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#500559 - 01/11/19 06:47 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
DrLuke Offline


Registered: 06/04/15
Posts: 377
Loc: Grinnell, IA
Originally Posted By: MNFISH2
Originally Posted By: DrLuke
So awesome! I can imagine it would be tough to quantify the DO rise for the whole body of water, but could you tell any 'practical' impact on fish survival? Or did you get any formal data (net or seine survey, shock survey, et al) on fish number and class sizes?

This may be proprietary info, so if so, just ignore me. Thanks for sharing what you have!


We did quite a bit of DO testing along with the mechanical iterations. And as you might expect, it was difficult to eliminate variables to produce solid test data. We did, however, discover how important open water is to aerating a highly Eutrophic pond. The compressor pushing the bubbles does very little as compared to the ambient air to water interface.


I think that is such an important point, that I personally almost forget. The oxygen diffusion into the water occurs AT THE SURFACE. I'll generalize but say, we all love seeing the 'boil' of the aerator, but it's not the bottom or bubble column where the magic is happening.

Do you feel like it improved over winter survivability, in any way that you could tell or measure?
_________________________
"You get what you earn." - Terry Brands, state champ, National champ, Olympic silver medalist in wrestling
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#500561 - 01/11/19 07:30 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 96
Loc: MINNESOTA
Ok DrLuke...This is where I think it starts to get good. Again, these are my experiences and would need to be validated by others....

1. We were able to drive the DO up at a rate not seen by any intermittent bottom diffuser system (under ice covered waters). This is point one and not too shocking when you really understand how O2 is absorbed into the water column. The forced air inside the hatch is a significant amount of O2 over a 3-4hr run time. We figured the 4 square feet, with the forced air and the water movement from below inside the hatch, would be equivalent to a 20' diameter hole of open water.

2. How we used the hatch to deliver air and Cleated Copper into the water column. We were able to slow the BOD. Significantly enough to get a 3 ppm gain in 300,000 gallons of water in less than 8hrs (the series of tests we performed in stained water at night, eliminating photosynthesis O2 production and a YSI Optical DO meter was used).

I know what the experts are going to say and they are right, I don't have enough scientific data to support these statements. But here is what I think is happening...

Intermittent aeration (less than 6hrs/day run time) under the ice, in Eutropic waters, the bacteria on the pond bottom are getting enough O2 to reproduce and actually flourish. By mid to late winter they are consuming most of the O2 and no matter how much is replaced, with a 6hr run time, the bacteria multiply at a rate that makes the O2 gain zero to negative. Once the ice comes off, very large quantities of O2 diffuse into the water column, UV light penetrates the bottom and the DO jumps

Beneficial bacteria,a Eutropic ice covered pond, with intermittent aeration....not good for the fish population, IME (in fact we killed 2 test ponds last year with it)!


Edited by MNFISH2 (01/11/19 07:35 PM)

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#500562 - 01/11/19 07:48 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: Bill D.]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 96
Loc: MINNESOTA
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Very cool! So is the whole rig sitting on kind of a miniature floating "dock" so it follows the water/ice level?


This one is built on a "dock". Posts run from the platform to the bottom. I think a floating setup would be pretty cool to try

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#500566 - 01/12/19 09:42 AM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
DrLuke Offline


Registered: 06/04/15
Posts: 377
Loc: Grinnell, IA
Wow! I realize I need to be careful regarding final conclusions from your research, but the hypothesis/testing/theory aspect of what you've done is extremely interesting. And it highlights one of the aspects of my personal pond management that I find the most challenging: attempting to measurably modify a biological system. I've always over simplified (i.e. low DO = dead fish, higher DO = live fish, ergo aeration = always good for fish). But in a BOW, with a full spectrum of life competing for the resources, changing one or two aspects/resources very often does not have the impact I expect (or really, hope for).
Don't get me wrong, I am not discouraged by this, just chastened a bit. There is solid data that supports the benefit of 'macroscopic changes' to our ponds (like structure, water depth, et al). I seems there is lots to learn about how to effectively impact the microscopic side.

Really, really good stuff MNFISH! Thanks for sharing your work with us!
_________________________
"You get what you earn." - Terry Brands, state champ, National champ, Olympic silver medalist in wrestling
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#500577 - 01/12/19 01:52 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
DrWizz Offline


Registered: 06/26/13
Posts: 20
Loc: Eastern Iowa
I agree with you DrLuke, the sort of thing MNFISH2 is doing is fascinating to think about. There was a post last month about infusing dissolved oxygen into the column of a bottom diffuser that I found interesting that would seem to be applicable to this system as well, particularly if there is ice on the pond and the partial pressure of O2 can be increased between the ice and water surface. I have wondered if these systems of oxygenation/aeration could be tested in a standard swimming pool that is frozen. This would largely eliminate the biological variables when measuring DO at various depths. Obviously the information would not be directly applicable to a pond, but it might help to understand what is a reasonable expectation in a biological setting. As alluded to in the post from last month, could it be that DO can be increased in the water by pumping O2 under the ice and not letting it escape through a hole cut in the ice?

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#500592 - 01/12/19 08:31 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
wbuffetjr Online   content


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 933
Loc: in the mountains
MNFISH

What do you think would happen to a floating unit once the ice began to form? Could ice get a hold of it and tear it up? I guess it would have to do with how it is built.
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#500595 - 01/13/19 12:29 AM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: wbuffetjr]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 96
Loc: MINNESOTA
Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
MNFISH

What do you think would happen to a floating unit once the ice began to form? Could ice get a hold of it and tear it up? I guess it would have to do with how it is built.


I only built systems that were proof of concept and affixed to the pond bottom. So I can't honestly answer that. There would be more development work on the blower system as well. At your pond, what would be the coldest day of the winter (ballpark)? What is the thickest your ice gets in a winter? (again ballpark)

This brings up another concept that we were not able to completely test but wanted to explore more. With remote location ponds, big bodies of water, that were highly Eutropic, was there a way to create "O2 safe zones" for the fish. To sustain an entire larger pond above lower lethal would be very very expensive with direct solar drive units.


Edited by MNFISH2 (01/13/19 12:30 AM)

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#500597 - 01/13/19 09:30 AM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
wbuffetjr Online   content


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 933
Loc: in the mountains
Last year when my buddy went up he estimated the ice to be 18"-24" thick. Coldest day so far this year has only been in the single digits. Last year I saw negative single digits a handful of times.
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#500624 - 01/13/19 08:38 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
woodster Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 118
Loc: Wi
Great experiment. I once had a solar aerator stop after days of no sun. Then on the first sunny day I checked on it and saw my buoy was still frozen in. I thought the aerator was down but when I got closer I could here it was running. There was dome of ice holding my buoy up and a 30 foot circle of air under it! I was surprised by this to say the least. I grabbed my ice drill to see if there was air pressure under the ice which there was! The odds of this were slim as one crack in the ice would release the air, then water, and it would open up an area. As I stared at the dome I realized several benefits of what was happening. First the safety of having solid ice over it. Secondly I was thinking about how open water becomes super cooled when aerating in the winter. I have noticed the fish avoid the area and stay in warmer water near the bottom. The dome was insulating the aeration area.

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#500626 - 01/13/19 08:46 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
woodster Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 118
Loc: Wi
There was one drawback I thought of when I had the dome of ice, that was that gases could not escape. Assuming that your prototype is not air tight this should not be an issue. Anyway keep us posted. If there would be a way to aerate without open water in the winter I would be behind it 100%

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#501230 - 01/26/19 08:42 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
tr889 Offline


Registered: 03/05/18
Posts: 18
Loc: Michigan
What compressor did you use for this solar setup?

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#501241 - 01/27/19 01:54 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: tr889]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 96
Loc: MINNESOTA
Thomas Diaphram 1/10hp Pump. 1.4cfm freeflow

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#501242 - 01/27/19 01:58 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: woodster]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 96
Loc: MINNESOTA
Originally Posted By: woodster
Great experiment. I once had a solar aerator stop after days of no sun. Then on the first sunny day I checked on it and saw my buoy was still frozen in. I thought the aerator was down but when I got closer I could here it was running. There was dome of ice holding my buoy up and a 30 foot circle of air under it! I was surprised by this to say the least. I grabbed my ice drill to see if there was air pressure under the ice which there was! The odds of this were slim as one crack in the ice would release the air, then water, and it would open up an area. As I stared at the dome I realized several benefits of what was happening. First the safety of having solid ice over it. Secondly I was thinking about how open water becomes super cooled when aerating in the winter. I have noticed the fish avoid the area and stay in warmer water near the bottom. The dome was insulating the aeration area.



We did not come to the same conclusions. It is our belief the doom of ice is a real detriment to O2 transfer and added more unpredictability to thin ice locations and thus created more danger.

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