Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Observations

I actually slowed down and did some serious fishing this last weekend. By serious, I mean I used minnows. I fished 2 ponds. Nothing in them will hit any kind of artificial lure.

First, I fished a 3/4 acre pond on a new place I am buying. It is 3 years old and seldom fished. It is essentially a round bowl with no structure. At one time, I fished it pretty hard and killed over 100 baby bass. It was originally stocked with small bass by a helpful(?) neighbor before I got involved. We seined and added a staggering number of bluegills and fatheads from a forage pond I was using. Everything looked good. Then a week ago I went by and threw some feed and noticed a shortage of bluegills and some small bass. This weekend, in 1 hour, I caught about a dozen bass. 4 went over my shoulder onto the bank, 4 went on a stringer and 4 (up to about 2.5 pounds) went back in. Lusk is right. A pond is like a garden. It has to be harvested and I have work to do.

The second is my one acre pond. It is about 4 years old and has hybrid LMB, channel cats and bluegills. Everything seems to be proportional. I only have about 20 large catfish left from my original 100. I'm trying to catch them but they are extremely hook shy. I threw out some floating pellets and the cats and bluegills started feeding voraciously. I tossed out my line with a minnow on a hook with no sinker and immediately caught a 15 inch bass. The catfish immediately stopped feeding. Those suckers are a lot smarter than bass. Anyway, I caught 3 more bass and quit.

Bass at both ponds look healthy with proportional bodies but that won't last unless I stay after things. First, I have to somehow get more of the catfish out from my 1 acre pond. They are from three to six pounds and that is an overload on a small body of water. Next, on the new place, I have to reduce my bass numbers and get ready to add forage in the spring. I will also quickly add some cedar trees.

Anybody have any idea how to catch catfish that won't bite worms, minnows, or prepared catfish baits?

On having to resort of live bait..... Dave see my post about raising bass in a 3/4 pond. Your experiences are typical for small ponds.

Dave,

Have you tried a trotline with any of the aforementioned baits? Sometimes just having the bait in the water, especially at night, is the ticket for finicky catfish.

Also, fresh livers are hard to keep on the hook, but if you put some on a grate sprinkle with garlic powder, and let the sun bake the for an afternoon or two, they get tough and will stay on hook. Umm...and by the way, wives tend not to appreciate this proccess to be carried out on their patio's.

Pedro
Channels love them.

Dave,

Have you tried a trotline with any of the aforementioned baits? Sometimes just having the bait in the water, especially at night, is the ticket for finicky catfish.

Also, fresh livers are hard to keep on the hook, but if you put some on a grate sprinkle with garlic powder, and let the sun bake the for an afternoon or two, they get tough and will stay on hook. Umm...and by the way, wives tend not to appreciate this proccess to be carried out on their patio's.

Pedro
Channels love them.

Dave instead of liver use gizzards they will stay on the hook forever. Fish on the bottom.

I have too many catfish in all my ponds. One thing I have noticed is that the more I fish while I am feeding, the more tolerant they become. One pond I fished while feeding all summer and can catch three or four at a time where as the other I rarely fish and can only catch one before they scatter. Also, the larger they get the more skiddish(sp) they become.

Bill, found your post. Thanks.

Pedro, I haven't tried a trotline since last year. Turtles helped themselves to the fish and I started helping myself to the turtles. Good idea.

Bill, good idea on the gizzards. I just might try them. Dang things are too chewy to eat.

Of interest is that I tried for years to come up with the worlds best catfish bait. My daughters kept the grandchildren away from what they called my alchemy lab. They said nasty things about possible mutations and future sterility. A neighbor tried to borrow some to neuter his bull calves. I think other neighbors put him up to it. Mostly jealousy, I'm sure.

In my catfish pond, we use stinkbait and hotdogs to catch the catfish :0

Dave,
Would you describe your "forage pond"? Size, depth, structure and bottom, stocked with, etc... For the cats my choice is shrimp thawed and refroze a couple times, turning black, on the bottom. Thanks and best of luck.
al

The forage pond is/was a small 1/8 acre (approx) pond that is about 6 ft deep. It is old and silted in with no structure. I stocked with 100 2 to 3 inch bluegills and one pound of fathead minnows. Within one year, I had a DO crash and minor dieoff from biomass problems. We seined a couple of times but then I couldn't get anyone on the other end of the seine so I let it go. They kept spawning and fouled the water. It turned dark green and nasty looking. Almost everything died. Later it dried up and has now refilled. However, weeds grew in it during the drought and upon refilling, the water turned black. I've put 25 more bluegills in and they have nested but I really haven't seen any indication of the eggs hatching. In the spring, I'll restock with fatheads and bluegills just to see what happens. I have learned that forage ponds cannot be ignored with losing everything. Bluegills and fatheads are just too prolific. I put some in a small 20 x 30 water hole to control mosquito larvae. I put about 20 in and must have seined 500 or more out before it dried up.

I'm going to try some more stuff next year. I know of a guy that has way too many bullfrogs. I'm going to buy eggs from him and try to get them established. We have none in North Texas. He said that he started out with some eggs 3 or 4 years ago and now frogs abound for miles around. I'm also going to retry crawdads but try to find a supplier other than the grocery store.

Dave, sounds like you finally had some fun instead of working ! Here's an idea for your catfish problem. Get your hands on a couple of cane poles, the long bamboo ones in one piece. They are a LOT easier to manage that a trot line in a pond your size. Set the line about the depth of your pond, hook a bgill thru the tail, and chunk the whole thing into the middle and just let it float around. It's hilarious when you get one on, and they are really easy to rebait too. You won't catch them all at once, but in a week, you should do some damage. If the bgill are hooked above the spine, they should last about a day without dying. p.s. I'm jealous of your bass, next spring my adults will be responsible for producing my initial spawn, I have NO babies to throw up on the bank ! But, I do have "natural bullfrogs" that must have hopped from my neighbors pond 500 yds. away

Dave, also, what kind of bass do you have in there that won't hit lures ? Where did you get them ?

Dave,
Get a 5 gallon plastic bucket with a lid, I use the kind that chlorine comes in for my pool. Fill about 2/3 full of chicken scratch (you can buy a 25lb bag for about $4 at the feed store) poor in one packet of yeast and put just enough water in to cover. In about 2 or 3 days it will ferment and sour, throw out about half a gallon. Buy some punch bait (Bills Catfish Bait or Hog Wild at Walmart, be sure and buy the treble hooks that come with a sponge around them) dip the sponge and hook in the bait (I use a small stick for this, you do not want this stuff on your hands) and throw out where you spread the soured grain. In a pond the size of yours it should not take long for the catfish to come in, 10-30 minutes. I would use a cork and be sure to spread your soured grain out so the wind will blow the smell across the pond to attract the fish. This should help you catch them is short order.

Eastland, I have different bass in the 2 ponds. In the one I'm buying, it was stocked with natives from a close by tank with stunted fish. Interestingly enough, the runt bass took off with a growth spurt when they were put in an uncrowded environment with lots of groceries. The biggest one I caught was about 21 inches. It went back in. None of the fish at the source pond go over 10 inches.

On my original water hole, I bought what I was told were Florida/native crosses from a fish truck at the feed store. However, I have talked to some pro's that are skeptical about the crosses. One told me that he sent some samples to A & M for testing and that only about 60% came back with and kind of Florida genes. And these were some that he picked up at a hatchery. I would probably be skeptical unless I got my stockers from Lusk, Harold Arms in Dublin or from Tyler.

Fishinglth, I have tried suckering cats with soured grain at lakes and it has worked. I just haven't tried it in my small one acre stock tank. There may be some advantage to getting their gastric juices flowing.

Dave, thanks for the response, the reason I asked about the bass is that time and time again I read about Fla. & F1's being more hook shy. I do want to grow my fish big, but I would rather catch and release fish on a consistent basis (i.e. to cull & gather RW stats) than to play the guessing game. I'll stock more natives if lures work better on them, minnows aren't readily available where I'm at, and I love topwater fishing. p.s. did you see Cecil's post about his well output ? Makes a Texan sick doesn't it !!! I always forget to think about "region" when posting stuff, hope my 2 cents doesn't lead others astray ! How long would it take you to fill your pond with your well ? At least you have one, mine is still in the works...hoping for 10 gpm.

Without doubt, the biggest disappointment I've had in my new 3.5 acre lake, is the Florida bass and the degree to which they "learn" about lures. I fly fish almost exclusively but even very good conventional fisherman have a very difficult time catching my bass. The only way they can be caught is to use the small bluegill they feed on as live bait.
Very disappointing. Over time I'm introducing natives in the hope that this "learning" can be overcome. Knowing what I know today, I would never stock a Florida, or F1 or anything with any Florida genes...they just aren't worth it for me.

The subject of Florida Bass being hard to catch is very interesting to me, and has come up several times in the past and I have recused myself from the discussion.

My persopnal experience does not bear this out, so I brought up the subject with Bob Waldrop, fisheries biologist and owner/operator of Tyler Fish Farm.

He strongly disgrees with the premise that Florida and F-1 LMB are harder to catch than natives.

His views are supported by research studies conducted by Texas Parks and Wildlife independently and in conjuction with Oklahoma Wildlife. He produced the documentation but I failed to note the publications.

I am sure he would discuss the subject further if asked.

He is a advertising supporter of PB and his telephone number is listed on the products page if anyone is interested.

PS:
Another thought and qualification of personal experience with Florida and F-1 LMB:
My experience is based on fishing Lake Fork Texas from the initial stocking of Floridas some 20 years ago, and for many years until it became popular and overcrowded.

My experience with pond stocked natives is limited to the past three years.
We only introduced pure Floridas a year ago and 6 – 12 inch LMB are easy to catch, whatever their genetics.

Our large natives have become almost impossible to catch until my latest discovery - our LMB have become pellet trained…!

The last two weeks we have "hooked” but not landed 4, 3 lb class LMB with 5-6 bluegills lodged in their gullets, after feeder operation and ensuing frenzy.

To my surprise I have caught 2 LMB in the 3 lb class on PomPom (pellet) flies….!

George,

My experience is certainly not scientific...but I can catch 15 to 20 native bass on my fly rod from a 1 acre pond just about any time I want...and I can not catch a Florida bass from my 3.5 acre pond which is only about 300 yards away. I can actually see the Florida bass; they will often follow me around the shore line hoping I will catch a bluegill they can grab. Its not scientific, but I doubt anyone could convince me that Florida bass bite like natives. I will never have another one.

Meadowlark,
I certainly respect your opinion, and your pond managing experience surpasses mine. I do think the scientific studies are relevant however.

Our hard to catch mature native LMB fish are well fed with high protein pellets and abundant bluegills of all sizes.

I can go to our neighbors pond and catch native bass on every cast, but he has no supplemental feeding or harvesting program.

Do you think the amount of forage and/or supplemental feeding could make a difference?

George,

Yes, it is certainly logical that the feeding/forage is part of the equation...and even maybe the dominant part. In the case I cited, there is no supplemental feeding in the pond where I catch the natives easily and on the other hand, in the larger pond with the Floridas, lots of supplemental feeding, tremendous bluegill population, not to mention Tilapia. You may be right, it may not be the genetics, but the forage availability. I guess I need to start starving those Florida bass.

The more I learn, the less I know....but that makes this interesting. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

This may go down in history as one of the dumber posts...but here goes.

I have two larger ponds with bluegill populations. One pond has 260 BG, all males. The other pond has 125 BG, either sex, with a young-of-the-year population mixed in. We watch these fish with an Aquavue camera ocassionally. It seems like these bluegill have two feeding modes. One is "attack first, ask questions later", the other is "inspect, then ingest or reject". I've seen both modes in action many times. The bluegill in the all male pond always "inspect and reject". The bluegill in the mixed pond use the "attack mode" most often, I'm surmising because they will get their butts whooped by the young of the year fish if they don't. Consequently the pond with 260 adult fish is, ironically, a lot harder to catch fish in than the pond with 125 fish.

I can imagine a scenario where a largemouth bass that lives in a world where feed is a little more scarce, and gets his tail kicked ten or twelve times in a row would go into the attack mode out of necessity. If you accept the notion that all artificial lures look a little fake, this bass wouldn't have time to make a differentiation and ends up getting caught. The largemouth who has regular access to pellets and a little less competition for food can make his brief inspection and probably, more often than not reject the offering.

Eastland, Yep, I envy people who have productive wells. Mine only produces 1/2 gallon per minute. I have a 2,500 gallon holding tank. The tank is absolutely necessary because we time my wifes showers by the calendar instead of the clock. Lusk gets, I think, 150 gallons per minute and is only about 50 miles from me. I just have a lousy aquifer on my land. As far as minnows, I think I'll buy some fatheads and put them in a small pond I have. Then just trap or seine them.

See the mess you started Dave ? This is turning out to be one of those posts that starts easy, and ends up with everyone scratching their heads ! I was poking a little fun at Cecil, I'm jealous of those big wells too. Also, did you hire a dozer for your forage pond ?

As for aggressive bass, I like Bruce's post, and was wondering if you would chime in on your forage base. You mention pellets, how often are you feeding ? I'm betting that you have more than enough food since your catfish won't bite worms, minnows, or prepared catfish baits !!! ;D
Maybe the F1's taught your catfish to "inspect". Too funny, but your fish are very finicky, I think you have them spoiled What are you feeding them ?

Hey Dave,

Does your wife know how you measure the length of her showers?

Calm down, everyone. After all, it's not the size of a man's well that matters, it's how he uses it.