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#495333 - 08/25/18 04:33 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Vortex 4 Offline


Registered: 11/28/16
Posts: 177
Loc: Texas
QA's simple question is a good one. How much "nutrients" am I removing? This is sort of like trying to generate a nutrition label for the plant you are removing. No idea how to do this in practice although green leaves usually suck up nitrogen. Roots and fruits need more phosphate.

I'm guessing, but there is probably one nutrient limiting the growth of the plant you are trying to slow down (photoplankton?)

Reading, mostly here, it seems that phosphates are assumed to be the limiting factor. If you wanted to slow your lawn you would probably focus on nitrogen.

I have no idea how to reduce phosphorus availability although adding lime makes it more available.

I'll bet a guru knows of something that binds with phosphates and either precipitates them out or reduces their bioavailabilty. Just need the right guru to scan this thread.
_________________________
4 acre pond 32 ft deep within East Texas (Livingston) timber ranch. Filled (to the top of an almost finished dam) by Hurricane Harvey 9/17. Stocked with FHM, CNBG, RES 10/17. Added 35lbs RSC 3/18. 400 N LMB fingerlings 6/18

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#495334 - 08/25/18 05:31 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Vortex 4]
Kelly Duffie Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 1479
Loc: Cypress, TX (Helena A-E LLC))
Aluminum sulfate will bind P, as will lanthanum (a rare earth element found in PHOSLOCK).

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#495336 - 08/25/18 09:02 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
PaPond Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/04
Posts: 177
Loc: Northern Wayne County, Pennsyl...
I took a WH plant from the pond today and placed it in a tared pie tin to dry out in the greenhouse while I am away for a few days.

When I get back I will fire up the Big Green Egg to 250 and completely dry the plant and re-weigh it.

I'll post the results here and maybe some of the experts can shed some light on just how much nutrient they pull from a pond. (If they are physically removed before they die off)
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#495355 - 08/26/18 08:51 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
TGW1 Online   content


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2780
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
I tried microorganisms to eat up the excess nutrients and that turned out not so good, I think. I wound up using Alum Sulfate as Mr Duffy explained to tie up the excess phosphates and drop them out to the bottom of the pond. Worked pretty good. My excess green water with about 9 to 10" of visibility cleared up to around 36" for a few days to where it is now around 24" during the summer months. I have been trying to get some beneficial plants going in the pond for the past three years. For what ever the reason is, it's been hard to get plants established.
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#495434 - 08/27/18 12:35 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1186
Loc: West Central Missouri
If one would take "X" amount of Aluminum sulfate (or lanthanum), enough to clear the water, let's say, by 24"...How many pounds of Hyacinth plants would do the same thing? I will likely try the hyacinth plants just because I like plants, but it would be nice to know how many would actually make a difference. My goal is to improve clarity so that I can get away from the 18 to 24" visibility. I believe this range is close to a point that problems may occur so taking the clarity to 36" improves my ponds aesthetics, leaves plenty of nutrients for a healthy pond, and reduces the risk of a large bloom die-off/D02 crash.

[quote=anthropic]Water hyacinths increase water evaporation and water temps, though they do furnish good cover for YOY fish.[quote]

Anthropic, how would the Hyacinth plants increase pond water temps? I would have guessed the opposite.

And does the seed germination aspects you speak of apply to areas well outside the red zones on the USGS map posted earlier?

PS: PaPond - I look forward to your test results...Thanks!


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Noel

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#495486 - 08/28/18 07:43 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
TGW1 Online   content


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2780
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Here in E Texas and N. La American pondweed seems to reduce nutrients and help to clear up the water from what I have seen. But as I understand it, it can be invasive in certain parts of the country or if the pond is more shallow than deep. For me, I would much prefer the pondweed over the Hyacinth. And every time I hear Bob Lusk mention good plants he talks about American pondweed.
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Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


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#495625 - 08/30/18 10:54 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1186
Loc: West Central Missouri
I am sure pond weed has its place and I can appreciate it in a larger BOW especially wrt boat fishing. But, not being botanically minded, how would APW reduce the nutrient levels unless you physically removed the dead and dying submerged plants at the end of the growing season? I would prefer not to go swimming and raking in the fall. The hyacinths would appear to be more easily removed periodically.
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Noel

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#495630 - 08/30/18 12:36 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Journeyman Offline


Registered: 08/10/17
Posts: 35
Loc: wisconsin
QA,

Have you considered 'for every action there is a reaction' and what that might be?

Your visibility problem may not be so bad. It sounds like you want your pond to look more like mine, and I, yours. My pond, I can see bottom in six feet of water. The problem - seaweed is thriving in depths past ten feet deep and mats are forming on the surface. The plants keep the water clear, so much so that, an algae bloom cannot get going which would help to block light that would otherwise keep the seaweed problem at bay.

I'm working to reduce nutrient levels as well, but at the bottom layer, a couple treatments of beneficial bacteria pellets (Muck Away)so far this summer to help reverse decades of partially decaying organic matter. The goal for me, to slow down the seaweed and to get an algae bloom (like yours) to block the light from reaching the bottom to keep it that way.

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#495642 - 08/30/18 02:59 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1186
Loc: West Central Missouri
Journey, You and I are definitely trying to meet somewhere better in between. Everyone wants a clear pond until they realize that there can be unpleasant consequences. I am basing my concerns on two "rules of thumb" (and my tendency to worry a bit too much). I have read/heard that a consistent 18 inches of clarity can be considered to be on that fine line between a healthy nutrient laden pond and the potential for a algae bloom die-off/02 crash. I have also gathered that water temps near the 85 degree mark are also considered "fine line" with respect to fish/pond health.

I would like to back off that fine line to a place where clarity is more like a consistent 24 inches with temps around 80 instead of 18" and 85 degrees F. Nutrient absorbing plants to help clarity and (maybe???) to create shade to help keep temps lower seems like a nice direction to explore. I would still like to hear about how hyacinths (or any type of plant) can increase temps.

Originally Posted By: Journeyman
Have you considered 'for every action there is a reaction' and what that might be?


With the theoretical benefits of the hyacinths, should the pond get too clear, I would think that removing the plants would allow for the pond to revert back. My biggest obstacle, at this point, is how many sqft of plants to start with and is that amount more than I care to deal with.

This exercise may be impossible because I, personally, am starting this quest with little to no intellect on the subjects of biology and botany. I know the watershed is cattle pasture that gets moderately fertilized once yearly and that the pond gets a lot of flow during the rainy seasons (fall, winter, & especially spring) under normal rainfalls. It tends to start the year off pretty clear (36") and then turns shades of green and brown as summer endures (18"). My logic tells me that the water should clear up as summer fades due to the lack of nutrients being introduced (from the lack of rain run-off) and the growth of vegetation along the shore and algae blooms soaking up nutrients, but it just stays around the 18" mark with the exception of an early bloom that results in a crazy green colored water early.
_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#496098 - 09/09/18 08:40 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
PaPond Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/04
Posts: 177
Loc: Northern Wayne County, Pennsyl...
I weighed up the dehydrated hyacinth I grew in my pond.

Water hyacinth placed in a tared pan straight from pond, water shaken off. Plant start weight 266 grams

After drying out in the greenhouse I placed it in my Big Green Egg at 250 for 2 hours and the resultant dehydrated plant material weighed 11 grams

End result the plant was 95.87% water.

I sectioned off my plant ring (6' diameter) and counted the plants (one stem per plant) to figure out the total number of plants in 1/4 of the ring. Plant count was 87 plants. Figuring each plant (very similar in size) has a dry weight of 11 grams that's 348 plants times 11 grams = 3,828 grams, or 8.4 pounds of dehydrated biomass that won't settle into the bottom of the pond this winter.

Is it worth doing this, I think so, other more scientific opinions?


Edited by PaPond (09/09/18 08:42 PM)
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#500889 - 01/19/19 01:57 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: PaPond]
Mike Whatley Online   content


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 1128
Loc: Louisiana
Originally Posted By: PaPond
I weighed up the dehydrated hyacinth I grew in my pond.

Water hyacinth placed in a tared pan straight from pond, water shaken off. Plant start weight 266 grams

After drying out in the greenhouse I placed it in my Big Green Egg at 250 for 2 hours and the resultant dehydrated plant material weighed 11 grams

End result the plant was 95.87% water.

I sectioned off my plant ring (6' diameter) and counted the plants (one stem per plant) to figure out the total number of plants in 1/4 of the ring. Plant count was 87 plants. Figuring each plant (very similar in size) has a dry weight of 11 grams that's 348 plants times 11 grams = 3,828 grams, or 8.4 pounds of dehydrated biomass that won't settle into the bottom of the pond this winter.

Is it worth doing this, I think so, other more scientific opinions?


I'm seriously considering hyacinth. My pond isn't very big and being theyll be contained, even if they escape, they'll drift to the windward side of the pond where they ca be raked out.

They awfully pretty, and i can can get them easily at no cost
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.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!

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#500897 - 01/19/19 04:55 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12820
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Good work PaPond. They are very good at sequestering nutrients. In areas where the pond has ice they should not sprout after a freezing winter. The will clear the water and compete with phytoplankton and FA. There is very likely something in the literature about the nutrient content of the water hyacinth.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/19/19 04:58 PM)
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#500900 - 01/19/19 05:14 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Mike Whatley Online   content


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 1128
Loc: Louisiana
Thanks for the vote of confidence Bill.

I'm hoping to kill three birds with one stone here (hope I'm not being greedy). Both islands will be a combined 48 square feet of surface area. My plan is to anchor one over deeper water, out from the main spawning area, and the other on the opposite side of the pond.

Once established, their root systems will dangle beneath the wire floor, providing cover for YOY, fry, GAMs and hopefully some grass shrimp, while also consuming nutrients, and proving some much needed shade during the summer. Those days of 99* surface temps get a little unnerving.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!

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#505433 - 05/07/19 12:16 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1186
Loc: West Central Missouri
Mike, Are you doing the WH thing this year?

I have ordered a a few and will be giving it a go.

I think I will start off with some 1" Pex line hula hoops to see how they get started and then upgrade to a light duty pvc rectangle anchored to the side of my gangway. If I get that far, a second rectangle will be deployed on the other side of the dock. This way I can cull them from the dock and not mess with getting the boat out...if I'm lucky and they don't escape!

At any rate...A big thanks to the participants in this thread and post some pics of your WH islands if you can share. I haven't bought any PVC yet, maybe someone has a better/cheaper way.
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Fish on!,
Noel

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#505993 - 05/16/19 02:40 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1186
Loc: West Central Missouri
Well, it turns out that I didn't have any scrap 1" PEX, so I bit the bullet and spent the $40 to put together a 10 foot square out of 2" PVC DWV Pipe. If this fills up with plants quickly I'll make a second one and see what happens. I opted to add rubber splice connectors at each corner so that the corral could be broken down and stored more easily through the winter.



Attachments
WH Corral.jpg (292 downloads)

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Fish on!,
Noel

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#506944 - 06/06/19 08:56 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1186
Loc: West Central Missouri
UPDATE: I received the WH and kept them in a bucket for a week or so to watch for duckweed hitchhikers and the like (none found). All 4 of the WH could have been stuffed into a regular sandwich bag upon receiving them. They have been in the PVC corral now for about three weeks and I don't think you could stuff them in a gallon zip-lock now. The water temps were in the low sixties when they were put in the pond and the temps are now pushing 80. I think their growth will accelerate as the pond continues to warm up.
_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#506952 - 06/06/19 10:12 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Mike Whatley Online   content


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 1128
Loc: Louisiana
I can assure you...they will!! That corral will likely be full by the end of summer.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!

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#506960 - 06/06/19 01:04 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1186
Loc: West Central Missouri
I'm really hoping that I have to make a second corral AND that I have to cull plants out...we'll see!
_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#506985 - 06/06/19 08:12 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Mike Whatley Online   content


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 1128
Loc: Louisiana
I would love to put them in my pond, but down here they grow too aggressively and once they drop their seeds there's no getting rid of them. I can show you canals in the marsh that have been completely choked closed with them.

I'm still looking for something that will float like hyacinth and can be corralled but so far all I've found is water lettuce and I'm not sure if they're considered invasive here either.

Edit: water lettuce is illegal in Louisiana as well as hyacinth.


Edited by Mike Whatley (06/06/19 09:47 PM)
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!

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#507000 - 06/07/19 08:34 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
DavidDunn Offline


Registered: 04/11/19
Posts: 8
Loc: Newton, IA
will grass carp eat the hyacinth? Thanks!
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2.5 acres with LMB, RES, BG and CC

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#507001 - 06/07/19 08:44 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: DavidDunn]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1186
Loc: West Central Missouri
Originally Posted By: DavidDunn
will grass carp eat the hyacinth? Thanks!


I don't know first hand, but the web says that the GC will eat them, but the GC is not recommended as a control device. I don't think they could keep up with the WH's reproduction rate in areas where it is a menace.

The real question might be...do they prefer them over what is already available in your pond?
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Fish on!,
Noel

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#507002 - 06/07/19 08:59 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
DavidDunn Offline


Registered: 04/11/19
Posts: 8
Loc: Newton, IA
Thanks QA! I was thinking about giving this a chance. My watershed is all Iowa farmland and I am hoping this will take out some nutrients. I just purchased this land last year and unfortunately the previous owner put several GC in years ago.
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2.5 acres with LMB, RES, BG and CC

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#507004 - 06/07/19 09:49 AM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1186
Loc: West Central Missouri
David, The jury is still out on how much the WH will reproduce in my pond, but if carp are a concern, I imagine the "corral" could be basketed with chicken wire & zip-ties pretty easily.
_________________________
Fish on!,
Noel

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#507017 - 06/07/19 12:43 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Mike Whatley Online   content


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 1128
Loc: Louisiana
I'd consider doing that anyway. Not just chicken wire, but screen on top of that as well to try to catch any seeds from being deposited in the pond...just in case you decide WH was a bad idea.
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!

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#507024 - 06/07/19 05:02 PM Re: Reducing Nutrient Levels in Small Pond with Plants [Re: Quarter Acre]
Mike Whatley Online   content


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 1128
Loc: Louisiana
Been researching this plant a bit in hopes to maybe try it in my pond. Wouldn't you know it...it is also illegal in La as well as Ca. Looks like I'm going to have to go with lilies.

Side note: I did find out the Botswana can either be planted or allowed to just float freely.


Edited by Mike Whatley (06/07/19 05:03 PM)
_________________________
.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!

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