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#506229 - 05/21/19 10:40 AM Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do?
Custom 68 Offline


Registered: 05/09/14
Posts: 144
Loc: Springfield MO area
hello all, I debated on asking but decided to look for inputs. My pond gets a lot of run off during bigger rain events. Well my neighbor decided to disk his 20 or so acre field for the second time this year yesterday right before the rain. Now with a few inches of rain it ended up in my pond.
Now I don't think there is anything but dirt (no chemicals) but my 1 acre pond is a mess. I am concerned about a fish kill or a genera kill. I do have aeration at 18 feet. The water is still running out of my pond. Should I be running the aeration right now? It is set to come on later this afternoon. I can turn it on if you all think that is best.
thanks for the input
Dave
_________________________
Thanks
Dave
1 acre pond.

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#506235 - 05/21/19 11:17 AM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
DrLuke Offline


Registered: 06/04/15
Posts: 437
Loc: Grinnell, IA
I can only chime in with my similar situation. I get ~ 60 acres of Ag run off feeding my pond. It does go through two silt ponds and some grass, which helps. BUT, last fall we received 13 inches (yes, 13) over a 2 day period, which turned the pond into chocolate milk for almost 2 weeks. I continued to run aeration non stop throughout (even though I wondered if the turbulence from the diffusers would prolong the particle suspension). No overt evidence of a fish kill later in the fall, and good ice fishing this winter.
And in the past 5 days, we've gotten over 5 inches, with some coming in 1 or 2 inch gully washers. Pond is again chocolate milk color, with a white jig invisible in 2 inches of water. I continue to run the air and fret. I'm gonna be positive and say it'll be okay.
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The man who asks a question is a fool for a minute. The man who does not ask, is a fool for life.
- Confucius
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#506238 - 05/21/19 12:10 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
Custom 68 Offline


Registered: 05/09/14
Posts: 144
Loc: Springfield MO area
Thanks DrLuke, sounds like we have a similar situation. My pond was looking good this year and hated to wake up to this mess. It will clear but it sure seems un-necessary. I don't know what the neighbor has planned. I didn't catch him last night.
Dave
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Thanks
Dave
1 acre pond.

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#506243 - 05/21/19 12:55 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
DrLuke Offline


Registered: 06/04/15
Posts: 437
Loc: Grinnell, IA
My Mrs was pretty annoyed by the latest rains, as she had just put in the next round of pond dye, and then we got a 3 inch rain! But at least the nice chocolate milk color is serving the same purpose, for now.

I guess we have to count our blessings, given what Shorty is dealing with (spray run off causing a fish kill).
_________________________
The man who asks a question is a fool for a minute. The man who does not ask, is a fool for life.
- Confucius
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#506244 - 05/21/19 01:04 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
Matzilla Offline


Registered: 08/12/16
Posts: 401
Loc: Iowa
I would run the aerator

I've had similar rain events to DrLuke - my pond isn't aerated and it has been ok but I wouldn't think that running your aerator would harm any thing. The water will clear up with time so long as it stops raining soon.
_________________________
Mat Peirce
1.25 acre southeast Iowa pond
LMB, BG, YP, WE, HSB, RES, BCP

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#506245 - 05/21/19 01:14 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
Custom 68 Offline


Registered: 05/09/14
Posts: 144
Loc: Springfield MO area
Yes what Shorty is going thru had me thinking and worried his happened so fast.
Mat thanks for your story it makes me feel better. It will clear up I know but there is another round coming this afternoon. Things were going pretty good and looking nice this year.

It certainly could be worse.
_________________________
Thanks
Dave
1 acre pond.

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#506246 - 05/21/19 01:26 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1508
Loc: West Central Missouri
My pond gets excess runoff and muddies up regularly during the rainy months...mud has not caused any problems, but I do worry about a sudden temperature change due to the cold rains and excessive watershed...still no problems even with a 6 degree water temp change during one rain event. I maintain the aeration schedule that I am on at the time.
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Fish on!,
Noel

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#506259 - 05/21/19 04:39 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
DrLuke Offline


Registered: 06/04/15
Posts: 437
Loc: Grinnell, IA
Here's a question for any of the mods with limnology chops: Does particulate content affect water's ability to hold diffused oxygen? If it does, is it specific to the particulate (clay vs silt vs etc)?

I am impressed by a fish that can still remove sufficient DO from the cloudy mess of water that is my pond this week.
_________________________
The man who asks a question is a fool for a minute. The man who does not ask, is a fool for life.
- Confucius
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#506266 - 05/21/19 05:04 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
Joey Quarry Offline


Registered: 11/04/17
Posts: 147
Loc: Wisconsin
Dr Luke, the complicated answer is the most common, "it depends". The simple answer is, Yes. Suspended solids absorb more heat from solar radiation than water molecules. The heat is then transferred to the water by "conduction". Warmer water cannot hold as much DO as cold water.
Also, high turbidity can inhibit photosynthesis, thus reducing DO output by plants.
How much? The answer is, "it depends".
_________________________
2.5 acres, 87' Deep, Previously a Quarry

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#506271 - 05/21/19 05:29 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
Matzilla Offline


Registered: 08/12/16
Posts: 401
Loc: Iowa
more solids = less DO per volume - physics, if you take a cubic foot of water, add in X amount of ____ material, you need to displace x amount of ____ material. As the amount of carried solids increases the amount of carried do has to decrease - that's my train of thought any how?
_________________________
Mat Peirce
1.25 acre southeast Iowa pond
LMB, BG, YP, WE, HSB, RES, BCP

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#506284 - 05/21/19 09:48 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
Custom 68 Offline


Registered: 05/09/14
Posts: 144
Loc: Springfield MO area
Well mine sure has the solids but we are clear of rain for a bit anyway. My aeration is on and I'm gonna leave it on. It will be slow to clear.
Thanks again for the support
Dave
_________________________
Thanks
Dave
1 acre pond.

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#506292 - 05/21/19 10:53 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
wannapond0001 Offline


Registered: 12/11/18
Posts: 184
Loc: Ohio
My water hasn't been clear for weeks. It helped a great deal when the GBH was visiting. I think it's a plus.

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#506293 - 05/21/19 10:54 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Matzilla]
Joey Quarry Offline


Registered: 11/04/17
Posts: 147
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Matzilla
more solids = less DO per volume - physics, if you take a cubic foot of water, add in X amount of ____ material, you need to displace x amount of ____ material. As the amount of carried solids increases the amount of carried do has to decrease - that's my train of thought any how?


No offense but this is not a closed system where if you add X you displace Y. There is still the same amount of water in the pond.
_________________________
2.5 acres, 87' Deep, Previously a Quarry

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#506313 - 05/22/19 01:35 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
Matzilla Offline


Registered: 08/12/16
Posts: 401
Loc: Iowa
Joey, it kinda is - think about it

Normally you have water containing DO in your pond...add an object to displace that volume (like a dead fall tree) and water spills over (stand pipe, overflow, spillway etc.) In this case the added volume comes in the form of suspended solids. Less water per volume = less DO carrying capacity.
_________________________
Mat Peirce
1.25 acre southeast Iowa pond
LMB, BG, YP, WE, HSB, RES, BCP

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#506318 - 05/22/19 03:04 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
DrLuke Offline


Registered: 06/04/15
Posts: 437
Loc: Grinnell, IA
I often learn things here on the forum when posing rhetorical questions, which is why I do it. But I am not wanting to heat up any sort of disagreement.
I do have some understanding (and admiration) for the good ol' water molecule. Pretty cool they way it's density changes with temperature, and how it's molecular structure gets 'bigger' or 'fluffier' when it forms a sold (crystalline) structure.
I hadn't pondered the effect of particulates on radiant heat absorption as Joey points out, and I think it's an important point.
From the particulate point of view, I'm thinking the 'it depends' part pivots on whether things that run in our ponds dissolve (i.e. slip in the molecular space between the water molecules and become part of the solution) or suspend (float around between the water molecules, but not in their molecular space). And I have ignored the effect of pH and hardness, etc, etc. I know just enough to be dangerous. :-) So dissolved = golf balls wedged between basketballs; suspended = beach balls added to a bunch of basketballs
So I suppose my question (refined) is if dissolved particulates would affect the water's ability to hold oxygen (i.e. compete for space between the molecules)?
_________________________
The man who asks a question is a fool for a minute. The man who does not ask, is a fool for life.
- Confucius
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#506319 - 05/22/19 03:56 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19954
Loc: Miss.
Water Quality is a very complex subject. Dr. Claud Boyd is an expert and writes for PB .
consider getting this book.









Chapter

3. Physiochemical Characteristics of Ponds (Claude E. Boyd and Christopher A. Boyd)

Claud Boyd is the preeminent professor on pond/lake water , soil, etc.


See this from SRAC

https://srac.tamu.edu/serveFactSheet/108

SRAC Publication No. 460

Control of Clay Turbidity in Ponds

The effect of clay turbidity
on dissolved oxygen
The dissolved oxygen in sportfish
or farm ponds normally fluctuates
widely during the summer.
During the day, plant photosynthesis
increases the oxygen concentration;
during the night, plant
and fish respiration reduces the
oxygen concentration in the water.
Clay turbidity reduces the magnitude
of daily fluctuations in dissolved
oxygen concentration, so
that it gets neither very high nor
very low. However, muddy water
tends to have a lower average
concentration of dissolved oxygen
than water with a green phytoplankton
bloom. Clay turbidity
can sometimes develop quite suddenly,
as when heavy storm
runoff enters the pond or high
winds churn the water and cause bottom soils to be resuspended. In
such cases, oxygen may decline to
critically low levels and make it
necessary to aerate the pond


Edited by ewest (05/22/19 03:58 PM)
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#506325 - 05/22/19 04:45 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: ewest]
DrLuke Offline


Registered: 06/04/15
Posts: 437
Loc: Grinnell, IA
Originally Posted By: ewest
Water Quality is a very complex subject. Dr. Claud Boyd is an expert and writes for PB .
consider getting this book.


I see Dr Willis was an editor! Good stuff! Thanks for the tip, Ewest!

And from the section you highlighted, it seems running aeration is about the best (and only) thing to do that is helpful.
_________________________
The man who asks a question is a fool for a minute. The man who does not ask, is a fool for life.
- Confucius
--------------

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#506332 - 05/22/19 07:09 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Matzilla]
Joey Quarry Offline


Registered: 11/04/17
Posts: 147
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Matzilla
Joey, it kinda is - think about it

Normally you have water containing DO in your pond...add an object to displace that volume (like a dead fall tree) and water spills over (stand pipe, overflow, spillway etc.) In this case the added volume comes in the form of suspended solids. Less water per volume = less DO carrying capacity.


DO is usually measured as PPM (Parts Per Million) or milligrams per liter (mg/L). In your example, the tree has displaced water from the pond, however, the DO in PPM or mg/L of the water still in the pond remains the same.
_________________________
2.5 acres, 87' Deep, Previously a Quarry

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#506336 - 05/22/19 09:37 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5882
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Right or wrong, I think of it this way....take a 2 cup container and fill it to the top with clear water. Assume the water is saturated with DO. The TOTAL DO in the container has value X. Now add 1 cup of mud. The container overflows and now the container has 1 cup of mud and 1 cup of water. The Total DO in the container is 0.5X unless the mud contains DO. The fish pull whatever the mix is thru their gills to breathe. Assuming the flow of mix thru their gills is a fixed value Y, then the mix being pulled thru their gills has less DO when mixed with mud.

To me, perhaps a better question is what is the impact on a fish's ability to exchange DO thru their gills when the water is full of mud? If I put a man in a room full of suspended dust, he has a hard time breathing.


Edited by Bill D. (05/22/19 09:54 PM)
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You'll never know what ya can catch unless you wet a line!

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#506339 - 05/22/19 10:57 PM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Bill D.]
Joey Quarry Offline


Registered: 11/04/17
Posts: 147
Loc: Wisconsin
Yes, Bill, if you throw away half of something, you are left with one half. However, the half that is left, is still the same.
_________________________
2.5 acres, 87' Deep, Previously a Quarry

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#506353 - 05/23/19 07:35 AM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5882
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Absolutely correct Joey. However, in the example I gave I threw half of the water away and REPLACED IT with mud. The total volume stayed the same. For discussion purposes, say a fish pulls 1 GPM of fluid across its gills. Assuming mud does not contain DO, then a gallon of "pure" water has twice the TOTAL DO than that contained in a gallon of a mixture of half water and half suspended mud. Only 1/2 the gallon contains DO (water) so the fish's gills are exposed to half as much DO as a gallon of fluid is pulled across the gills even though the water that is in the mix has the same DO level as the original water.

Clear as mud!
_________________________

You'll never know what ya can catch unless you wet a line!

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#506354 - 05/23/19 08:16 AM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
wannapond0001 Offline


Registered: 12/11/18
Posts: 184
Loc: Ohio
Or you guys could stop worrying about the things you can't do much about. Relax. My water clarity is like 2 inches. My fish are still alive. I don't lose sleep over muddy colored water. The GBH will not get it's meal.

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#506358 - 05/23/19 09:21 AM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
Custom 68 Offline


Registered: 05/09/14
Posts: 144
Loc: Springfield MO area
Ha thanks guys lots of good discussion here. It was windy yesterday and I had the aeration running so no floaters however it sure looks ugly right now. We did have some more rain last night but nothing like the last couple days.
It also seems if it has to do with ponds somebody has researched it and some one on this site has already experienced it so it is a helpful resource for sure.
I did see some recent LMB fry at the very top of the water (only way I can see them now) not sure what they can eat but right now I am doing what I can. It will settle out and we will be wanting the rain in a couple months.
Thanks again all for the thoughts and education. It is always good to come on here and get another perspective.
Dave
_________________________
Thanks
Dave
1 acre pond.

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#506372 - 05/23/19 11:53 AM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19954
Loc: Miss.
Guys it is more complex than that. With many variables at work it is hard to guess outcomes.

For example. A 1 acre pond with fish. In 18 mths you reach fish carrying capacity. If you then displace half the water with mud you have half the total DO. If the DO was at 6 with that level of O2 demand and total DO demand stays constant and supply drops in half - you likely have a serious problem.

In addition water is a very good solvent and will pick up lots of stuff if it is inundated with soil.

In short rapid changes in water quality can add stress to the fish. Or if the change is positive (good new water) it can reduce problems.

Fish generally do not like high rates of soil suspension. They can live if the DO is enough. Some species do better than others. Sight feeders can have feeding issues with muddy water for long periods.
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#506416 - 05/24/19 07:54 AM Re: Lots of rain now a muddy pond what do I do? [Re: Custom 68]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 14026
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
That book is worth having. Has chapters by Lusk, Otto and other experts in their fields.
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It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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