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#498152 - 10/31/18 01:19 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
ewest Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19920
Loc: Miss.
There is some research on the placing of feed trained LMB into existing populations of natural non-feed trained LMB. I have not looked at it in a while but the feed trained LMB did not do so well. There is other research that is not as conclusively negative. That is why if one is buying advanced LMB for stocking (6 inch or larger) that are feed trained it is better to get them that were placed into a growout pond at the hatchery including live forage. That is supplementally feed but not substantially reliant on feed.
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#498155 - 10/31/18 02:14 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Matzilla Offline


Registered: 08/12/16
Posts: 401
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Where I am at the Asian Carps are not going to be an economical activity for someone if the end use is as a fishmeal at going prices for the stuff. Fishing for them is hard on your expensive equipment and labor intensive. Commercial fishers already have a tough time making a buck where the end use if for direct human consumption. The fishmeal use of the same harvest would support even a smaller return for the fisherman. Using subsidies to support the harvesting and processing is not likely to be popular with tax payers unless they see worthwhile benefits related to reduction of carp abundance. Many people care, but not enough when cost are considered. Do you want to raise taxes to support the effort?


I don't think you would have to, Asian carp are already caught by commercial fishing nets up and down both rivers - the problem is there isn't a great demand for them, so they're often tossed back. If they were sold as a raw material for fish meal it would be a win win for all those involved. Some of the work WIU is doing focuses on tagging, tracking and telemetry to log the growth rates and migration patterns of Asian carp. When it comes to these fish invading Minnesota and the great lakes - several other agencies will get involved and those subsidies will come whether folks wish to pay or not. Look at zebra muscles...
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Mat Peirce
1.25 acre southeast Iowa pond
LMB, BG, YP, WE, HSB, RES, BCP

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#498159 - 10/31/18 02:59 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 281
Loc: Texas
Mat,

It's a too bad that there is no market for that bycatch. Also, it should be crime to put those fish back, I assume they are killing them first?

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#498160 - 10/31/18 03:24 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1834
Loc: East Texas, USA
Carp are considered highly desirable in some Asian markets, including much of China. With modern freezing tech, why not send them there? Also, could be a cheap source of protein for prisons.

Would love to turn a nuisance fish into a resource, including fish meal.
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8ac E Tx, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19





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#498162 - 10/31/18 04:06 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: anthropic]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 379
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Originally Posted By: anthropic
Carp are considered highly desirable in some Asian markets, including much of China. With modern freezing tech, why not send them there? Also, could be a cheap source of protein for prisons.

Would love to turn a nuisance fish into a resource, including fish meal.


That was tried somewhere in Kentucky, maybe a decade ago. Need to find out if they are still in operation. I personally do not want to export fish of a quality that would offend my buyers. The Missouri River here is not where I would want to get fish from if leg and digit number on kids to be kept normal.
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Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#498163 - 10/31/18 04:17 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Quarter Acre Offline


Registered: 06/10/16
Posts: 1408
Loc: West Central Missouri
I recently heard the story about the Asian carp invasion, true or not - that's for you to decide, but, the story goes...it started near Jefferson City on a fish farm that was growing Asian Carp for table fare. The flooding of 1993 took the fish and allowed them to get into the Missouri River. They liked it, liked it ALOT.

I have had the opportunity to eat the Asian carp from the Missouri and it was very good. Now, I can not put it up there with salmon, but it certainly competes with LMB, panfish, and CC. In fact, I have had some pretty muddy catfish before and have yet to have any carp that should have been thrown back. The only downside is all the bones...one of these days I will pressure cook some and eat without the fear of choking.

EDIT: Aside from the cook's talent, the main thing to do is to cut the more yellow belly meat off and discard and some fish will have a blood vein that runs down the lateral line that should be removed as well.
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#498164 - 10/31/18 04:24 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Quarter Acre]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1834
Loc: East Texas, USA
Yeah, I've heard the same thing about carp. Quite edible if cooked right, though I personally have never tried. Grew up thinking of them as trash fish, but Asians and Europeans disagree. I suspect wild caught carp from the US would taste better than farm raised in China, considering all the stuff they put in the water there!

In England, a live 30 lb carp used to be worth thousands (not sure if still does). Not for eating, but for sport, rather like a 14 lb largemouth here.


Edited by anthropic (10/31/18 04:26 PM)
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#498166 - 10/31/18 04:41 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
ewest Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19920
Loc: Miss.
While not seen in the US in many countries process all kinds of fish for human consumption. The use of large amounts of fish (mostly from the sea) for conversion to fish meal for feeding fish is in some places met with the accusation that you are using the fish for recreation (U S production) while third world peoples are starving. Much like the argument that using corn for fuel results in starving people.

I am not starting a political discussion so please don't go there. Just pointing out that some take that position and it can/may effect our access to enough fish meal.
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#498167 - 10/31/18 04:42 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Quarter Acre]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 379
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Originally Posted By: Quarter Acre
I recently heard the story about the Asian carp invasion, true or not - that's for you to decide, but, the story goes...it started near Jefferson City on a fish farm that was growing Asian Carp for table fare. The flooding of 1993 took the fish and allowed them to get into the Missouri River. They liked it, liked it ALOT.

I have had the opportunity to eat the Asian carp from the Missouri and it was very good. Now, I can not put it up there with salmon, but it certainly competes with LMB, panfish, and CC. In fact, I have had some pretty muddy catfish before and have yet to have any carp that should have been thrown back. The only downside is all the bones...one of these days I will pressure cook some and eat without the fear of choking.

EDIT: Aside from the cook's talent, the main thing to do is to cut the more yellow belly meat off and discard and some fish will have a blood vein that runs down the lateral line that should be removed as well.


Similar story I heard is that the source hatchery was in Arkansas. The original escapements occured back in the 1970's with low levels of natural reproduction occuring there after until the early 1990's when stars aligned and Bighead took off. Silver took of shortly their after. Ignoring Grass on this but they have been breeding since at least the 1980's where I have lived. The triploid rules on those came way too late. Black carp and Snakeheads will be in Missouri if not already present based on a stream biologist friend working for the MDC. They will be wild bred, not hatchery releases.
_________________________
Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#498171 - 10/31/18 05:34 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 281
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Jim Wetzel
Black carp and Snakeheads will be in Missouri if not already present based on a stream biologist friend working for the MDC. They will be wild bred, not hatchery releases.


That is an exceedingly unwelcome forecast. So are they (snakeheads) in the Mississippi river?

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#498181 - 10/31/18 08:48 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Bill Cody Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12887
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
If the Asian carps get into the Great Lakes there will be job creation and some job security for the commercial fishermen (netters) who could harvest trash fish for the fish meal market.
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#498184 - 10/31/18 10:15 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Bill Cody]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1834
Loc: East Texas, USA
Asian carps in the Great Lakes would be a catastrophe for the highly lucrative sports fisheries, which I strongly suspect would far outweigh any benefits from additional fishmeal.
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#498209 - 11/01/18 09:48 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: ewest]
jpsdad Offline


Registered: 05/20/18
Posts: 281
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: ewest
While not seen in the US in many countries process all kinds of fish for human consumption. The use of large amounts of fish (mostly from the sea) for conversion to fish meal for feeding fish is in some places met with the accusation that you are using the fish for recreation (U S production) while third world peoples are starving. Much like the argument that using corn for fuel results in starving people.

I am not starting a political discussion so please don't go there. Just pointing out that some take that position and it can/may effect our access to enough fish meal.


In the end, I think its an economy and the fish meal must go to the highest bidder. There are strong incentives to find an alternative for aquaculture from the standpoint of availability and cost. I haven't seen any evidence that private sport fisheries consume enough of it to cause an impact like those described. So while such arguments are given room to air it is doubtful that they will have any significant influence.

It is possible that alternatives may have the impact of easing fishmeal demand and help to keep it more affordable in the future. We will have to see.

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#498219 - 11/01/18 12:03 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
ewest Offline
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Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19920
Loc: Miss.
I agree !
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#498223 - 11/01/18 12:40 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: anthropic]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5463
Loc: SE Kansas
Many, many years ago when I used to competition spearfish in SW Missouri we were allowed to spearfish only rough fish which include carp.

Wife and I cleaned and took some home one weekend and she pressure cooked it. It came out similar in taste and texture to canned tuna in my opinion. Maybe a little blander.

We made sandwitches like tuna fish sandwitches would be made with mayo and it was fine.

Certainly edible.
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#498288 - 11/02/18 11:12 AM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Bill Cody Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12887
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Asian carp in the Great Lakes is worse than a catastrophe. There are already way too many invasive exotic species in the Great Lakes and the USA.
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#498297 - 11/02/18 01:10 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 2043
Loc: West Michigan
Catastrophe? please elaborate? Are we talking about lost money or not enough food to go around or the ecosystem?

There is always drama about how much damage is done by raising animals for food, and soon we will have lab-made, cultured but real chicken meat made into chicken nuggets and other products. I'm sure all the poultry farmers would describe it as a catastrophe while the environmentally concerned folks would make it a national holiday.

Lets get real, if the Asian carp are already caught above all the barriers then they have to be in the Great Lakes already. Then the balance gets out of balance and soon it gets back in balance only differently than we planned on.

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#498299 - 11/02/18 02:07 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 379
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Catastrophe for native species, some at least, folks making money of the lucrative sport fishery and those making living off current assemblage of commercial species that will more likely than not be hammered.

Lakes are going to go through further changes anyway as they warm up. At some point LMB and BG are going to take off I think and that will be a problem as well even if the Asian carps do not make it in.
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Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#498300 - 11/02/18 02:09 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19920
Loc: Miss.
Anytime an invasive species gets into an environment where it is an invader the potential for horrendous consequences exists. See cane toad or rabbits in Australia for example. I would say the Asian Carp is on the same scale.

Causing what is called a “trophic cascade”. For example, when American settlers wiped out wolves in Yellowstone National Park, this caused an increase in herbivores, which in turn led to a decrease in plants, which then caused a loss of birds.


Edited by ewest (11/02/18 02:22 PM)
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#498301 - 11/02/18 02:28 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 379
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
Current state of the Great Lakes not exactly natural.
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Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#498302 - 11/02/18 02:47 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19920
Loc: Miss.
No but it could get a lot worse if you get zebra mussels II (like a bad Halloween movie sequel) in the form of lots of A. carp.


Edited by ewest (11/02/18 02:52 PM)
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#498303 - 11/02/18 03:04 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
Jim Wetzel Offline


Registered: 08/16/17
Posts: 379
Loc: Holts Summit, MO
The carps are going to get in at some point. Possibly an accident, loss of political will to fund, or eco-terrorism.
_________________________
Aquaculture
Cooperative Research / Extension
Lincoln University of Missouri

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#498306 - 11/02/18 04:59 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5463
Loc: SE Kansas
About the only thing certain about the future is that things are going to change. Hopefully most of them for the better and not for the worse.
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John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

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#498308 - 11/02/18 05:31 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1834
Loc: East Texas, USA
Well, life has gone through warm periods and cold periods before. Those species that can't adapt perish; those that can flourish.

One thing I wonder is if rising atmospheric CO2 levels impact pond plants (faster growth) similarly to land plants. Also, does CO2 fertilization result in greater productivity of periplankton & phytoplankton?
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8ac E Tx, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19





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#498310 - 11/02/18 05:43 PM Re: Observation on Feed Fed Largemouth Bass [Re: Jim Wetzel]
anthropic Offline


Registered: 05/03/14
Posts: 1834
Loc: East Texas, USA
Well, life has gone through warm periods and cold periods before. Those species that can't adapt perish; those that can flourish.

I wonder if rising atmospheric CO2 levels impact pond plants (faster growth) similarly to land plants. Also, does CO2 fertilization result in greater productivity of periplankton & phytoplankton?
_________________________
8ac E Tx, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17. 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19





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