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#484224 - 12/17/17 07:03 PM DO Experiment Design Help
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 89
Loc: MINNESOTA
Good evening,

I am testing a new aeration system this winter here in MN and want to generate some meaningful data.

Experimentation will be done using small body of water (about 400,000 gallons). The pond has an average depth of 3', highly organic, and has a fish load. What I would like to do is limit the DO input to one source. Generating DO entirely from the aeration system being tested. No inputs from photosynthesis. I will measure DO in fixed spots throughout the winter. Turning the system on and off throughout the winter.

My thinking is to add black pond dye into the water until it becomes so dark, DO generated from photosynthesis stops. At what secchi disk reading could I assume this happening?

Thanks!

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#484230 - 12/17/17 10:52 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 894
Loc: in the mountains
This will be cool!
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#484231 - 12/17/17 11:55 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
highflyer Offline


Registered: 07/09/11
Posts: 1875
Loc: East Texas
MN,
What is the goal? If you talk to vertex and other diffuser manufacturers, they all have charted how much O2 their diffusers add to the water for a given CFM/depth. Are you trying to see something different. Please let us know.

Also. the fish will be consuming O2, how are you going to account for their usage?

Finally, I assume the BOW will be frozen over, or will there be water to air contact?
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#484232 - 12/18/17 01:03 AM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: highflyer]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 89
Loc: MINNESOTA
Originally Posted By: highflyer
MN,
What is the goal? If you talk to vertex and other diffuser manufacturers, they all have charted how much O2 their diffusers add to the water for a given CFM/depth. Are you trying to see something different. Please let us know.

Also. the fish will be consuming O2, how are you going to account for their usage?

Finally, I assume the BOW will be frozen over, or will there be water to air contact?


What is the goal?
I am trying to develop a reproducible science experiment in a frozen pond setting. Specifically testing for DO amounts diffused into a BOW over x amount of time using different intermittent solar direct drive aeration designs.

If you talk to vertex and other diffuser manufacturers, they all have charted how much O2 their diffusers add to the water for a given CFM/depth.
There is no data on this type of aeration system as aeration has never been done this way before.

Are you trying to see something different. Please let us know.
What I might have here is a way to aerate frozen water without the creation of thin ice. The safest way to aerate in the north. I had completed some proof of concept tests last winter but with the short winter last year I wasn't able to set up any "good science" reproducible testing.

Also. the fish will be consuming O2, how are you going to account for their usage?
Yes, the fish and the dying plant life will be consuming the DO. When running, with the bio loads, this system will keep the DO well above 8 or 9ppm in this pond setting (at least it did last winter but how much of that was because of photosynthesis). How long will the "banked DO" last once it is shut off? Once it drops to say 5ppm , how long does it take for the system to get the water back to the 8-9ppm?

Thanks for the response HF

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#484234 - 12/18/17 07:10 AM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5326
Loc: SE Kansas
Is the area small enough you could just cover it with a plastic tarp? Maybe a few floats or poles in the middle for support, in case the warmth under the tarp melted the ice.


Edited by snrub (12/18/17 07:11 AM)
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#484244 - 12/18/17 09:52 AM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12621
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
IMO You are going to need to add black dye until the DO drops to zero which indicates respiration is equal to or exceeding DO production. And then you still may have some natural production of DO. I think ideally, at the start zero DO should be maintained for at least 24hrs if not longer to verify DO production is minimal or equaling respiration. DO should be measured in every 6" of depth, if not shorter intervals. Photosynthesis and diffusion of oxygen from the atmosphere are two big producers of DO in natural waters. I'm not sure your plan is scientifically feasible in an atmospherically open exposed natural pond - too many variables IMO. IMO the best way to test DO production of a new diffuser system is to use the same methods or earlier studies. This makes data more comparable as in apples to apples.


Edited by Bill Cody (12/18/17 10:03 AM)
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#484286 - 12/18/17 07:23 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: snrub]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 89
Loc: MINNESOTA
Originally Posted By: snrub
Is the area small enough you could just cover it with a plastic tarp? Maybe a few floats or poles in the middle for support, in case the warmth under the tarp melted the ice.


The test site would be too big to cover it will a tarp but thank you for the thought

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#484287 - 12/18/17 07:26 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 89
Loc: MINNESOTA
Bill thank you for reading and given your inputs. As you suggest, it may be too much of an uncontrollable environment.

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#484299 - 12/18/17 09:01 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12621
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
You can still give the project a try. This will give you some experience and test data for the new system. At least you are aware of some of the variables.
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#484305 - 12/18/17 09:42 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: Bill Cody]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 89
Loc: MINNESOTA
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
You can still give the project a try. This will give you some experience and test data for the new system. At least you are aware of some of the variables.


Thanks again Bill and there will be a lot of testing done this winter wink

https://imgur.com/a/zScC7


Edited by MNFISH2 (12/18/17 09:45 PM)

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#487564 - 03/21/18 09:39 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 89
Loc: MINNESOTA
With winter almost over and all of our testing complete I wanted to pass on our failures. We have been so humbled this winter with regards to understanding aeration here in frozen waters of MN. Over a dozen ponds with fish populations being tested and monitored, my partner and I have successfully killed 3 of them. The auger and DO meter got its workout this year.

Shallow, highly eutrophic BOW's, and intermittent aeration are verrrrrrry complicated and challenging to sustain fish thru the winter. We are not giving up and have more ideas to try! Unfortunately, a simulated MN winter in the lab is way beyond our budget. So we wait for next winter

We had some limited successes on improved aerator mechanics in the frigid temps and thin ice safety features with our diffusers. Those features will be built into our next generation intermittent aerator and we will be excited to post pics with the system up and running.

Editorial: 17 years of doing small remote ponds here in MN and still I feel like an idiot. Maybe I should quit....no dam way! laugh

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#487578 - 03/22/18 08:47 AM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 894
Loc: in the mountains
Don't be a tease! Let's hear some of what you saw and learned!
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#487579 - 03/22/18 08:49 AM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 894
Loc: in the mountains
and I don't even want to hear about getting your butt kicked this Winter. Mother Nature didn't even have the decency to hand me mine on a silver platter. She served it up on card board!
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#500487 - 01/09/19 01:10 AM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 89
Loc: MINNESOTA
Thanks for the text Chad and the kind words!!!
It's been awhile since I posted here and have learned so much about winter aeration here in central MN. More questions than answers for sure but good stuff none the less (at least I think so). Problems defined, theories postulated, prototype systems built, tests conducted, and data collected. Sadly, product development was stopped this year due to a lack of market interest. Instead of letting the information die, I thought I would share some of the things we did and maybe spur a little winter time discussion.

It's been so long I don't remember how to post pictures! smile Once I figure that out, I will post pics of different designs we tested, our testing methods, and the results. I will give as much detail as people want. Disclaimer: These are just my experiences and I will tell you straight up, in the dozens of ponds we ran tests on, each one was unique. We did start to develop some patterns but not enough testing over enough years had been done to be conclusive. Ok, Onto the posting pic challenge

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#500488 - 01/09/19 01:28 AM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 89
Loc: MINNESOTA
test



Attachments
thumbnail_20171217_135519_resized.jpg (55 downloads)
thumbnail_20171217_130753_resized.jpg (45 downloads)



Edited by MNFISH2 (01/09/19 01:32 AM)

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#500504 - 01/09/19 01:06 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 894
Loc: in the mountains
MNFISH!!

Great to see you post man!! I am all ears on your input on Winter aeration! I do not like and am sorry to hear that product development ceased.

How about some info on the device in the pic? It looks interesting.

As far as posting pics, I am using Imgur.com and I am very satisfied with it.
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#500505 - 01/09/19 01:10 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
hobbyman Offline


Registered: 11/22/13
Posts: 67
Loc: Lawrence County, PA
Interesting MNFISH2. Is that direct drive aeration with a containment structure to keep the ice "thinning" effect to a minimum? Thank you for passing the info along!
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#500531 - 01/10/19 01:08 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 89
Loc: MINNESOTA
Got the picture stuff fixed thanks to wbuffetjr. My format going forward will be random and most likely completely unorganized. When I get time, I will add content. Simply a download of information as I remember it or others ask (about 18yrs of experiences in total so this could take awhile). Hope this helps my fellow brothers/sisters in the country of frozen waters!

Pictured below shows one pond set up that was intended to:

1) Give us a "controlled" lab setting. And I use the word control very loosely here!!

2) Test different direct drive, solar powered, bottom diffuser systems. Changing the amount of input power generated by the array, run times in cloud cover,compressors and very cold temps, ect.

3) Assist in the creating of an aerator system that would reduce the risks associated thin ice.





Edited by MNFISH2 (01/10/19 01:09 PM)

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#500532 - 01/10/19 01:34 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 89
Loc: MINNESOTA
Everything we have done and tested was with solar powered systems with no batteries.

Notice the picture below shows the system right after it was installed. The picture in the previous post show it after a couple of days and "froze" into position.

The system pictured in the previous post and this post, uses both bottom diffusion along with forced air. The diffuser moves water up the water column (like a traditional system) into the "hatch". While that is happening an air blower pushes air into the hatch across the open water. Inside the hatch is where the O2 infusion and pond gases exchange is happening. The system maintains open water 24/7 with runs times of 3-4 hrs/day on average. The cover of the system which is not shown in the pictures below (the hatch cover) contains the inline blower. If you look at the photo in the previous post, you can see the ports labeled. The inline blower is pumping ambient air across the water. It would be comparable to a 20-25mph wind across an open body of water.





Edited by MNFISH2 (01/10/19 01:44 PM)

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#500533 - 01/10/19 03:53 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 894
Loc: in the mountains
What is not to love! Looks simple and effective!
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#500534 - 01/10/19 05:02 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
DrLuke Offline


Registered: 06/04/15
Posts: 368
Loc: Grinnell, IA
So awesome! I can imagine it would be tough to quantify the DO rise for the whole body of water, but could you tell any 'practical' impact on fish survival? Or did you get any formal data (net or seine survey, shock survey, et al) on fish number and class sizes?

This may be proprietary info, so if so, just ignore me. Thanks for sharing what you have!
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#500535 - 01/10/19 05:14 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5710
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Very cool! So is the whole rig sitting on kind of a miniature floating "dock" so it follows the water/ice level?


Edited by Bill D. (01/10/19 05:16 PM)
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#500550 - 01/11/19 10:58 AM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: MNFISH2]
hobbyman Offline


Registered: 11/22/13
Posts: 67
Loc: Lawrence County, PA
That's impressive. First time i've seen the blower moving air across the open water concept. Novel and original. Thanks again for sharing.
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#500556 - 01/11/19 05:35 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: hobbyman]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 89
Loc: MINNESOTA
Originally Posted By: hobbyman
Interesting MNFISH2. Is that direct drive aeration with a containment structure to keep the ice "thinning" effect to a minimum? Thank you for passing the info along!


It did prevent the "thinning" effect and makes it so you can walk right up to the aerator without the fear of thin ice for most of the winter. As am sure you aware, its those 6+ inch snows that become scary with intermittent aeration. Animals or people walk onto that ice not knowing how little is underneath them. This concept was designed to eliminate that fear. As spring approaches, it did open up around the system

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#500558 - 01/11/19 06:19 PM Re: DO Experiment Design Help [Re: DrLuke]
MNFISH2 Offline


Registered: 06/06/16
Posts: 89
Loc: MINNESOTA
Originally Posted By: DrLuke
So awesome! I can imagine it would be tough to quantify the DO rise for the whole body of water, but could you tell any 'practical' impact on fish survival? Or did you get any formal data (net or seine survey, shock survey, et al) on fish number and class sizes?

This may be proprietary info, so if so, just ignore me. Thanks for sharing what you have!


We did quite a bit of DO testing along with the mechanical iterations. And as you might expect, it was difficult to eliminate variables to produce solid test data. We did, however, discover how important open water is to aerating a highly Eutrophic pond. The compressor pushing the bubbles does very little as compared to the ambient air to water interface.

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