acre pond the last 3-4 years...and I rarely saw any of them. Caught one or two on a lure. Then this year we switched to minnows, worms, shrimp and now we catch more fish in general and we are catching HSB. I've never tried fly-fishing for them, but intend to try sometime.


Do you have TFS? Wonder how they'd work as bait.


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Originally Posted By: anthropic
Do you have TFS?


I don't...although I've thought about adding them...but they seem hard to come by?

Originally Posted By: anthropic
Wonder how they'd work as bait.


I bet they would work great.


Fishing has never been about the fish....

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TFS are hard to come by. Back in spring I put in orders at two places that supposedly had them, neither came through.


7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Catching verses fishing? When it comes to catching in a smaller pond I don't think it makes much difference in whether it's lmb or hsb because they will both become hook shy if pond is fished too much. My hsb are not hard to catch but I have good numbers of them and different sizes due to ladder stocking the past 3 yrs and we don't fish for either species all that often. Never have used live bait but maybe someday it might be necessary. For now, I just change my lures and tackle. One day fly fishing and the next time might be dragging a tube jig on the ponds bottom or a swim bait.

Last edited by TGW1; 08/17/19 07:51 AM.

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Great information folks, I really appreciate it. Sounds like if it cools down some I might be able to throw in some FHM in late September, if not, I could get an early start in the spring here in Texas. The pond is still coming up about an inch a day even with 100+ temps right now. Surface temp is 87 degrees. Here's a couple of pics, the water is so blue, one neighbor accused me of putting in chemicals already. I did about 20 hours of dirt work this weekend and need another 10 or so. I wish my neighbor who loaned me his tractor would have bought a bigger one! Water level should go up to about where the dog is in the one pic. I put some structure in, but I didn't take any pics given the water got all stirred up and made it look bad. I also had several visits from a roadrunner. Seemed he wanted a drink and he wanted me to leave.

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Here's the pics.

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What makes the blue color?


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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I added FHM and BG to my new forage pond/wetland/sediment pond after swarms of mosquitoes invaded during last winter and thousands of larva were observed swimming. I think it worked. My vote is toward adding FHM ASAP. Why not?
The bullhead fry just as likely could've been responsible for eating the larva...are you at risk of anything washing in?


How are you going to know unless you try!

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900BG, 200RES, 200HBG, 100CC and 23# FHM...."Free" BH, GSF GSH, LMB & ??? 75LMB 3/2020
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I don't know why it's so clear and blue. One of my back hoe diggers said he thinks I hit a spring. The pond is ~100' away from the headwaters of Muddy Creek which eventually feeds into Lake Ray Hubbard. My inlet is rainwater runoff, but in high water conditions, something could swim upstream. Is there a reasonable way to control this?

Here's a pic of my first water samples. I had to tell the kids not to drink them they were so clear. "Almost" the same clarity as tap water. The PH was 7.4, but I don't remember the other numbers. Higher in Calcium which I assume comes from the limestone. So maybe the color is coming from the limestone?

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I would love to have water that clear. That will look amazing when its all done. I like the shape.


The people who say I can't do it can just sit the @^#% down and watch me. Friends call me Rusto I also subscribe to pond boss mag. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504716#Post504716
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Doesn’t look like spring water to me. It looks like one of my small ponds that I added blue dye to cut down on mosquito reproduction.

But then, spring water is affected by what is underground. Interesting water. I wonder what causes it.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Folks, I put these artificial structures together and currently they float with the knee pad attached. (I was going for the flat surface for bait fish to spawn under.) Should I let them float or should I sink them? If sinking, at what depth should I target when the pond is full? I was thinking a couple at 6-8 feet and a couple at 3'? thanks.

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Depends on goals for the structure. See the archive

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92463#Post92463

FH spawn near surface under structure.
















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Thanks for all the comments folks, I appreciate it. Here's a pic from this weekend. I have some structure in now and the water has come up to about 4' either by spring or just ground water. The color remains blue and crystal clear. When full, it should be 13-15' at the deepest part. We've been getting some small rains which are helping to "melt" the loose dirt to keep it from eroding into the pond. Any ideas on ground cover to help lock in the soil here in Texas? Winter Rye? Without significant rain, it might not fill until spring. Thanks.

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Are those bricks on a skid towards the bottom? If so in my opinion I would make a pile of them instead of stacking them. Not sure if even the small fish could get into that maze. I could be way off on this.


The people who say I can't do it can just sit the @^#% down and watch me. Friends call me Rusto I also subscribe to pond boss mag. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504716#Post504716
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Yes, they are bricks. There are three pallets staggered and stacked against the pond wall. The open side of the pallets are facing the pond, and that was where I thought the main fish cover would come from. The bricks are just holding down the pallets, but I could certainly put them in a pile instead of stacking them. Thx!

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Rye grass is a good plant to have around the perimeter of the pond... will hold the soil together even when it dies off in the summer. As dry as it is you have to water it till we get some rain and cooler weather.

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Sounds like Rye is a good choice. I'll wait till late September to spread it and then pray for some light rains to get it started. If it'll take a good hold, it would be nice to have that in place when the heavy rains come in the spring.

I've also been asked whether it's spring fed or just ground water. I don't know, any ideas out there on how to determine one or the other? I suppose if it was spring fed, it would be less likely to dry up in the drought periods, but other than that it's just a curiosity.

thanks again.

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For me, I like to keep a few deer around the pond through the fall and winter so I plant Elbon Rye and clover. Here in the Ark-La-Tex I plant in mid sept for the fall rains. Both seeds only require seed to dirt contact for sprouting. The clover will grow mostly roots until Feb. Both can be mowed if needed. You have to order the Elbon rye from most any seed and feed store its pretty cheep but the clover not so much.


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Thank you....I'll check it out.

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That color water does look a lot like the limestone waters up in Arkansas you see running alongside the backroads to and from Fort Smith. I make that trip about 4 times a year. It is beautiful water!!


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Bright and clean.. Just loved it!

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The temp has dropped and the rain has returned. The pond is now about 1/2 full, so I have ~6 lbs of FHM coming next week. Anxious to get the ecosystem going. I'm turning an old watering line into a new air line, so I should be ready next spring/summer to add a diffuser into the pond. So far, so good. Thanks for all the comments and pointing me towards other threads.

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Well, the pond is now full. Inlet and outlet appear to be working fine and I put 5 lbs of FHM in it on November 1 and I have an aerator installed. Should I add more FHM now? Next up is HBG. When can I add them? Thanks in advance guys.....

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That's real nice looking.
What I've learned here, hopefully... Let the FHM reproduce for a while. If the water is still really clear you may want to feed the FHM for extra boost. Hold off on the HBG to ensure you don't get stunted YOY from last Fall. Wait until May orJune. Maybe even Fall.
It may depend on the size HBG you plan to stock.


How are you going to know unless you try!

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900BG, 200RES, 200HBG, 100CC and 23# FHM...."Free" BH, GSF GSH, LMB & ??? 75LMB 3/2020
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Thanks Shortcut,
I confirmed that I put 6 lbs of FHM in on 11/1/19 and I haven't seen any loss, but then again I've only seen them swirling in a bait ball a couple of times. Now that I'm at a solid 1/4 acre (yes, small I know) and 500-600,000 gallons, should I add another 6 lbs of FHM and then wait as you're suggesting to put in the HBG? The supplier has the HBG at 2-3" long, $55 for 100 fish. I assume the HBG will feed off the fry of the FHM? Any recommendations on feed if I go that way? Thanks much, I appreciate the comments.

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Update - Thanks again for all the suggestions on my little ~1/4 acre pond. I harvested my first two HBGs for dinner Saturday night via fly rod. Can someone confirm the sex? And since they are HBG, should I only be harvesting the males? I put in 100 that were about 3" in mid-May and by that time I had what appeared to be the same number of CC which swam up from a neighboring pond on a flooding event back in January. I've been pitching about 2 cups of food per day and also put in 6# of FHM in Nov of last year. So far, so good.

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What can you tell us about the source of the fish (HBG)? What % would you guess look like pic #1 and #2 ?
A very high % of HBG are male > 70 % depending on which study/info you believe is correct. Studies/info ranges from 66% to 98 % male.


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The HBG came from Texas Fishing LLC, just south of Caddo Mills, TX. I can't really answer your second question, I only caught a few to document the growth during the summer and I stopped last Saturday when I had two for dinner. When they come up to feed, they don't waste much time on the surface as you probably know, so it's hard to see that black opercular flap. My thinking was that if I wanted to take out ~20 or so this winter to eat in anticipation of controlling the spawn in the spring, that I should only take out males this first year. Thanks!

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The 2 pictured are very different. One is very GSF heavy and the other looks like a normal HBG. Might be worth a call to the seller and ask about the specifics of their history. HBG reproduce at very low rates and the CC may be able to control them somewhat. In all the time and examples of HBG that I have seen, I have only seen 1 HBG female.

See this archive thread - https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=256325#Post256325

here is one with pics and a discussion on the matter. https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=256047&page=1

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Given the flooding event, the GSF could have come in that way. Is it just me ... or do those catfish look like yellow bullhead?


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I am not a catfish id expert so I would defer to others. They don't look like typical CC to me. Could be the pics.

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Thanks again. I assume that you think that HBG 1 is more GSF heavy and HBG 2 is more HBGish? Thanks for the links, that saved me a lot of time and I'm happy to see that a lot of the more experienced guys are still questioning the conclusions! I see where there are a lot of items to consider and maybe some GSF were mixed into my lot of 100 HBG. This is what they looked like when I first put them in. Do you think they could have accidentally given me GSF instead of HBG?

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I think you guys are great! I think you're politely telling me that what I thought were HBG are GSF and what I thought were CC are BH ! I'm cracking up and super glad I put "Newbie" as my middle name! I don't think the flooding event brought in the GSF, if I'm comparing all the attributes correctly, my last post has "Fish 3" pic in it and it sounds like that's a GSF? So now it sounds like I better research the spawning data on GSF and cull the GH which are now about 12". It looks like the quickest way to tell BH and CC apart is the forked tail, so I'll check that out. Great stuff....thanks guys!

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I am not saying that. I agree with your comment " that HBG 1 is more GSF heavy and HBG 2 is more HBGish". That is a lot different than saying it is a GSF - genetically a huge difference. I have seen some HBG that look like fish one and they are included in the post with pics. Those are the reasons I think you should quiz the hatchery. It would be good to know so you can make the best management decisions.
















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Dan,

I have never seen an HBG look any more GSF-ish than that. Don't discount the possibility that GSF along with BH invaded your pond during high water. Both like to go upstream in high water and have reputations for showing up where they were not planned or wanted.

If your water temp is still above 60, you might consider getting some predators in there ... or at least by next spring. Some advanced fingerling size would be better. There will be a fair amount of reproduction next year.

Those BH are pretty good to eat as long as water isn't muddy. Here is a fast way to clean them.

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/11/20 08:34 PM.

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OK, I've pinged the supplier of the HBGs to see if anyone else has reported similar issues, but I can also explore the option that the GSF came in during the flood. If so, it sounds like my culling just got a lot easier, just start keeping the GSF for the dinner table and throw back the HBGs, assuming I can tell them apart! If I want to go down the predator path, what are some suggestions? LMB? And you're suggesting these to eat the spawn of the GSF to keep them from taking over? My son's on the local High School Fishing Team, so I have access to CC or LMB or Crappie, etc. I also reached out to the pond owner downstream to see if he'll engage with me to see what species are in his pond. Thanks as always guys. Keep the suggestions coming.

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Dan,

Predators are precious. In the waters I try to manage by harvest they are the piece that is insufficient to grow large BG. Its tough when the water is public. Between harvest of the LMB and mistreatment (have on one occasion observed an angler using his foot and pavement to stable the fish for hook removal). Oddly he was very proud of himself for having released the fish.

There really can't be too many LMB if you want large pan fish... provided ... your LMB are able to attain lengths of 8" to 10". See to this piece and you will grow some dandy pan fish ad infinitum. LMB are precious to a pan fish pond, make them work hard for a living, they are working for you. Your pond is small enough to manage pretty easily. I think you want in the neighborhood of 50 LMB in the 6" to 8" lengths. If you stock 2" to 3" fingerlings, few will survive. That's way too many for growing LMB in larger sizes but its the means to the end of growing dandy pan fish and your pond would "instantly" be properly equipped with predators that are up to the task if you could swing it.

By the way, I enjoyed the pic of "dinner" every bit as much as the pics of fish. I wanted to ask you also, when you cleaned the large GSF looking fish, did it have eggs inside. By the time they reach 6" the evidence of sex is plainly visible inside. Do you happen to remember the sex? If there were eggs, it is not likely an HBG this early in your ponds life, though it could be.

As to whether GSF wind up in HBG shipments by accident? No but it is possible as a matter of negligence. No parent should be used in production that isn't positively identified (by gametes). For hybrid production, this is an unbreakable rule for which there should be no tolerance. They should be produced in ponds with no water shed that are preferably filled with well water. If not well water, the water must be filtered in order to prevent contamination by other fish. When its done right, there are no "accidents" (which is just an inexcusable way of softening incompetence or negligence).

F1s are remarkably consistent and this consistency is what makes them attractive. F1 tomatoes are remarkably consistent also while their offspring ... not so much. I don't think the GSF-ish fish is an F1 and I would be willing wager 10-1 at a reasonable limit that it isn't.

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/12/20 11:55 AM.

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Thanks JPSDAD. Unfortunately, I wasn't aware of my problem when I cleaned the fish, so I didn't pay any attention to look for eggs or clues on male/female. If you have any links to sexing them, I'd appreciate it. It sounds like we're on the same path for a nice mix of good pan fish and LMB. From the same supplier, I ordered 25 3-4" LMB, F1 variety, for stocking mid-July. When I picked them up, they were only 1.5" long. See pic. My fear is that they were too small and probably became food for the BH, HBG, and GSF.

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I agree with you. Those LMB were just minnows to GSF and BH. I would definitely stock 6" to 8" fingerlings as soon as you can (ensuring the first temps above 60 degrees).

It's too early to tell but you may wind up missing the BH once the LMB are well established. You're enjoying this and that's what its all about.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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