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#496936 - 09/28/18 07:13 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 958
Loc: in the mountains
Thanks guys!

Tracy - I should have included some of the Summer data to compare. Here is a couple readings from the Summer. Surface water temps were the highest I've personally ever seen up there. Including recent data as well for easier comparison.



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#496937 - 09/28/18 07:24 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2740
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Big difference in DO now verses then. Any chance the meter was not calibrated at the time of the higher DO readings or maybe it needs to be cleaned to get the most recent readings? It may not be comparing apples to apples when looking at my E Texas pond but the only experience I have with DO reading are my personal surveys. I know when my water temps are high the DO is lower than when my water temps are cooler. My winter and early spring readings will show DO in the 9+ range during the winter when water temps are say 55 to 65. Any way it might be the DO meter? Does not make much since to me, that the higher DO was in higher water temps.


Edited by TGW1 (09/28/18 07:35 AM)
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#496958 - 09/28/18 03:25 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 958
Loc: in the mountains
Tracy
I don't know. It is a YSI optical DO meter. I haven't ever calibrated it or anything. Looking at the pattern from last year to this year makes me think it's something with the water. The surface DO was higher last Summer than it was last Sept and then it does the same again this year. IMO, that doesn't strike me as calibration.

When I took the last readings the water is still a really emerald green color. It doesn't appear to have cleared up at all. I would estimate the visibility to be the same as it was this Summer so it doesn't seem like plankton die off either.
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#496980 - 09/29/18 06:42 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2740
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
Well, I set here this morning pretty much stumped. This may sound stupid but the only thing I can come up with is the days are longer in July and August which would produce more sunlight for a longer period of time and I would think that might produce more oxygen producing algae. Sounds pretty stupid, when thinking the longer days would produce more heat-hotter water-less O2. And that shows up when comparing afternoon sample verses morning sample. You are just going to have to find someone smarter than me, and that should not be hard to do smile Let us know what you come up with. Most likely something simple lol
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#496990 - 09/29/18 10:37 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Mike Whatley Offline


Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 927
Loc: Louisiana
That's what I think is called Aukums Razor (spelling) in which the simplest answer is usually the right one. (Saw that on big bang theory!!)
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#497026 - 09/30/18 12:23 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 958
Loc: in the mountains
Tracy - I hear you and feel pretty much the same.

I am assuming the simplest answer is it is from some kind of vegetative die off. I would just like to know WHAT exactly is dying off. I do not have much shoreline vegetation at all. The stuff I do have does not appear to be dying at all. Visibility seems the same as Summer so it doesn't seem like plankton is dying.
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#497084 - 10/01/18 08:49 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill Cody Offline
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YSI optical DO meters are supposed to be very accurate, thus the meter is likely okay. If you have the meter measure the surface oxygen in another local water body that is 'normal' and high near 8-10ppm. Or - if meter is at the cabin then when you return check DO in another very clear pond/lake to verify meter is reading a high DO.

Heavy cloud cover and storms on the previous day of the DO check probably reflects low DO production from the previous cloudy day and night.

Emerald green water with a dense algae amount in the pond could be having an influence on the DO due to more or lots of respiration and less photosynthesis. Next time there, check the surface DO at mid afternoon on a sunny day and the test it in the early morning just after sunrise when DO should be low compared to mid day; compare the two readings. This should give a rough estimate of the DO increase due to photosynthesis. Aerators appear to be mixing well the water column top to bottom. Aerators could be mixing low DO deep water throughout the pond during the day keeping DO at all depths lower. Amount of DO production due to photosynthesis will depend on the algae density (numbers per ml). Light penetration will not be very deep in emerald green water causing more respiration deep compared to DO production in the surface shallow layer from photosynthesis. Do you have a homemade secchi disk to get a clarity measurement? Secchi disk can be a rough estimate of algae density for comparison purposes.


Edited by Bill Cody (10/02/18 11:59 AM)
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#497202 - 10/04/18 09:06 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 958
Loc: in the mountains
Bill,

As always thank you for the insight. Unfortunately, the meter is at the cabin so I will have to check it out next Summer.

Highflyer came up this Summer with his Secci disk and we got some readings. I had to ask him because I didn't remember for sure. Our deepest reading was ~32" and the average was a little less than that.
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#497232 - 10/05/18 09:26 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill Cody Offline
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With a secchi disk reading of 32" in emerald green water expect natural DO production to 5' to 6' deep. This means lots of DO consuming respiration is going on at night and during cloudy days which is why your DO reading were relatively low of 3.5 to 4.6ppm.
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#497315 - 10/08/18 03:33 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 958
Loc: in the mountains
Thanks again Bill!

I didn't take a Secchi reading in September but clarity seems the same as it was in July. What would cause my DO numbers to change so much from July to September each year?

In other news....

"Winter is coming!"


Edited by wbuffetjr (10/08/18 03:42 PM)
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#497326 - 10/08/18 08:28 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill Cody Offline
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With light penetration of 32" and a pretty dense phytoplankton community (bloom) I think noticeable DO fluctuation would occur depending on amount of sunlight the surface receives. Remember the water column circulation you have will move the surface DO production due to phytoplankton photosynthesis throughout the water column. This will keep the surface DO lower compared to non-aerated pond. At least this is my explanation. Also in July the water was warmer at 65-70F compared to Sept of 49-54F and maybe the phytoplankton produced more oxygen in warmer water? Temperature and lack of sunlight may have acted together? Only a guess.


Edited by Bill Cody (10/08/18 08:35 PM)
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#497341 - 10/09/18 08:41 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 958
Loc: in the mountains
Got it, thanks Bill!

Do you think my phytoplankton will die off at some point when water temp falls to a certain level or will it take the pond icing over enough to block sunlight?

Hoping to get my buddy up there in a week or two to get another DO reading.
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#497342 - 10/09/18 09:48 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill Cody Offline
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Phytoplankton growth depends a lot of the nutrient load and continual fluctuation of those nutrients that 'feed' the community. The two main growth nutrients are nitrogen and phosphorus, but don't forget about the other required macro and micro nutrients. The species composition of phytoplankton changes weekly if not daily due to various influences on the community. There are species that are adapted to thrive in all water temperatures. Nutrient loads and specific nutrient requirements of the species determine the density of algae. Don't expect a die off as water temperatures decrease unless the nutrients significantly decrease or the species encounter a limiting factor. When one most abundant specie dies out due to a limiting factor another specie with slightly different requirements is usually waiting to take its place. Again, total density is usually determined by nutrient availability.


Edited by Bill Cody (10/09/18 09:57 AM)
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#497657 - 10/18/18 04:12 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 958
Loc: in the mountains
Buddy went up to our place on Friday to check on things. He was able to grab a quick DO reading while he was there. He didn't take the boat out so couldn't get data from very deep. We were at 6.5ppm at 1' and 4.5ppm at 5'. Unfortunately, he did not pay attention to water temp. 1/2HP Thomas 2660 running for 9.5 hours. 5:30am to 3:00pm.

At this point I have to think my DO numbers are down from last year due to the fact I am running a 1/2HP pump instead of the 1 HP pump. We have had some cloudy/rainy/snowy weather here recently so possible all the cloudy days reduced DO as well. It just seems DO was down all year.

Have already had first ice on the water and snow of the season up there. Much earlier than last year. The ice had already melted off the water by later that afternoon.



Below, Hole open from windmill

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#498663 - 11/12/18 08:23 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 958
Loc: in the mountains
I would LOVE to get a DO reading, but can't get anyone up there. No idea how thick the ice is. Don't really know anything other than what can be gathered from the pic. Smaller pump running and smaller hole open than last year. No signs yet of any condensation build up showing in the AMPs drawn so that's a very good thing!

Running a quad and dual vertex in ~20' of water off a 1/2HP Thomas 2660. 9.5 hours per day run time.

"Winter is coming!"
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#498666 - 11/12/18 10:37 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 2009
Loc: West Michigan
The open water in the background of this picture, is that from the windmill? What type of diffuser setup does the windmill run? It probably produces bubbles all the time since you probably have wind all the time?

The quad and the dual they are in 2 separate locations but both driven by the electric pump with solar power driving them on a timer. Do they produce 2 separate holes in the ice and where are those holes in the picture above?

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#498669 - 11/13/18 08:12 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 958
Loc: in the mountains
Canyon the big hole in the background is from the two solar driven diffusers. We put the quad and the dual in the deepest water just far enough apart that they could still keep one giant hole open.

Both of my windmills have vertex diffusers. The koenders has a single vertex because it will only make 2 CFM in max wind and I think it's average is much less than that. The frozen over circle this side of the big hole is from the Koenders. The Koenders kept a VERY small hole open for most of the Winter last year.
The American Eagle windmill has a dual vertex on it, but it has already frozen closed. Hopefully it reopens soon. I put the Eagle in a spot I THOUGHT would be better, but it hasn't turned out that way and moving it is a big job. If I didn't have the solar aeration, moving the Eagle would be at the top of the list.
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#498909 - 11/23/18 12:31 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 958
Loc: in the mountains
Buddy went up and got some DO data for me. Unfortunately he didn't get down very deep. Only got to 8', but I am super grateful for the data. I think we are doing pretty good so far. In my mind the big test is making it through January with no malfunctions in the system. That is when we failed last year.

I found it very interesting that we are already at 6" of ice and water temps are 37 degrees. Crust of snow on the ice.

Highflyer and I have been kicking around some ideas for next year on when to run the 1HP pump and when to switch to the 1/2HP pump. For example, run the 1HP pump Spring and Fall. Run the 1/2HP Summer and Winter. Keep gathering data and tweak accordingly.

I'd like to get some thoughts on how you guys think we look.



Edited by wbuffetjr (11/23/18 12:35 PM)
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#498912 - 11/23/18 05:07 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill Cody Offline
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Water appears to be is great shape so far.
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#498923 - 11/25/18 08:51 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 958
Loc: in the mountains
Thanks Bill! I've got my fingers crossed!
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#499406 - 12/06/18 02:21 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 958
Loc: in the mountains
It's starting to look a lot like Christmas!

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#499417 - 12/06/18 04:35 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill Cody Offline
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It is interesting that the windmills do not have any open water holes above the diffusers in this early winter period. Open water is from the solar aeration system.
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#499469 - 12/07/18 06:12 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 958
Loc: in the mountains
Bill,

We have had some really good snow recently. If I had to guess the windmills just got over run with all the new snow. I looked back at some older pics from Winter 2015/16 and 2016/17. Both of those Winters the windmills really struggled to keep visible holes open for large parts of December, January and February. I think maybe part of the reason the Koenders did well last year was because of the lack of snow. We had basically zero snow until mid January. Maybe the Koenders hole is just bridged over by snow??

Now that we are having a more normal Winter the solar is somewhat struggling to keep up. We have had lots and lots of clouds and several times the remote monitoring program for the solar has indicated the panels were covered in snow. When the sun came out it took a little time to melt the snow off the panels and start charging. Not too worried about it currently as it should refill quickly once we have a good sunny day. Looking like a good day for sun for the next two days.
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#499909 - 12/24/18 12:29 PM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 958
Loc: in the mountains
Well, some slightly bad news. I am convinced we are once again battling condensation issues! Yes, it sucks. I thought we had it solved, but it is starting to look like it is not completely solved. I think it is substantially improved over last year, but not completely solved. The hole over the solar aeration appears to be closing up on me. Got a buddy going up hopefully soon to see about blowing out some condensation, running some alcohol through and collecting some data. If the hole improves after this we know we are battling condensation. As far as data, I would obviously like to get some DO numbers. We are also gonna get him to take a laser thermometer up and measure the ground temps in the valve box and the ground temps in the crawl space of the solar shed just so we start to get an idea of what we are up against.

Side note: the windmill hole has improved.


Possible solutions:
1) Check where weighted lines enter the water and make sure we do not have any "P Traps" there in shallow water that are collecting water and freezing.
2) Condensation trap in the crawl space of the solar shed. Highflyer and I talked about building an ~10" aluminum tube with baffles that could collect condensate and send it to a low point. Make a pin hole in the low point that would constantly bleed air and condensate as well. If we find the crawl space is no where near freezing this type of setup should have no problems.
3) Second condensate trap just before the valves in the valve box. Would have to be a smaller version, but it would have a pin hole as well that would constantly bleed out the condensate.
4) Timer controlled power wire ran from solar shed to the valve box and put some heat wire around the valves and out going weighted lines.

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#499997 - 12/27/18 11:02 AM Re: 8 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s [Re: wbuffetjr]
hobbyman Offline


Registered: 11/22/13
Posts: 78
Loc: Lawrence County, PA
I've been following this for quite a while, as I have a similar problem on a much smaller scale. Great post and info.

How about a timer based alcohol "injection" pump? Or maybe a condensate trap with a vertical riser (flat black aluminum would be best) that would extend above ground, drop temperature of compressed air and freeze out water, then heat up when the sun hits it and melt the ice back out. It would have to be somewhat large to catch enough water without plugging, and the base would need to be below the frost line to let the water out after it thaws. But it might drop the temp enough to keep the water from freezing out farther down the line.

Maybe one of the air compressor type condensate drains with a built in timer would work with less air loss / plugging potential.

Best of luck - we're still not frozen here yet, but we lost all of our fish in one pond last year. Keeping my fingers crossed.
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