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#507019 - 06/07/19 01:11 PM New well - water chemistry ok?
DavidB Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 82
Loc: California
I am thinking of using this water to keep our fish pond full. The well is using a submersible 3hp pump on solar and would put out approx. 4 acre feet of water per month. Here is a water sample we did a few years ago.

Any issues with using this water based on the water chemistry results? PH in my pond is 8 and Alkalinity is 220 now.

Thanks!

Dave


Attachments
pasuza old domestic water well analysis Chart_Page_1.jpg (74 downloads)
pasuza old domestic water well analysis Chart_Page_2.jpg (30 downloads)


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#507091 - 06/09/19 02:37 PM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
DavidB Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 82
Loc: California
Can anyone direct me to someone who knows water chemistry and whether or not there is any issues with using the water from my well to maintain water level on my pond? I attached the water samples from the lab. Anyone? I would really appreciate someone's help asap before I spend the money on a new submersible pump for this well (I don't use it now).

THANKS!!

Dave

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#507093 - 06/09/19 03:43 PM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 585
Loc: NW Kansas
I see no reason you shouldn't use it..
Well water is generally low DO but you can pump above waterline slightly and take care of that issue.
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#507094 - 06/09/19 06:21 PM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 1210
Loc: Louisiana
Exactly what Snide suggests. Have your well plumbed to the pond so it sprays into the water from above and you should be good to go. Well water typically has low to no DO in it.
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#507112 - 06/09/19 10:23 PM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Joey Quarry Offline


Registered: 11/04/17
Posts: 147
Loc: Wisconsin
I am no marine biologist but the obvious issue is the salinity of the well, not to mention the boron. I wouldn't recommend spraying the water into the air since the evaporation process will increase salinity.

I have good luck at the University level when I am befuddled by chemistry questions. Even your water conservation district could answer this question better.
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#507116 - 06/10/19 12:39 AM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 585
Loc: NW Kansas
You may not need to "spray" into the water but it has to be exposed to air, the more surface area exposed, the more O2 it can take in.
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#507118 - 06/10/19 02:06 AM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 585
Loc: NW Kansas
I got to thinking about this and Boron is a natural occurring element in the atmosphere itself.. we drink and eat it every day. As for salt, I don't know what the "equivalent" relates to number wise but freshwater fish can handle a fair amount, it's actually a stress reducer for fish and allows more efficient gill function.
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#507120 - 06/10/19 02:15 AM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: Snipe]
Joey Quarry Offline


Registered: 11/04/17
Posts: 147
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Snipe
I got to thinking about this and Boron is a natural occurring element in the atmosphere itself.. we drink and eat it every day. As for salt, I don't know what the "equivalent" relates to number wise but freshwater fish can handle a fair amount, it's actually a stress reducer for fish and allows more efficient gill function.


I am pretty sure every element mentioned on his water analysis is naturally occurring. The issue is the levels denoted.
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#507121 - 06/10/19 02:18 AM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 585
Loc: NW Kansas
I need to see the proper range for Boron? I know what acceptable levels of salt are so I have to ask what you are basing this on? Can you share data on that?
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#507123 - 06/10/19 02:35 AM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Joey Quarry Offline


Registered: 11/04/17
Posts: 147
Loc: Wisconsin
DavidB posted a water analysis at the beginning of the thread. If you look at the color key for the tested parameters, you will notice which ones are high.

This link might help you to understand it:
https://extension.psu.edu/how-to-interpret-a-water-analysis-report
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#507124 - 06/10/19 03:29 AM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 585
Loc: NW Kansas
I understand what is listed as "high", I also understand the link to water report has nothing to do with fisheries management so the high value doesn't tell me much.
meq/l is not a weight measurement, it's an equivalent value dependent on the element and it's structure. Nothing in that report shows acceptable values for fish.
Scaled freshwater fish can handle permanent Na conditions from 0.15% for some species, up to 20% for others (TDS).
Boron is common in well water that has soil contact with certain earthen elements and especially shale and limestone-very common.
My point is I have never seen an "acceptable level" chart on Boron in nearly 30 yrs of fisheries management. We purposely introduce high levels of a form similar to sea salt for stress relief during transport or long holding periods.
If there is a chart specific to either, I haven't seen it.
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#507127 - 06/10/19 06:31 AM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Joey Quarry Offline


Registered: 11/04/17
Posts: 147
Loc: Wisconsin
Boron, at high levels is detrimental to reproduction, in all living organisms.

When you transport fish and "introduce high levels of a "form similar to sea salt" you may think you are relieving stress but when you put freshwater fish in a hypertonic solution, you are causing plasmodesmata of the cell to almost cease function. I would be curious to know what and how much you use and for how long?

DavidB's issue is mostly with salinity. From his well report, I am guessing he lives in California's Central Valley? It gets hot there. I bet he needs 4 acre feet per month for evaporation? If that is true, guess what happens to the saline when water evaporates? His pond will be fine, short term, but his pH is high and his alkalinity is already 220. Long term, if you are replenishing for evaporation and all those minerals are left in the pond? How long? I would need a lot more info and a week or two and it would still be a guesstimate.

If Snipe would offer to do it, I am sure both David and I would appreciate it.
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#507144 - 06/10/19 10:28 AM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 585
Loc: NW Kansas
I ask for the data you are referring to. I want to see it because I've never found it.
I called the head of fisheries, KDWP this am and he can't provide it either. Please share so we all can learn.
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#507162 - 06/10/19 03:25 PM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
teehjaeh57 Offline
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 8175
Loc: Lincoln, NE
A leading pond management expert I know very well [neighbor of mine] had a well with high salinity - wow it causes a ton of issues over the life of his ponds namely golden plantonic algae blooms which resulted in multiple kill events when things lined up just right, and they did, several times. IIRC salinity was so high one could taste it our of the well on a hot day when we were parched...I remember thinking to myself, I'd rather drink out a ditch than drink this ever again. I don't recall his well water chemistry analysis compared to this one. I wonder what the range for NA is, and how "high" this is in comparison? If it's just a tad over, I suspect he's fine long term.

One possible solution for suspect well water is to create a wetland upstream of the pond to help condition/filter the water prior to releasing into primary pond. Submergered and emergent vegetation could act as a filter of sorts...wouldn't have to be a large settling pond nor deep...just somewhere for the water to cycle through for a bit until release.
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#507180 - 06/10/19 10:52 PM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: Joey Quarry]
DavidB Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 82
Loc: California
Joey:

You are correct, we are located in the Central Valley. The 4 acres per month won't keep up with the evaporation, but every bit helps if its' on solar especially without electrical costs.

I did a lot of searching and I can't find "safe" levels for different compounds when it comes to fish. Maybe I am not looking in the right places?

Dave

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#507185 - 06/10/19 11:41 PM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 585
Loc: NW Kansas
BG= .2-.75% salt with no ill effects.
LMB=.2-10% salt, 1-6% ideal for gill function and fungus protection
SMB=.1-8% salt, basically the same as LMB.
YP= (see BG)
CC or any cat=.8% Max
WAE= up to 22% for short periods (less than 2 hours).4-5% ideal.
We have nothing else in our information in Reg 1.
None of the Bio's have anything on Boron.
In order to know percentage of Na, we need to know which form of Na they are measuring because different types of salts have different equivalent values.
We have a res in Kansas that is so high in salinity it cannot be used for irrigation but it grows some monster WAE, LMB, SMB and of course Striper. Surprisingly, it's also known for it's huge BG and BCP.
Not that the info will assist you in CA but I will try and get an answer from the biologist at Wilson and see what they measure there.
Does your water kill plants?? If not, it's likely going to work for freshwater fish.


Edited by Snipe (06/10/19 11:51 PM)
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#507187 - 06/11/19 12:06 AM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 585
Loc: NW Kansas
"When you transport fish and "introduce high levels of a "form similar to sea salt" you may think you are relieving stress but when you put freshwater fish in a hypertonic solution, you are causing plasmodesmata of the cell to almost cease function. I would be curious to know what and how much you use and for how long?"

Normally I would keep my mouth shut but essentially you're saying some of the best Fisheries managers in the country have been doing it wrong for years.
We teamed up with Nebraska and South Dakota last year during WAE egg take and had meetings about properly handling fish and we all came to the conclusion (through MUCH trial and error) that the addition of salts in holding tanks for females reduced stress, infections and mortality by a considerable amount. Some of these fish were held for 10-12 days in as high as 15% solutions.
I don't care how you want to look at this but it's proven fact, not theory, that this works.
Until I see data that goes against the top walleye egg producers in the united states, I believe nothing else.
That water analysis is for a home well-not a fishery. It says it may be caustic to pipes long-term, nothing else does it say to me.
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#507194 - 06/11/19 01:24 AM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Joey Quarry Offline


Registered: 11/04/17
Posts: 147
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: DavidB
Joey:

You are correct, we are located in the Central Valley. The 4 acres per month won't keep up with the evaporation, but every bit helps if its' on solar especially without electrical costs.

I did a lot of searching and I can't find "safe" levels for different compounds when it comes to fish. Maybe I am not looking in the right places?

Dave


I'll attempt "Na" only from your report (for now), but this is not my discipline and is really a University question. I know SDSU has programs for this and you would be surprised how amicable they are in assisting at the U. Be sue to mention it is for evaporation.

Na has an equivalent weight of 23. At 44.2 meq/l that means, if my math is correct, 1,016.6 ppm or mg/l of Na. So about 0.1%. there are other variables, but I am assuming a density of 1.0

When you replace water lost due to evaporation, that 0.1% remains in your body of water. You need to calculate what percentage of water you're replacing and every time you add water from that well, your adding that percentile of the percentage of Na.

Remedially speaking, the Ocean is ~3.5% (NaCl) and the Sultan Sea is ~5%. I am sure you know the history of the Sultan Sea? So short term you are fine. If you know your volume of water or what percent you are losing to evaporation you could calculate how long to reach that threshold.

https://www.usgs.gov/special-topic/water..._center_objects
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#507198 - 06/11/19 08:55 AM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Joey Quarry Offline


Registered: 11/04/17
Posts: 147
Loc: Wisconsin
Tj, is definitely on to something there. Unfortunately, in your climate, wetlands would suffer just as much evaporation and the water would become too heated to be useful and it wouldn't take long before it was a salt flat.

You could could use wetland plantings around your water to absorb some of the salinity:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378377415000761

Types that are native to your area, since CA has strict regs for "invasive species":
https://www.calflora.org/cgi-bin/species_query.cgi?where-taxon=Phragmites+australis
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#507209 - 06/11/19 12:16 PM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 585
Loc: NW Kansas
Joey may be right on being concerned about salinity on this.
Here's what I got from Biologist at Wilson Res.
EC (electro conductivity) is an average of 5000. Sea water is 40,000 to 60,000.
Wilson average is 3200ppm on salt and nobody (biologist included) can tell me how to assume conversion of microsiemens (uS/cm) to or from meq/l or ppm.
If you guys can figure out what the actual value of meq/l truly means, you may have your answer.
I will yield to Joey, hopefully you can find this info.. it could benefit all of us to know.
Using your numbers above, the 44.2 would be safer by 300% than the 3200ppm in Wilson Res., but it's beyond me at this point.


Edited by Snipe (06/11/19 12:19 PM)
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#507216 - 06/11/19 01:32 PM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Joey Quarry Offline


Registered: 11/04/17
Posts: 147
Loc: Wisconsin
You were correct, Snipe, the water is fine as is. It's the evaporation that will catch up to him. How long depends on the size of his water body, we know the evaporation rate.

I bet he loses 70-90" per year to evaporation. I think it's 100 there today. Hot and DRY.
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#507221 - 06/11/19 02:22 PM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Snipe Offline


Registered: 10/26/18
Posts: 585
Loc: NW Kansas
Apologize for my ignorance of location there. Again I find it best if I stay on the porch.
Yes, in that climate it's going to leave a lot of salty residual that never leaves.
So.. No chance of any flow-through to speak of on this pond I'm guessing?? If there was we wouldn't be looking to use well water, Kenny..
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#507241 - 06/11/19 06:06 PM Re: New well - water chemistry ok? [Re: DavidB]
Joey Quarry Offline


Registered: 11/04/17
Posts: 147
Loc: Wisconsin
Actually, Snipe, you were incredibly helpful. It made me wonder, since I take EC readings of my water but I never used it for much more than a baseline because I never thought to convert it.

36 pages of reading and three new columns to my historical water reading spreadsheet later...

An EC of 2.96 dS/m = 1,894.4ppm or mg/l. 1 dS/m = 1000 S/cm and dS/m x 640 = ppm

This is my new favorite publication and I owe it to you, Snipe! Thank you!
https://prod.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs144p2_067096.pdf



Edited by Joey Quarry (06/11/19 06:09 PM)
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