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Carbohydrates are bad for LMB...

I am guessing that the digestible carbohydrate percentage in that feed is above 13%...

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13% may also be too high, especially when taking into account cold winters where we are and further north. We just ran a trial with northern BG, 13% clearly causing a potential problem with that species.


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Agree with Jim. BG and LMB do not constructively use carbs much. Some pond fish do - like CC , Carp , some forage minnow type fish and oddly HSB which can get obese on carbs (not good to get obese). Also the closer the protein to the natural forage of a fish the better. The ideal protein concept is based on the premise that if the amino acid profile of the feed mimics the whole-body amino acid profile of the animal being fed, protein utilization and growth should be maximized.



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Ahhh! So one group fends for itself on pond foods. But you said you are trying to find a cheaper way to grow LMB to two pounds. Will that comparison be made between trout feed and some other prepared feed?

I've always thought that it is not possible to improve on the quality of foods that mother nature provides from the nutrition standpoint. The fish not eating pellets must expend more energy for the food they get. Their food is concentrated with the nutrients they need and few (if any) of those they don't need. They are fitter and healthier even if they are smaller.


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On the growout side no comparisons involving feed being made. Comparisons based on other factors during pond versus tank rearing. The problem appears with all commercial diets I have messed with to date. In the end I think formulated diets can match forages, just not there yet and not part of current objectives. Just getting a little insight as a byproduct of current work.

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Centrarchid Jim - Have you explored or tried using the feeds in the Optimal Fish Food Family? One of their objectives is to formulate the healthiest foods for growing fish for the long term and trophy sizes. Bass diet is 44%/8%fat - nutrient rich low fat diet, designed to increase longevity

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Currently trying to communicate with a supplier of one of their feed-stuffs. We know where science stands on nutritional requirements of LMB and BG's; we are trying push it ahead.

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Centrarchid,

This is a fantastic thread and a very active area of interest for us at Optimal. We are happy to answer questions or assist where we can. Please feel free to shoot me a call, text, or email!

-Dustin

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Dustin,

We (includes Centrarchid) will be working with Bluegill where we are trying to use a more refined soybean product to get around some cost and health issues associated with current formulations. We just ran a Bluegill trial using more practical ingredients where we manipulated type and amounts of carbohydrate. Manuscript ready for submission on those findings. Bluegill, like LMB, have trouble managing carbohydrates. The grain side of formulations are likely causing the problem we currently see in our production ponds every year. We have resources in place to work with Bluegill over this winter indoors with small fish starting around 2". We are trying to drum up resources to do a larger parallel effort involving LMB where we treat 4" to 10" separately from fish being finished in the second year. It takes two growing seasons for us to hit 2 lbs and the second year has by far the highest feed cost. Research typically concentrates on smaller fish because easier / faster. We have resources to tackle fish approaching 2 lbs.

Jim


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I do not know what the relative cost or availability is of fish meal compared to plant based protein, but the amount of fish meal available on the market has to be a tiny portion of what plant based protein is available.

I can see where, through processing or other means, getting comparable results from a more plant based feed would be highly desirable from both an economic as well as possible sustainability standpoint.


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Fish meal is essentially a by product fisheries and aquaculture. Clearly aquaculture cannot produce enough for itself so ocean bycatch and byproduct are important. Right now this byproduct is cheap but if these sources prove unsustainable the cost of feed for LMB and BG would be destined to rise considerably to reflect supply of this crucial ingredient.

Soybean meal has already been used successfully in the production of tilapia in China. So it has promise. But tilapia are herbivores to begin with and for this source to have a major impact for carnivore feed, IMHO, will likely require genetic modification of soybeans or other type of modification of the feedstock.

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I think animal/insect protein is far more practical substitute LMB/BG food base than plant protein. Even then, fishmeal is hard to replace due to importance of taurine, IIRC.

Last edited by anthropic; 10/29/18 04:11 PM.

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Jim,

Very cool work. I'm excited to read your findings!!

We've done extensive work evaluating plant based proteins, especially soy. We've successfully grown salmonids on fish meal free diets on commercial scales using modified soy without common problems like enteritis or poor fcr.

Traditional feeds tend to view all ingredients on a protein basis and, to some extent, ignore the potentially bad components those ingredients bring with them. Starches are important to extrusion so they are difficult to eliminate completely...especially in a marketplace that likes floating feeds.

We work a lot with extrusion technology, feed formulations, and ingredient quality to design feeds around the nutrition and not the limitations of extrusion or least cost approaches.

I run a small extrutech extruder and make small test batches regularly. I'm happy to contribute what I can to aid in your research. This kind of work is very exciting and critical to improving feeds. Traditional feeds stem from markets where the goal is to grow fish quickly for human consumption...those are likely not the same diets that promote health and longevity. Shoot me an email and we can work out more details Dustin@optimalfishfood.com.

McDonalds is super cheap and sure helps increase my weight quickly...but I'm not sure its helps me in the long run.

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Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Fish meal is essentially a by product fisheries and aquaculture. Clearly aquaculture cannot produce enough for itself so ocean bycatch and byproduct are important. Right now this byproduct is cheap but if these sources prove unsustainable the cost of feed for LMB and BG would be destined to rise considerably to reflect supply of this crucial ingredient.

Soybean meal has already been used successfully in the production of tilapia in China. So it has promise. But tilapia are herbivores to begin with and for this to have a major impact for carnivore feed will likely require genetic modification of soybeans, IMHO. This is a worthwhile effort, probably, as soybeans that are better for LMB will like be more nutritious for humans also.


Asian carp from the Mississippi and Illinois rivers would be a great source for cheap(er) fishmeal. Someone should get with WIU to look into it http://www.wiu.edu/cas/biological_sciences/kibbe/index.php


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Where I am at the Asian Carps are not going to be an economical activity for someone if the end use is as a fishmeal at going prices for the stuff. Fishing for them is hard on your expensive equipment and labor intensive. Commercial fishers already have a tough time making a buck where the end use if for direct human consumption. The fishmeal use of the same harvest would support even a smaller return for the fisherman. Using subsidies to support the harvesting and processing is not likely to be popular with tax payers unless they see worthwhile benefits related to reduction of carp abundance. Many people care, but not enough when cost are considered. Do you want to raise taxes to support the effort?

Last edited by Jim Wetzel; 10/30/18 10:33 AM.

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I get what you're saying Jim.

I've wondered my whole life (I'm 68 now) about the problems created by common carp in many of our waters. I suppose commercial fishing and processing of these abundant, destructive pests has captured the attention of plenty of business-minded people over the years.

Properly designed capture methods could yield tonnage of carp for fish meal, for pet food, for fertilizer, etc. The question is what could these methods be!? I imagine nearly everything has been tried. Gill nets, electro-shocking, stupefying substances, traps, carp fishing derbies, on and on, come to mind. Refrigerated trucks or trailers stationed at collection points. Lots of other ideas.

And, I'd gladly pay a tax or an increase of my fishing license fee for effective carp reduction and the additional game fish populations that could result. In fact, I'd like to be able to earmark the license dollars I must contribute towards hatchery trout production to a cause of reducing carp. I'll take fewer hatchery "slimy" rainbows any day if it means fewer carp.

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7.5 Billion humans and counting. The challenges of feeding a growing population continue to mount. Innovations like the one's Jim and anthropic mention will be necessary to maintain per capita fish consumption. The crimp on resources will be pervasive and we have to think ahead as Jim's work indicates we already are doing.


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Originally Posted By: 4CornersPuddle
I get what you're saying Jim.

I've wondered my whole life (I'm 68 now) about the problems created by common carp in many of our waters. I suppose commercial fishing and processing of these abundant, destructive pests has captured the attention of plenty of business-minded people over the years.

Properly designed capture methods could yield tonnage of carp for fish meal, for pet food, for fertilizer, etc. The question is what could these methods be!? I imagine nearly everything has been tried. Gill nets, electro-shocking, stupefying substances, traps, carp fishing derbies, on and on, come to mind. Refrigerated trucks or trailers stationed at collection points. Lots of other ideas.

And, I'd gladly pay a tax or an increase of my fishing license fee for effective carp reduction and the additional game fish populations that could result. In fact, I'd like to be able to earmark the license dollars I must contribute towards hatchery trout production to a cause of reducing carp. I'll take fewer hatchery "slimy" rainbows any day if it means fewer carp.


Liberal, Tax and spend! Kidding.


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Originally Posted By: jpsdad
7.5 Billion humans and counting. The challenges of feeding a growing population continue to mount. Innovations like the one's Jim and anthropic mention will be necessary to maintain per capita fish consumption. The crimp on resources will be pervasive and we have to think ahead as Jim's work indicates we already are doing.



We also need to eat lower on the aquatic food chain and eat smaller critters as well. Later I will try to show some crayfish and silverside / minnow options we have had fun here with among the students.


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We had a similar issue back in 2005 when we were getting serious about raising feed-trained bass in several recreational ponds, starting with Richmond Mill Lake in North Carolina. I called Dr. Mark Griffin, nutritionist with Purina Mills then, and we started to brainstorm. We'd been feeding a salmonid feed, and were worried about fatty livers and big fat deposits in guts of bass. Mark studied it and began to build a feed to match the nutrition for bass via pellets. Long story, but he did it by altering the amount of fish meal, changing the fat type and amount, adjusting the vitamins and micronutrients and pretty soon he'd invented AquaMax Largemouth, the best commercially produced feed for feed-trained bass. Fish fed that diet aren't blue, and don't have the big amounts of gut cavity stores of fat or fatty livers. When feeding the salmonid feed, we'd see Wr's of 150-170. After he adjusted the feed, I was really comfortable with 115-130 Wr's. Fish gain is excellent with much less accumulated fat. But, we still have to remember we are dealing with a predator fish designed to make a living off live fish.


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Bob,

I've wondered if feed is lacking particularly in the nutrition required to grow fish in the dimension of length. Certainly, feed grows LMB and when preferred foods like fish are unavailable. Feed grows them much faster than a diet of crustaceans and insects as Jim's work shows.

I think it would be great to understand how the improvements in the feed formulation may have allowed or encouraged changes in feeding strategy. For example, were the feed rates in terms of pounds of feed continued at the prior rate? Or did the increased concentration of beneficial nutrients allow a reduced feed rate? Or perhaps did it alter the strategy by encouraging an increase in feed rate where fish grew longer faster albeit with less obesity.

From a feed supplier perspective, I wouldn't want to increase the cost of feed if I could if for no other reason to keep it affordable for those depending on it. We understand how the feed has improved the condition of fish, it would be useful to understand whether growth rates in weight and length were improved or to what extent these may have been sacrificed to produce healthier fish.


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Originally Posted By: jpsdad
Bob,

I've wondered if feed is lacking particularly in the nutrition required to grow fish in the dimension of length. Certainly, feed grows LMB and when preferred foods like fish are unavailable. Feed grows them much faster than a diet of crustaceans and insects as Jim's work shows.

I think it would be great to understand how the improvements in the feed formulation may have allowed or encouraged changes in feeding strategy. For example, were the feed rates in terms of pounds of feed continued at the prior rate? Or did the increased concentration of beneficial nutrients allow a reduced feed rate? Or perhaps did it alter the strategy by encouraging an increase in feed rate where fish grew longer faster albeit with less obesity.

From a feed supplier perspective, I wouldn't want to increase the cost of feed if I could if for no other reason to keep it affordable for those depending on it. We understand how the feed has improved the condition of fish, it would be useful to understand whether growth rates in weight and length were improved or to what extent these may have been sacrificed to produce healthier fish.


My efforts discussed at top of thread did not test that well. I can grow LMB's at the genetic maximum using invertebrates alone, but the quantity and quality of such invertebrae forage required simply is not practical even in recreational pond settings. I can get growth in relatively large bass using just water fleas but the bass are not real good at sifting the critters requiring extremely high densities of prey. Bass can do things by changing behaviors you seldom if ever see then they have larger options like fish or even pellets that at first glance appear easier to consume.


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Very interesting, particularly the part on water fleas.

Just be sure, I was implying that fish forage, in natural settings, if in sufficient supply, can grow LMB much faster than feed or invertebrate prey. Now this might be wrong as I've gleaned it from other's experience and studying other's research.

I would like to see more research on how hatchery feeding practices affect long term feeding behavior. I would think a 2lb bass is relatively dependent on feed if it were raised primarily on feed. It would be interesting to know how long it may take for one to make the transition to foraging BG.


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An interesting point on the length vs weight dynamics of LMB.


A number of years ago fisheries scientists studying trophy LMB and attempting to find a formula to accurately determine (estimate) weight based on length and girth made an interesting finding. There were after looking at thousands of trophy fish from diverse areas 2 distinct types of LMB (not talking about genetics here). The formulas devised used one calculation for short fish and another for long fish. All were very healthy and both formulas gave accurate weight results. Keep in mind that RW are just one measure and are based on a universal (set in time) average. I did not pursue this further at the time and never saw the specifics beyond the formulas.

As Jim noted LMB and other fish can adapt (plasticity) as that is in their genetics and that includes both feeding and nutrition. Some don't make it and others adapt and do. That is how a populations change over time.

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Originally Posted By: ewest
An interesting point on the length vs weight dynamics of LMB.

As Jim noted LMB and other fish can adapt (plasticity) as that is in their genetics and that includes both feeding and nutrition. Some don't make it and others adapt and do. That is how a populations change over time.


From what you said here it would seem there may lie opportunity in a kind of "Share a Lunker" program for hatchery feed trained LMB. Fin clipped feed trained fish that achieve trophy size without additional feed might contribute greatly to the genetics of hatchery fish destined for recreational use.

Last edited by jpsdad; 10/31/18 11:37 AM.

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