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#503378 03/21/19 08:35 AM
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Well time has finally come to get some fish in my pond and I'm wanting to try something a little different. A little background on the pond and my goals, it is a 3 acre pond, 2 years old, with a deep end about 16ft and average depth around 8ft. No fish have been stocked except fathead minnows. What I want this to be is a place that has consistent action when fishing and can provide fish for eating on a regular basis.

Now, for fish I am looking at RES, HBG (the speckelbelly sunfish from J.M. Malone with no GSF genes), HBC, and HSB. My thinking is that the reproduction of all of these fish would be limited enough that everything would hopefully stay in balance fairly well, especially with removal of fish for eating. If anything gets too far out of hand down the line I might try and add some WE. I figure that this plan will require some supplemental stocking through the years and I foresee a growout pond in my future.

For initial stocking numbers I am looking at 400-RES, 1600-HBG, 400-HBC, and 180-HSB. Should I adjust any of these numbers? Do you think I will be making a mistake if I stock the fingerling HSB at the same time as my other fish?

I am open to suggestions. I am somewhat limited on which species I have access to and am allowed to stock but I'm sure there are other viable and perhaps better stocking plans with the available fish. So lets hear it, what would you guys suggest?

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It sounds like an exciting plan. A few questions that will help those with pond stocking experience to chime in...

Do you have spawning structure in your pond for the FHM's?

Will you be feeding pellets?

What kinds of YOY cover do you currently have?


Fish on!,
Noel
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The only structure in my pond currently is about 4 pallets that I sank when I put the minnows in 2 years ago. I attached solo cups to the bottoms, thinking that would create little caves for the FHM to build their nests in. I was worried they would come loose and float up but in almost 2 years I haven't seen a single floating cup.

I plan to feed pellets but I don't have a huge budget to spend on fish food so probably not 20lbs a day or anything crazy like that. Seems like the HBG and HSB will benefit a lot from feeding though so I will definitely feed what I can.

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I am going out on limb here and suggesting that more pallets should be installed for your size of a pond. I say this because you have not mentioned (with extra surprise and delight) that you have gobs and gobs of FHM's in the pond currently. If you do, then ignore me, but if you don't...their reproduction has been less than what's possible. My 18 or so pallets in my 1/4 acre pond helped produce so may FHM's that I was worried that I would have a DO crash, maybe worried without actual need, but I was worried just the same. They were everywhere!

With that said, my stocking 40 HSB and 600 panfish (HBG and RES) had so many FHM's to eat that I did not have to feed more than 1/3 pound of pellets per day. The game fish were stocked one year after the FHM's. My HSB went from 4-6" long to 13" long in one summer. I expect the pellet bill to go up this year as the minnows have been knocked way down in numbers.

While you waiting for more experienced advice on stocking numbers...I think that your HBG numbers are a low and your combined HSB and HBC are a bit high. But, most of my reading has been done to establish a pond that hopefully generates larger HBG rather than bass or cats. If reproduction of your hybrids is low across the selection, you will need to feed pellets at a higher rate because you do not have much for forage production. I think you should at least double (maybe triple) the HBG number and mabye cut the HSB and HBC numbers back by 15%. That's my very NON-Experienced advice. I have thrown it out there to get the attention of others with more expertise who will correct my thinking if need be.

As far as stocking sizes are concerned...The HSB should grow rather quick and keep ahead of the others, but if you do not get your forage up initially or adjust your original stocking numbers you could put in the RES and HBG this year with hopes that they reproduce some to help with forage (YOY) and then put in the predators next year. For example, 2 to 4" Res and HBG this year and 4-6" HSB and HBC next year. The panfish will reproduce some this year and provide more breeders for next year when the predators go in.

Sorry to ramble on, but I tend to offer my 2 cents even if it's not worth one.


Fish on!,
Noel
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I agree 100% that I need to add more structure. I know there are a lot of FHM in the pond but it is hard to tell if I have had a lot of reproduction because my water has a lot of suspended clay. Within the next week or two we are planning to do an Alum/hydrated lime treatment and as soon as everything is stabilized try and get fish in the pond.

On the topic of forage and YOY available for the predators, do you think I should consider some non-hybrid bluegill as well? I was concerned that the HSB might not be able to keep them in check and I wasn't planning to add LMB. Also, should I consider GSH? I have read where they can get larger and I didn't want to end up with a bunch of biomass in un-eatable shiners.

This is my first time doing any of this stuff so I'll take as many 2 cents as you have to offer. Thanks.

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First off, I am assuming that your variety of J.M. Malone HBG reproduce in a similar fashion as the common GSF/BG hybrid. My hopes are that my HSB can keep my HBG in check, so you are traveling down the same path as I am. Not to mention, your cats will help also. Upping your stocking numbers of the HBG will help feed the HSB and HBC. I would rather you rely on an experts opinion as to what those numbers should be. I am expecting to feed pellets to my hybrids to keep them fat and happy, but only to the extent that the HSB keep the HBG recruitment to a minimum. I would bet that if you Do Not plan to feed twice daily and all they could eat in 15 minutes that your fish may lack in forage to sustain good growth. Keep in mind that I have no knowledge of the reproduction possibilities with respect to HBC. It just seems like your mostly hybrid plan would be better suited for a pellet fed pond. If you where looking to grow larger cats and HSB and were not so concerned with the size of the panfish, then regular BG could be a good solution for forage. If that were the case you could likely bump your predator numbers up quite a bit. This way the BG would feed the predators and the higher number of predators would help keep the prolific BG populations in check. At some point, as the predators grow big, you might even have to add cover for the gills to hide out in a grow to a larger meal size.

I can't comment on minnow varieties other than the FHM as that's all that exists in my little 1/4 acre world.

I look forward to others advice, as I am merely regurgitating some of what I have "learned" here on PB.


Fish on!,
Noel
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It took me a second to figure out what you were talking about with "cats" but I'm assuming you are referencing the HBC? I may have got the acronym wrong but what I was referencing was Hybrid Black Crappie.

I like the idea of a pond that can sustain itself, at least somewhat, and that's why I am still considering non-hybrid bluegill. What I fear is that with HSB and Hybrid Crappie being my predators, will the limited gape of those species cause an overpopulation of stunted BG due to their odd shape. Any opinions from anyone with experience on if HSB and HBC can keep a BG population from stunting?

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HCP=HBCP=Hybrid Crappie


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Originally Posted By: Kartracer00
Well time has finally come to get some fish in my pond and I'm wanting to try something a little different. A little background on the pond and my goals, it is a 3 acre pond, 2 years old, with a deep end about 16ft and average depth around 8ft. No fish have been stocked except fathead minnows. What I want this to be is a place that has consistent action when fishing and can provide fish for eating on a regular basis.



Kartracer, congrats on your new 3 acre pond. Given the size of your pond, I think it would provide all the fish you would want to eat on annual basis under a variety of management plans ... so I don't think you are limited to one or another to achieve both good fishing and harvest.

My dad and I used to fish for HSB in Oklahoma using BG. It amazed me how large a BG a 3 lb HSB would strike (Some much larger than I thought would fit the gape ... > 6"). Even so, the HSB is new arrival and has never filled the role of apex predator in native waters. Were I doing this, I think I would limit the laterally compressed prey to hybrids but I might give more consideration to BG-GSF hybrids which themselves have sufficient gape at 8" to easily consume 1.5" offspring.

Your particular goals do not seem to be concerned with the size of fish provided they are in good quantity and big enough to eat. If this is really true you might give more consideration to using LMB as a predator. The reason I say this is that LMB in combination with BG is a predictable combination. Given sufficient time, LMB will overpopulate in most ponds. Under this scenario, BOWs consistently produce respectable quantities of eating size BG by the end of their (the BG's) second summer and harvestable LMB by the end of their second or third summer. Provided you harvest what the BOW can produce annually, the RWs of both LMB and BG will be good. In a BOW of 3 acres, the potential production would however vastly exceed what you probably want to eat.


Last edited by jpsdad; 03/23/19 08:56 AM.

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Volume of fish produced is variable depending on water productivity. How much fish do you anticipate eating and how is your water productivity ?
















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My water is not currently very productive. I have very low visibility due to suspended clay. The plan is to do an Alum treatment within the next two weeks or so - before adding the fish. After (hopefully) clearing the pond I am uncertain of how fertile my pond will be. Time will tell I suppose.

As to the LMB and BG option, I have considered it and it obviously has merit as that is what essentially every private pond near me has stocked. As far as eating, I am not particularly fond of LMB. I would like to try something a little different but I understand that may come with complications. As for how much fish I would like to harvest, I would guess probably 25-30 lbs a year would be enough. That's why I'm posting here before ordering anything, to see if others can guide me in a better direction or confirm my idea is possible. Thanks for the responses!

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Kartracer,

I like HSB better than LMB for eating too.

With 3 acres you can easily harvest 30 lbs a year (10 lbs/acre) in even the least fertile water. In fact, there is no reason nor any incentive to feed the fish you plan to grow. Fish will grow just as fast in an infertile pond as in a very fertile one .... provided .... the number of mouths to feed is appropriate for the fertility.

I've worked up spreadsheet scenarios in the past for the combination you're considering. If you like I will post it in this thread and it will give you an idea of a possible stocking plan. You can play with SS by changing numbers.

As I see it your main challenge is on the predator side. It is very important that you have sufficient numbers of them to inhibit reproduction of the HBG so that growth remains good. Because they won't reproduce, they must remain in sufficient number and size to keep growth of the HBG on track.

A second challenge is that the F1 HBG will typically be superior to their offspring. And so it is desirable to have an annual stocking of the F1 HBG to serve as "recruitment". Now here's the rub. There's no guarantee that fingerlings will survive in the presence of mature HSB predators.

This particular stocking group has great potential but it isn't without challenges without sources to advanced fingerlings.

Something I have considered, but have no practical experience with is a HSB/minnow combination. The GSH might seem to be a good choice but I would personally avoid them with this combination. What one would want is a highly prolific minnow that never gets too large for the HSB that will be harvested. Fatheads may work but you will need to provide habitat for them or possibly protect a breeding population behind a netted enclosure that would keep HSB out but allow the Fatheads (or offspring) to get out. If your pond drains into to waters harboring red shiner, they may be a very good choice as they do not need to defend their eggs and breed from April to September. Gambusia, also native to Arkansas may also be a good choice. If you limit the HSB sufficiently and harvest annually then it seems wholly plausible that the minnows could be self sustaining.

The challenge with this scenario is how do you keep other fish (like LMB, BH, and GSH) from invading your pond? Once there, the food chain would change to the detriment of the HSB.

I attached a SS with HSB stocked at 17 fish per acre (51 annually). I assumed the HSB would grow .75 lbs annually ... which may not be correct. They could grow faster or slower in which case the stocking rate and harvest could be adjusted. This scenario seeks a maximum biomass of HSB at 40 lb/acre and for HSB to reach the harvest size of 14" by end of their second year. Harvest is important to success. Once they reach 14" they should be harvested in order to improve survival of the "recruitment stockings" and to improve the growth of the younger year classes. If insufficiently harvested, they would overcome the food chain and eradicate the minnows. You will notice the scenario has the potential to produce 3 times your desired harvest. This should cover some mortality and possibly poaching, but in a self sustaining production system the harvest is absolutely necessary to keep production up. It would be like having a new pond perpetually. Because the HSB cannot reproduce and are harvested, they cannot overrun the food supply. Because the HSB don't overrun the food supply, enough minnows survive to maintain a population of them.

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HSBwMinnow.xlsx (10.18 KB, 157 downloads)
Last edited by jpsdad; 03/25/19 09:26 PM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Here are the stocking numbers I have in mind. Does anyone see an obvious flaw in the numbers? I plan to ladder stock some more HSB as they get harvested. May have to add more HBG as well over time. I considered BG but thought I would start without them as its a lot easier to add them later than to try and get them out. May also do summer tilapia down the line to add to the summer forage.

400 RES (3-4")
1600 HBG - Speklebelly (400-1" 1200-5")
300 HBCP (3")
40 HSB (3-4")

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I don't have much of a grip on stocking plans, but I put 40 HSB in my 1/4 acre pond per some consensus here at PB. My goals were bigger HBG. 40 in a 3 acre pond seems very light to me. Maybe the HBCP will make up the difference in panfish control?


Fish on!,
Noel
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I was worried that the 40 was a small number myself. I would be willing to reduce the HBCP slightly to be able to support more HSB. I do plan to feed some so I may be able to support more predators than I was initially thinking. I'm just making these numbers up as I go based on different things I've read so I welcome all opinions.

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I developed the stocking of my 1/4 acre pond with the idea of making it a Big Bluegill Fishery. The HSB are the population control for the HBG, supposed to simulate an overpopulated and stunted LMB population. I ended up stocking 500 (2-4") HBG, 40 (4-6") HSB, and 90 (2-4") RES. I feed pellets and have plenty of aeration. I am going on my second summer with gamefish in the pond.

The above is what I am basing the thought that your HSB number seems low. If you are wanting a HSB fishery and your hybrid panfish (HBCP and HBG) do not reproduce very much then I would think you would want more HSB. IF 40 HSB in my little pond will do a good job of keeping the HBG in check, I think you would want more HSB to keep your hybrid panfish populations under control. I hate to guess that HSB number as my pond has not proven itself, but I will guess a range that it should be increased to...120 to 400. LOL, I'm not much help am I?

Consider cutting out the 400-1" HBG. I am afraid that they would end up being food for the 3-4" HSB. My HSB grew much faster than my HBG and at 4-6" long would pound 1" long BG for snacks.


Fish on!,
Noel

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