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How many CFM can a single 5/8"i.d. weighted line handle without creating substantial back pressure? How many extra PSI would I create if I run ~9-10 CFM through that line? Anyone got any ideas?


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For that plan, I think psi increase will basically depend on the length of the hose. I have put 5 cfm (open flow) through 5/8"ID for 300ft and measured 0 back pressure. Length longer than that psi starts to increase.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/21/19 08:04 PM. Reason: corrected 10cfm to 5cfm

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Thanks for the insight Bill! 300' will be more than enough for what I want to do.


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Without doing some hair pulling calculations, putting 10 cfm through a 5/8" line is no small job. There other variables that should not be overlooked as well.

If you think of it as, how fast does the air have to move to make this happen through 5/8"??? The answer is something like, over 50 mph!!!

Then ask what would slow it down? Everything... fittings, Tees, elbows, remember the ID of a 5/8" fitting is probably only 1/2".

Not sure how many heads you are going to run, but 5/8" sounds small for the amount of flow you are talking about. If you consider that going only 50% bigger in diameter would reduce the speed of the flow by half. Even going to 3/4" hose would be a big improvement, efficiency wise.

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Using the generic calculator that probably assumes a lot of details like inlet/outlet temp, pipe material/construction, humidity,etc...

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pressure-drop-compressed-air-pipes-d_852.html

At 10 CFM, 5/8 ID tubing, 300 foot of tubing, and 15 psi at the inlet...

The pressure drop would be about 9 psi. you would loose 9 psi due to the pipe (no els, tees, valves, kinks, etc in the line AND no water head - just laying out on the driveway)

You could go down as far as 11.6 psi inlet pressure and still achieve the 10 CFM, but that is still with the line laying in the driveway and the outlet pressure would be about zilch.

Don't forget to include the deepest depth at which a diffuser will live (1/2 psi per foot of water) and the back pressure that the diffuser itself creates (about 1-2 psi).

How deep will you be going and do you have a pump curve for your pump?

Journey makes a good point that the next size up tubing will be more efficient and may be necessary if you are dealing with a marginal pump for your application.


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QA - For Winter 2019 we are thinking about running 6 Vertex discs in one combined block. Like a quad only bigger! Focus all the air in one spot and try to hammer the biggest hole possible. Current line of thinking is we need some INTENSITY to get through the ice and heavy snow after storms. Haven't decided on depth yet. The 1HP Gast 1550 pump makes a lot of air but only 15 PSI max.

Also trying to run one single airline for Winter setup. Thinking the PVC manifold with the turns and restrictions is a big part of our condensation issue. Run one straight line directly to this "6 pack". I guess I could just continue 1" line all the way to it. Just need to sink the line somehow.

Here is the pump curve.



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Journeyman makes good sense about features that slow and restrict flow. My test was using new 300ft smooth wall tubing coiled with 5cfm. Hooked it to a soft hose on the manifold on the pump which had an air gauge. I suggest you run 3/4"ID from the pump to the water line. Then connect to 5/8" weighted tubing. A 3/4hp compressor will create 10cfm and a 1hp probably 15cfm. If you are pushing 10cfm then larger diameter of 3/4" is probably better.


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Running the same numbers (except tubing size) as I used earlier on the linked site yields only a 3.6 psi drop WHEN using 3/4" id tubing instead of the 5/8". Quite a bit of a difference.

Don't let me come across as an expert on this subject as I only dabble in Fluid Dynamics on occasion.

Given:

1725 motor RPM (60 hertz US electrical supply),

300 feet of 3/4" ID tubing,

The equivalent of 4 tees and 4 elbows somewhere in the system (my estimate of your manifold design which would be similar to another 30 feet of tubing gathered from here...

http://media.wattswater.com/orion-hp-frictionloss.pdf

),

10 CFM Air Flow,

And 15 PSI max psi at pump,

You will see a 4psi drop from the pump to the outlet (sitting on the driveway and no diffusers.

Put it in 6 feet of water and add the diffusers and you will loose another 5 psi for a total of 10 psi.

Using your pump curve...you would be producing 12 CFM.

I would say that you are onto something.

If you use a true 5/8" ID tube...you end up with 15 psi and you still end up with just over the 10 CFM you specified, but you have to consider all the "assumptions" in the online calculators that I have used. The effect of these assumption could be good for you, or bad.
I tend to be more conservative and assume it would be on the bad side. This 5/8" scenario seems risky to me and going through the "hair pulling calculations" that Journey mentioned is outside my patience limits. It's funny how engineering calculations, so often, end up on the cutting edge and true experience ends up being the deciding factor. To quote the experienced (Bill Cody)...

"3/4" is probably better" and I'll add "definitely better".

The only concern is IF you end up with too much flow that could damage the diffusers...You might have to add a seventh diffuser or a pressure relief valve so that you don't "pop" a membrane (or wear them out prematurely). I have an adjustable pressure relief valve in my system for when I just run one of the three diffusers during my winter months. It merely exhausts (wastes)some of the air to atmosphere so that the sole diffuser is not blowing up like a balloon. I adjust the relief valve and watch the pressure gage so that I acquire the pressure that correlates with the pump curve to get the CFM that the diffusers call for.


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Thanks everyone for the input!

One thing I failed to mention is I will be facing a de-rate for the pump at 10,000'. I have heard as low as 8% and as high as 30%. My 1HP motor spins 1760 RPMs so at 10 PSI I should be looking at 12CFM minus my de-rate. Like I said I COULD just use 1" black roll pipe all the way to the block of diffusers. It would just be more difficult to weigh down and then deal with it to raise diffusers for cleaning.

I have been told, off the record, the Vertex diffusers can take 2 CFM all day long. With my de-rate I'd be less than that with 6 discs. I would only do this in an attempt to maximize the "intensity" of the plume.


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Hey,wbuffetjr, this ongoing wintertime aeration situation must be super frustrating for you. Many of us are intensely following your trials, hoping for the day when your success yields brook trout that survive the winter.

It's dumping another round of snow this am. My Aussies are belly dragging in just what fell over night.

I may not be remembering correctly, but it seems that I've read that winter time aeration for keeping a hole open in the ice can be better achieved with larger bubbles rather than smaller? (opposite of summertime aeration) With that in mind, rather than using a typical diffuser in winter, I built a diffuser from 2" pvc, drilled with many 1/16" holes, and capped on the end. There is a violent boil above this setup, rather than the milder boil over the membrane type of diffuser.

Our ponds are radically different. Mine is only 1/4 acre and shallow; yours is nearly a lake. Just a thought for you.

On another topic, TJ and I hope to meet up for some Rio Grande cutthroat fishing high in your watershed this summer. We'll contact you when and if; maybe, if you are "home in the mountains", we can stop by.

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4Corners - It as been VERY frustrating. Every year I think we have it and each time Mother Nature has slaps me around. I do feel like we are inching closer and closer.

I have heard more than once that coarser bubbles cut ice better. I was thinking about possibly mixing in two stone diffusers into the 6 pack in an effort to have max water movement and ice cutting abilities. The PVC deal is a good idea!

It'd be very cool to meet you and TJ! Give me a holler!


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A membrane diffuser will operate between .5 and 5 cfm, so there are plenty of diffusers and CFM to operate well. For a more aggressive air bubble (larger diameter) to cut ice, use a 50 foot long, 3/4"ID bubble or soaker hose that is loosely coiled in about a 6-8 foot diameter when submerged in a 5-7 foot depth. This will help lower the friction-caused pressure increase, and will slightly increase cfm output. Also, with a soaker hose, you will not have the typical diffuser-air-hog issues, so no need any manifold at all or depth imbalance concerns.



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Not sure about the 'large bubbles' are better for ice info you suggest, but I can tell you my experience with vertex in cold weather.

The deep water diffusers are shut down for winter, and running only one Vertex dual unit in 6 feet of water. This winter in Wisconsin has been colder than usual with many days below zero and windchills of more than -50f. The open water averages close to 30 feet across seasonally, and narrows up to about 15 feet across for the brutally cold weeks. It reopens to 30 feet within days of getting above zero.

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How long are you running your pump per day?


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Originally Posted By: Journeyman
Not sure about the 'large bubbles' are better for ice info you suggest, but I can tell you my experience with vertex in cold weather.

The deep water diffusers are shut down for winter, and running only one Vertex dual unit in 6 feet of water. This winter in Wisconsin has been colder than usual with many days below zero and windchills of more than -50f. The open water averages close to 30 feet across seasonally, and narrows up to about 15 feet across for the brutally cold weeks. It reopens to 30 feet within days of getting above zero.


The larger bubbles do not move as much volume of water as fine bubbles, yet the larger bubbles (still small) rise faster and splash warmer bottom water, higher onto ice.....compare it some time if you get the chance...



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I'm running air nearly 24-7 year round, except when daytime high temps exceed mid 80s for more than a couple days. Then timer is set to go off 10am - 8pm.


The large air bubble trial is observed daily when compare what I see with my neighbors pond and mine. He has the same pump I have, in the same depth, but instead of Vertex, he made a hula-hoop in the line and drilled small holes. Large bubbles for sure.

His pond is in his front yard so I see it every time driving by. I pay attention cause I introduced him to the aeration thing.

The average opening in the ice at his house is about 10 feet across while mine is close to 30 feet. During the weeks of sub-zero temps we had this year, his nearly closes up at less than 5 feet while mine is closer to 15 feet across.

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Thanks, Journeyman, and thanks, Rainman, for your two what I believe to be complementary ideas from your observations. To me the two bubble sizes seem to be two useful tools, and neither mutually exclusive.

In moderate conditions such as journeyman has experienced this winter (only "moderate" compared to what wbuffet's pond experiences nearly every winter, of course), the greater volume of water moved by the membrane diffuser keeps as larger hole open.

On the other hand, the Colorado mountains get a few feet of snow in one storm, filling the open hole with snow when the solar aerator and maybe the wind driven pump are not working. The sub zero temps that follow the storm then set up that snow into ice. At this point it may help to have the more aggressive action created by the proportionately larger bubbles to cut through that ice (and snow) cap to reopen a hole.

What?! Another "it depends"?! Just a couple of thoughts, and possibly not worth 2 cents.

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Originally Posted By: Journeyman
I'm running air nearly 24-7 year round, except when daytime high temps exceed mid 80s for more than a couple days. Then timer is set to go off 10am - 8pm.


The large air bubble trial is observed daily when compare what I see with my neighbors pond and mine. He has the same pump I have, in the same depth, but instead of Vertex, he made a hula-hoop in the line and drilled small holes. Large bubbles for sure.

His pond is in his front yard so I see it every time driving by. I pay attention cause I introduced him to the aeration thing.

The average opening in the ice at his house is about 10 feet across while mine is close to 30 feet. During the weeks of sub-zero temps we had this year, his nearly closes up at less than 5 feet while mine is closer to 15 feet across.


If he drilled even 1/64 inch holes, that would create massive bubbles compared to what a soaker hose creates.....there also need to a cluster of the bubbles, such as that of a diffuser pod that become synergistic. I'm surprised a hand drilled "hula hoop" design could even keep any hole open



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Rainman could you post a link to one of the bubble hoses you would suggest?


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