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Joined: Jun 2019
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nogoer Offline OP
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Last year i built a DIY fountain from a 3/4hp sump pump and a couple buckets. One bucket holds the pump and is sunk to the pond bottom and the other bucket i cut in half, filled with rigid foam so it floats on the surface and then connected a hose through the center to the pump bucket below. As a fountain it works fantastic and i use threaded pvc pipe caps with various slots and drilled holes to achieve different spray patterns. I already had the pump and buckets so it cost very, very little to make this especially when compared to similar HP systems for sale in the thousands.

The one thing i didnt realize was how much it would cost to run! Are there pumps more intended for this that cost less to run and can still provide enough power for a good fountain and aeration/mixing of the water? Last year i ran it about 1-2 hours a day on weekdays and 6-8 hours on sat/sun and it was $40+ a month to run. This year we only run it while were relaxing pond side for the water running sounds and aesthetics trying to keep the cost down. I want to run it more so it helps aeration and water quality, although im not even sure if i need to?

thanks

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There are certainly cheaper pumps to run, but you will likely suffer a trade off, but maybe not. A 3/4 HP sump pump will put out alot of water flow but very little pressure. You may be relying on the higher horsepower of your sump pump to produce the pressure that your nozzles require to look nice. If this is the case, your overall flow may be low.

What pressure is your pump putting out?

Can you easily determine how much water is coming out of the fountain per hour?

Do you have a pump curve for your sump pump?

Do you have the running watts for your sump pump?

You need three of the above questions answered in order to evaluate the system on paper. Otherwise, it will be trial and error.

My guess is that your pump is working harder than it needs be to create the pressure to form the streams of fountain water that you like. Sump pumps lose a lot of flow at elevated pressures (yet low pressure compared to other pumps). If this is the case, you need to know how much flow makes your fountain the way you like it and then look for a lower wattage pump with that kind of flow. This new pump would need to be a more positive displacement pump in order to supply the fountain with enough water and be able to maintain the pressure requirements of the nozzles.

I feel like I'm getting too wordy so I'll stop here and wait for the questions above to be answered.


Fish on!,
Noel
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Another thing to consider is lift. With the pump sitting on the bottom, depending on how deep it is, it's working harder to get water to the surface.

I just installed a waterfall pump (4/10 hp) with a makeshift nozzle and it currently hangs off my dock and sprays a single stream 30' out into the pond. The plan is to suspend it in a milk crate under some kind of flotation if I can convince myself on how to wire it safely.

I'm not sure how much juice its using, but I think having it positioned a couple feet down would be much more cost effective than sitting on the bottom in 11'. Its rated to lift 26'.

I guess I'll find out how efficient it is when I get my next bill.


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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When considering pump Lift (or head), it is only applicable to the distance above the water's surface that it is pumping the water. It makes negligible difference if the pump is on the bottom or at the surface. This is due to the buoyancy of the water in the pipe compared to the buoyancy of water surrounding the pipe...they are the same. Once the pipe leaves the water...you have to compare the water buoyancy to the density of air which is greatly different, gravity starts to apply. Think of it as when you pick up a big rock that is under water, when it comes out of the water...it gets alot heavier and harder to lift...Picking up an item with the same density/specific gravity of water (a water balloon) while it is in the water takes no effort, once that balloon gets out of the water, you start to feel it's weight. That's when the pump starts to "work".

You can get some resistance (or back pressure) due to the length of the pipe going considerable lengths, but for pond and lake depths, even that is barely a factor.

The main specifications to consider are...Flow (GPM for water or CFM for air), Pressure at that flow (PSI, inches of H2O, mainly caused by the nozzle restriction), and Watts (power usage at the systems operating conditions). Given those variables, we can evaluate the pump's efficiency.

Last edited by Quarter Acre; 06/28/19 08:37 AM. Reason: Added "GPM for water"

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Noel
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Thanks for explaining that QA. I was thinking "head" or lift involved the distance upward from the pump, regardless of where the pump was.

There is some restriction in my system as the nozzle only has one port, which is why it sprays so far. Hopefully I'm not over burdening the pump with back pressure.


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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I hope my explanation is useful and not too far off.

You can determine how hard your pump is working by measuring the flow and comparing it to the rated flow on the pump spec sheet.

Pump water into a bucket from your system and time it...for example, if it takes 2 minutes to fill a five gallon bucket... 5 gallons / 2 minutes equals 2.5 gpm. If your pump is spec'd to run 10 gpm max...you are taxing the pump most likely. This is a rather ball-park-ish method, but it will give you an idea if your close to an efficient system or on the extreme.

Sump pumps are the most efficient when there is little head/lift with NO restrictions (nozzles). You are mainly wanting to move water with no spray.

More positive displacement pumps focus on building pressure so that the flow can overcome the nozzle restrictions.


Fish on!,
Noel
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I'm sure it's being taxed since it's a waterfall pump and likely intended to be free flowing. Its rated for just under 32k gph and intended for 24hr use. Right now I'm only using it during the day (and not everyday currently) and running the bottom system at night.


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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nogoer Offline OP
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Sorry, i got busy yesterday and didnt find the time to respond.

As far as specs, no i dont have any. Its an old pump and i dont remember anymore details than the HP rating. I think youre hitting the nail on the head with the flow vs pressure though. What im starting to wonder is if sump pumps are the best type of pump for this that maybe a 1/4hp or less can achieve the same pressure, but with smaller hose sizes. I currently have a nozzle (hose adapter) on the fountain thats 3/4in so that 1.5in piping the pump has for the great flow is mostly wasted being compressed down and prob overworking the pump like you said. Im not really concerned with the height of the fountain so less hp will probably work.

Problem is i dont want to go too small and end up with a trickle and i dont want to keep buying pumps trying to dial in the spray pressure and cost to run. I guess ill have to recheck the wattage with my kill-a-watt on the current pump and then find a pump with less wattage but thats still rated for similar lift/head at my depths if i can.

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Going to a smaller SUMP pump alone will reduce your fountains appearance. The flow will certainly be reduced. You might be able to go to a smaller horsepower pump of a different type and maintain the flow and reduce costs, but without some specs, it is hard to speculate with any amount of certainty.

Your typical fountain pumps and basement sump pumps are centrifugal pumps. SO LONG as your nozzles do not over restrict the water flow, they will run efficient. If your bill is higher than you would like, you can down size your fountain and/or run it less.

Another option is to open up the nozzle orifice and see how you like the fountain. If the bill is still too high, drop the pump size down and possibly reduce the nozzle size to get a further spray.


Fish on!,
Noel
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Originally Posted By: Quarter Acre
Going to a smaller SUMP pump alone will reduce your fountains appearance. The flow will certainly be reduced. You might be able to go to a smaller horsepower pump of a different type and maintain the flow and reduce costs, but without some specs, it is hard to speculate with any amount of certainty.

Your typical fountain pumps and basement sump pumps are centrifugal pumps. SO LONG as your nozzles do not over restrict the water flow, they will run efficient. If your bill is higher than you would like, you can down size your fountain and/or run it less.

Another option is to open up the nozzle orifice and see how you like the fountain. If the bill is still too high, drop the pump size down and possibly reduce the nozzle size to get a further spray.


This is the one thing ive never tried, letting it go wide open. The design though needs some sort of screw to secure the feed hose to the fountain head, but i can always cut off the top of an old nozzle cap so its wide open and see. It would be interesting to see if the wattage goes down wide open vs restricted.

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nogoer Offline OP
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So i tested the pump again with my watt meter and its pulling about 640 watts with the nozzle i have on it now. After a short test of about 5 hours i used about 3kwh, and at my electric rates thats about 50c which is less than i remember from my last test. Extrapolated out to a modest daily schedule its closer to around $20 a month, not the $40 im remembering.

This nozzle is a much higher flow than the one i used testing last time though so this weekend im going to swap back and see if the wattage goes up with a more restricted nozzle, im hoping it does. If so im going to experiment with some sort of deflector plate to achieve different patterns rather than a restricted nozzle cap.


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