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nehunter #473342 06/04/17 05:18 AM
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Never heard of a gill net pick.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
nehunter #501524 02/04/19 04:08 PM
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Just wanted to paste this link for archive purposes.

https://www.maisrc.umn.edu/carp-biocontrol

Of interest to me is this quote right here......

At the end of the season, lakes with bluegills had 11 times fewer carp offspring than those without bluegills.


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nehunter #501526 02/04/19 04:48 PM
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Wow - interesting...I suspect the highly piscivorous GSH would reflect similar management characteristics? Start stocking Corey!!!


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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nehunter #501543 02/04/19 08:34 PM
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I have plans of 1200 HBG this spring. I’m curious as to what people’s thoughts would be about how HBG consumption of carp eggs and larva compare to standard BG. My long term plan is to alternate stocking BG on even years and HBG on odd years to continue to put pressure on the carp.


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nehunter #501546 02/04/19 09:22 PM
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NEDOC, don't know, but always thought the HBG diet was similar to BG. Good question.


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nehunter #501555 02/05/19 12:08 AM
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HBG gape should allow them to continue feeding on yoy carp after the BG cannot...I think they’d be even more efficient predators than BG although far less fecund than BG.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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nehunter #501559 02/05/19 07:51 AM
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What's wrong with Carp? Mighty tasty. Send them my way.

teehjaeh57 #501562 02/05/19 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
HBG gape should allow them to continue feeding on yoy carp after the BG cannot...I think they’d be even more efficient predators than BG although far less fecund than BG.


TJ, my plan of attack is to attack the carp at every stage of life that I can. As you know, carp are hard to control for 3 major reasons 1) they reproduce at incredible rates 2) they grow so quickly that they soon outgrow the gape of predator fish and 3) they have an extremely long life expectancy. That coupled with the fact that they tend to impact plankton in a BOW, and in turn makes it so YOY have a low survival rate make it so they overtake a pond rather quickly. SO..... my plan is to use my grow out ponds to eliminate the dependence of plankton for YOY survival. Then I will stock grown out BG, HBG and RES to attack carp eggs and early larval stages. Those that make it past that stage will then be attacked by HSB. Those that make it past that stage will be attacked by LMB. For those few that make it to the first fall and reach nearly 6" in length, they will be attacked by my Tiger Muskie and Blue Cat. All my fish, other than TM will be feed trained and supplementally fed sporadically through the year. But I'd like to shut feed off during times when I believe carp young can be decimated most. I will also continue to trap net and seine adult carp out of the pond. With all that said, I highly doubt I'll be anywhere close to 100% effective as carp reproduction is just too overwhelming. But I do plan to have fun, learn a lot and drink beer in the process.


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nehunter #501568 02/05/19 09:42 AM
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What do you think the chances are this would work on grass carp!!!! They are technically in the minnow family. Need to get rid of some, but they are impossible to kill.

nehunter #501569 02/05/19 09:43 AM
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I think I will also add this image from this link that shows how quickly carp grow, which helps explain how they outgrow gape so quickly... Keep in mind this image is from southern Minnesota, so growth rate and spawn will need adjusted accordingly. With that being said, it appears to me as though nearly all carp fry would be outside the gape of predator fish by August or September of their first year.

https://www.wrc.umn.edu/sites/wrc.umn.edu/files/sorensen_keynote_wed_lab_carp_politics.pdf






Last edited by NEDOC; 02/05/19 09:48 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Spicelanebass
What do you think the chances are this would work on grass carp!!!! They are technically in the minnow family. Need to get rid of some, but they are impossible to kill.


Do your grass carp reproduce? I don't know much about them, but I don't know why the model I'm using wouldn't work. Essentially I've attempted to build a model that eliminates most reproduction. The fact that BG impact carp reproduction so drastically is new to me though.


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nehunter #501577 02/05/19 10:21 AM
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No sterile, but I know grass carp are very sensitive to toxins. Where would one get such a volume of Antimycin-A does anyone know??

nehunter #501578 02/05/19 10:58 AM
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It sounds like its sold under the name of Fintrol in its piscicide form. I'm guessing its a controlled substance and a permit/license would be needed.


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nehunter #501581 02/05/19 01:11 PM
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The neurotoxin commonly used in backpack sprayers to kill mosquitos is an effective carp poison at low doses. It can be a selective way to target carp and leave other fish untouched. This has been used in some scientific studies.

Unfortunately, there is some collateral damage to the other tiny critters on the food chain (insects in the water, tiny invertebrates, scuds, shrimp, may die even crayfish get bothered to some degree by the nerve irritant)

Bifenthrin is easily available but is not labeled for such use.

If one could be sure the carp would target a certain type of fish food pellet saturated with the formula or wad of vegetation that contained the toxin in a gelatin capsule it could be an effective way to target the carp only.

nehunter #501587 02/05/19 03:51 PM
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That’s interesting CC. I wonder if it could be as simple as soaking corn in Bifenthrin? Seems that is how they applied Antimycin A.


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nehunter #501599 02/05/19 09:07 PM
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I wonder if you could get carp feeding on homemade dough balls and periodically make the dough balls with bifenthrin or inject bifenthrin into the dough balls similar to how they make a jelly roll? Then for the next few feedings use 'straight' pure doughballs, then do a bifenthrin dough ball feeding, etc. If one could get small bifenthrin pills or granules insert a pill into each dough ball.


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nehunter #501601 02/05/19 09:28 PM
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Interesting... they have quarts of liquid Bifenthrin for $21.


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nehunter #501602 02/05/19 10:35 PM
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Most local coops or farm stores have quarts or gallons under different names (Talstar, Crossbow, etc) It is considered a low-impact insecticide in the pyrethrin family. The pyrethrins are natural neurotoxins from the Chrysanthemum flower. It jams open ion channels in the nerves so that they can't properly open and shut.

It is used in agriculture and residential areas both inside and outside for a broad spectrum of pests.

The trick is to be innovative on how to target the Carp's specific appetite or eating habits. If the collateral damage to the most sensitive tiny organisms in the pond is considered worth it, (meaning that this is part of an intentional sterilization of the pond and then the food chain will have time to restart on its own) then it is simple and effective to treat the entire BOW.

It is more toxic when applied at cold temperatures and more toxic to cold water preferring fish over warm water preferring fish. It is not affected by hardness or pH. The pyrethroids are used in fish farms to control insect parasites of fish.

I was searching for the study but could not come up with it. Someone in the biology world can probably search the literature for the toxicity concentration for various species using the common pyrethroid compounds and share that.

If a doughball saturated with compound could be taken in by a target carp it could be lethal. However the saturated nature of the corn or dough may bring with it a taste that makes it unlikely to be eaten. It would then have to be contained in a secondary substance inside the dough ball or perhaps in a gelatin capsule if the fish digestion could break down gelatin.




Last edited by canyoncreek; 02/05/19 10:43 PM.
nehunter #501603 02/05/19 10:42 PM
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Found this table showing that mammals and birds do not experience as much toxicity due to having an enzyme system to break down the active ingredient. Fish do not have this system.

The bifenthrin product is poorly soluable in water and settles quickly to the bottom and stays active in the sediment. This may also be a means to target bottom feeding fish vs others.

From wikipedia here is a table of toxic levels know has LD50 or lethal dose for 50% of the test subjects:

Table of LD50 values

Female rats 54 mg/kg
Male rats 70 mg/kg
Mice 43 mg/kg
Mallard ducks 1280 ppm
Bobwhite quail 4450 ppm
Honey bees 17mg/l
Rainbow trout 0.00015 mg/l
Bluegill 0.00035 mg/l
Daphnia 0.0016 mg/l

nehunter #501604 02/05/19 10:48 PM
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Interesting article using it on a small body of water to help control crayfish.

Pyrethroids for crayfish control

Bill Cody #501607 02/06/19 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I wonder if you could get carp feeding on homemade dough balls and periodically make the dough balls with bifenthrin or inject bifenthrin into the dough balls similar to how they make a jelly roll? Then for the next few feedings use 'straight' pure doughballs, then do a bifenthrin dough ball feeding, etc. If one could get small bifenthrin pills or granules insert a pill into each dough ball.


This could be brilliance...


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Originally Posted By: Spicelanebass
What do you think the chances are this would work on grass carp!!!! They are technically in the minnow family. Need to get rid of some, but they are impossible to kill.

Electrofishing kills grass carp 90% rate..
When amperage is properly set for all other species, we see a huge wake and a trail of blood behind Amurs.. it's impressive!

nehunter #501619 02/06/19 10:07 AM
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They make empty pill capsules in various sizes.
https://capsuline.com/pages/empty-capsule-size-chart

If serious and adventurous make some pills loaded with your substance. Insert one into a dough ball. Capture a wild small carp and put it in an aquarium. Get it feeding on your dough ball recipe. Insert one of your 'pills' into a doughball and see if your carp will eat it. What may happen is the carp will suck up the doughball and before swallowing it, mush up the doughball, eject the pill capsule, and keep the goodies. Inquiring minds want to know.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/06/19 10:08 AM.

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Bill Cody #501620 02/06/19 10:21 AM
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I've got the perfect cage to put a dozen or so carp in. Small enough mesh that I can throw corn in and it won't slip through the bottom. If I can get carp feeding on corn soaked in flavored gelatin, I'm thinking I may slowly work my way toward soaking the corn in some Bifenthrin and toss it in and observe the response. Simple enough little experiment. Like stated above, it may possibly create a taste that keeps carp away though. But certainly affordable enough to try.


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nehunter #501622 02/06/19 11:06 AM
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NEDOC,
work on a few angles. First if you want to do the gelatin capsule idea in a doughball then there are small quantities you can order on ebay, and the thickness of the capsule wall plays a big role in how fast it breaks down once it is wet. You can also speed up capsule dissolution by filling the 2 capsule halves, then putting them together, then using a needle to put a hole (experiment with size) on each end of the capsule. The idea would be to keep most of the active ingredient in the capsule for long enough for the doughball to be eaten, but also at the same time get some of the moisture from the environment outside of inside the fish to get on the inside of the gel capsule to help dissolve the capsule from the inside and the outside.

The other thing that may affect toxicity is whether the poison can work from the inside of the fish through GI absorption, or if the surface effect on the gill is the more rapid/deadly mechanism. There are clear effects once the stuff hits the blood on the internal organs and on the red blood cells. But there also is a direct blocking of oxygen uptake right at the gill level. This would of course require the toxin to be evenly distributed in the water of the tank. That would not be our goal for your test purposes.

The 'loaded corn' would work as a delivery tool, I'm just not sure if the loaded corn would float and other fish would target it, or if it would sink rapidly and only the carp would target it?

Also, if you have access, the other variants in the same family may have more potency at lower doses. I know there has been some study with malathion, permethrin and the newer synthetic types of pyrethroids.

We have a local irrigation supply house that supports fertilizer, lawn care and underground sprinkling companies and they sell gallons of the stuff for quite cheap.

Cold water makes the stuff work better so consider that when comparing a indoor warm water dose vs current outdoor cold temperature pond water.

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